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Grenfell Tower
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userBulletguy
Posted: 10 November 2018 8:25 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


The special one

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pelmetman - 2018-11-10 7:21 PM

Bulletguy - 2018-11-10 7:14 PM

pelmetman - 2018-11-10 6:58 PM

Bulletguy - 2018-11-10 6:46 PM

Brian Kirby - 2018-11-10 12:53 PM

pelmetman - 2018-11-10 9:23 AM

Brian Kirby - 2018-11-09 10:13 AM

I don't think he even read my post, let alone the bbc link. Names, dogs etc. Woof Woof!


Just because our left wing academics try to rewrite history Brian ............

It doesn't mean you have to believe it ............

As I said earlier ......Communism, Nazism, Fascism are all the spawn of Socialism .........

They're all members of the same dysfunctional family who take it in turns to be top dog .........

Which is why Labour now has a communist lap dog in charge ..........

If you cant see the truth then you're clearly .......Barking .........

I'm not sure who it is that re-writing history.

Revisionist right wing fruit loops which has been pointed out to him before but he won't read and learn so his head is totally fuddled now he's even trying to claim it as an agenda by the left! To say he's batsh1t bonkers would be a gross understatement!

Where else has this 'Hitler was a socialist' tripe come from? No less than what it states in this article and spreads throughout the type of far right trash websites that feeds dummies who soak this drivel up.

"This revisionism has been gaining ground for years in the right-wing parallel universe in the United States."

https://www.abc.net.au/religion/nazism-socialism-and-the-falsification-of-history/10214302


There's no revision involved in my view of Socialist history Bullet ........

Although I'm not surprised to find "You" once again defending the indefensible ........

Do yourself a huge favour for once in your life......read that article over and over and learn something informative for a change. Your post is utter codswallop.


I did history years ago .......

Revisionism wasn't taught in schools...it wasn't on the curriculum. You won't read that article because you're in fear of it explaining what you prefer to remain in ignorance of.
userpelmetman
Posted: 10 November 2018 8:38 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


Walks with the gods

Posts: 26575
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Bulletguy - 2018-11-10 8:25 PM

pelmetman - 2018-11-10 7:21 PM

Bulletguy - 2018-11-10 7:14 PM

pelmetman - 2018-11-10 6:58 PM

Bulletguy - 2018-11-10 6:46 PM

Brian Kirby - 2018-11-10 12:53 PM

pelmetman - 2018-11-10 9:23 AM

Brian Kirby - 2018-11-09 10:13 AM

I don't think he even read my post, let alone the bbc link. Names, dogs etc. Woof Woof!


Just because our left wing academics try to rewrite history Brian ............

It doesn't mean you have to believe it ............

As I said earlier ......Communism, Nazism, Fascism are all the spawn of Socialism .........

They're all members of the same dysfunctional family who take it in turns to be top dog .........

Which is why Labour now has a communist lap dog in charge ..........

If you cant see the truth then you're clearly .......Barking .........

I'm not sure who it is that re-writing history.

Revisionist right wing fruit loops which has been pointed out to him before but he won't read and learn so his head is totally fuddled now he's even trying to claim it as an agenda by the left! To say he's batsh1t bonkers would be a gross understatement!

Where else has this 'Hitler was a socialist' tripe come from? No less than what it states in this article and spreads throughout the type of far right trash websites that feeds dummies who soak this drivel up.

"This revisionism has been gaining ground for years in the right-wing parallel universe in the United States."

https://www.abc.net.au/religion/nazism-socialism-and-the-falsification-of-history/10214302


There's no revision involved in my view of Socialist history Bullet ........

Although I'm not surprised to find "You" once again defending the indefensible ........

Do yourself a huge favour for once in your life......read that article over and over and learn something informative for a change. Your post is utter codswallop.


I did history years ago .......

Revisionism wasn't taught in schools...it wasn't on the curriculum. You won't read that article because you're in fear of it explaining what you prefer to remain in ignorance of.


re·vi·sion·ism
/r?'viZH??niz?m/Submit
nounDEROGATORY
a policy of revision or modification, especially of Marxism on evolutionary socialist (rather than revolutionary) or pluralist principles.

Kinda says it all .......Does it not.......Comrade .......

userBulletguy
Posted: 10 November 2018 9:07 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


The special one

Posts: 10212
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pelmetman - 2018-11-10 8:38 PM

Bulletguy - 2018-11-10 8:25 PM

pelmetman - 2018-11-10 7:21 PM

Bulletguy - 2018-11-10 7:14 PM

pelmetman - 2018-11-10 6:58 PM

Bulletguy - 2018-11-10 6:46 PM

Brian Kirby - 2018-11-10 12:53 PM

pelmetman - 2018-11-10 9:23 AM

Brian Kirby - 2018-11-09 10:13 AM

I don't think he even read my post, let alone the bbc link. Names, dogs etc. Woof Woof!


Just because our left wing academics try to rewrite history Brian ............

It doesn't mean you have to believe it ............

As I said earlier ......Communism, Nazism, Fascism are all the spawn of Socialism .........

They're all members of the same dysfunctional family who take it in turns to be top dog .........

Which is why Labour now has a communist lap dog in charge ..........

If you cant see the truth then you're clearly .......Barking .........

I'm not sure who it is that re-writing history.

Revisionist right wing fruit loops which has been pointed out to him before but he won't read and learn so his head is totally fuddled now he's even trying to claim it as an agenda by the left! To say he's batsh1t bonkers would be a gross understatement!

Where else has this 'Hitler was a socialist' tripe come from? No less than what it states in this article and spreads throughout the type of far right trash websites that feeds dummies who soak this drivel up.

"This revisionism has been gaining ground for years in the right-wing parallel universe in the United States."

https://www.abc.net.au/religion/nazism-socialism-and-the-falsification-of-history/10214302


There's no revision involved in my view of Socialist history Bullet ........

Although I'm not surprised to find "You" once again defending the indefensible ........

Do yourself a huge favour for once in your life......read that article over and over and learn something informative for a change. Your post is utter codswallop.


I did history years ago .......

Revisionism wasn't taught in schools...it wasn't on the curriculum. You won't read that article because you're in fear of it explaining what you prefer to remain in ignorance of.


re·vi·sion·ism
/r?'viZH??niz?m/Submit
nounDEROGATORY
a policy of revision or modification, especially of Nazism and Hitler (rather than revolutionary) or pluralist principles.

Kinda says it all .......Does it not.......Comrade .......

Wow.....finally getting somewhere at last.

Revisionism is exactly that and to help you along i've edited in the words relevant to the subject you've been trying to skew totally out of kilter. It's rejecting traditionally held beliefs about a particular historical event or events....such as Nazism and Hitler. Holocaust deniers are revisionists for this same reason.

I feel you're almost ready to digest that linked article now - then you will finally see where you've been going wrong all along.
userpelmetman
Posted: 10 November 2018 9:19 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


Walks with the gods

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Bulletguy - 2018-11-10 9:07 PM


Wow.....finally getting somewhere at last.

Revisionism is exactly that and to help you along i've edited in the words relevant to the subject you've been trying to skew totally out of kilter. It's rejecting traditionally held beliefs about a particular historical event or events....such as Nazism and Hitler. Holocaust deniers are revisionists for this same reason.

I feel you're almost ready to digest that linked article now - then you will finally see where you've been going wrong all along.


You mean its about Socialists trying to rewrite your unsavory history ........

I guess antisemitism reemerging under Corbyn is prolly bit awkward? ..........

Just a p*ssin on your parade ........yet again.......Comrade .......



Edited by pelmetman 2018-11-10 9:23 PM
userBulletguy
Posted: 10 November 2018 11:49 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


The special one

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pelmetman - 2018-11-10 9:19 PM

Bulletguy - 2018-11-10 9:07 PM


Wow.....finally getting somewhere at last.

Revisionism is exactly that and to help you along i've edited in the words relevant to the subject you've been trying to skew totally out of kilter. It's rejecting traditionally held beliefs about a particular historical event or events....such as Nazism and Hitler. Holocaust deniers are revisionists for this same reason.

I feel you're almost ready to digest that linked article now - then you will finally see where you've been going wrong all along.


You mean its about Socialists trying to rewrite your unsavory history ........

I guess antisemitism reemerging under Corbyn is prolly bit awkward? .........

Just a p*ssin on your parade ........yet again.......Comrade .......

The only 'parade' you've been piss*n on all day is your own through sheer obtuse stubbornness.

FGS read and learn.

https://www.abc.net.au/religion/nazism-socialism-and-the-falsification-of-history/10214302

Now read it again......
https://www.abc.net.au/religion/nazism-socialism-and-the-falsification-of-history/10214302

and again.....
https://www.abc.net.au/religion/nazism-socialism-and-the-falsification-of-history/10214302

Until you have gleaned and learned facts you can't debate this matter at all. You've been posting utter claptrap because you are either 1) purposely being obtuse, or 2) unable to grasp what revisionists do. It seems you fall in both categories as i think you do really know but it just pains you to accept it.

As i previously mentioned, Holocaust deniers are revisionists and attempting to skew Nazism and Hitler as socialism is exactly the same....which suggests to me as long as you persist with this ridiculous revisionist myth of 'Hitler was a socialist', you are a Holocaust denier as both are perpetuated by batsh1t crazy revisionists such as Irving et al who still rub shoulders with far right extremists.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/david-irving-holocaust-denial-neo-nazi-alt-right-london-forum-meeting-auschwitz-hitler-revisionist-a7719291.html

https://guides.lib.jjay.cuny.edu/c.php?g=288386&p=1922632
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 11 November 2018 11:07 AM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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pelmetman - 2018-11-10 7:00 PM.....................….Social equal? ........

kinda damned yourself there Brian ........

You're right. Sincere apologies M'Lud!
userpelmetman
Posted: 13 November 2018 9:07 AM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


Walks with the gods

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Bulletguy - 2018-11-10 11:49 PM

pelmetman - 2018-11-10 9:19 PM

Bulletguy - 2018-11-10 9:07 PM


Wow.....finally getting somewhere at last.

Revisionism is exactly that and to help you along i've edited in the words relevant to the subject you've been trying to skew totally out of kilter. It's rejecting traditionally held beliefs about a particular historical event or events....such as Nazism and Hitler. Holocaust deniers are revisionists for this same reason.

I feel you're almost ready to digest that linked article now - then you will finally see where you've been going wrong all along.


You mean its about Socialists trying to rewrite your unsavory history ........

I guess antisemitism reemerging under Corbyn is prolly bit awkward? .........

Just a p*ssin on your parade ........yet again.......Comrade .......

The only 'parade' you've been piss*n on all day is your own through sheer obtuse stubbornness.

FGS read and learn.

https://www.abc.net.au/religion/nazism-socialism-and-the-falsification-of-history/10214302

Now read it again......
https://www.abc.net.au/religion/nazism-socialism-and-the-falsification-of-history/10214302

and again.....
https://www.abc.net.au/religion/nazism-socialism-and-the-falsification-of-history/10214302

Until you have gleaned and learned facts you can't debate this matter at all. You've been posting utter claptrap because you are either 1) purposely being obtuse, or 2) unable to grasp what revisionists do. It seems you fall in both categories as i think you do really know but it just pains you to accept it.

As i previously mentioned, Holocaust deniers are revisionists and attempting to skew Nazism and Hitler as socialism is exactly the same....which suggests to me as long as you persist with this ridiculous revisionist myth of 'Hitler was a socialist', you are a Holocaust denier as both are perpetuated by batsh1t crazy revisionists such as Irving et al who still rub shoulders with far right extremists.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/david-irving-holocaust-denial-neo-nazi-alt-right-london-forum-meeting-auschwitz-hitler-revisionist-a7719291.html

https://guides.lib.jjay.cuny.edu/c.php?g=288386&p=1922632


Getting leftwing academics to rewrite your Socialist history doesn't make it true .........

https://twitter.com/kilderbenhauser?lang=en

https://twitter.com/dirkmoses?lang=en

userBrian Kirby
Posted: 13 November 2018 10:38 AM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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So, back to the beginning. How on earth does a tragic building fire become a party-political pissing contest? Does this juvenile points scoring not detract from the true issues underlying the use of flammable cladding, in contravention of the regulations in force, in its refurbishment?
userpelmetman
Posted: 13 November 2018 11:00 AM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


Walks with the gods

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Brian Kirby - 2018-11-13 10:38 AM

So, back to the beginning. How on earth does a tragic building fire become a party-political pissing contest? Does this juvenile points scoring not detract from the true issues underlying the use of flammable cladding, in contravention of the regulations in force, in its refurbishment?


Dunno Brian........best wait for the results of the inquiry eh? ..........

BTW did you know that p*ss is an excellent fire retardant? .........

userBrian Kirby
Posted: 13 November 2018 6:54 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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pelmetman - 2018-11-13 11:00 AM
1 Dunno Brian........best wait for the results of the inquiry eh? ..........

2 BTW did you know that p*ss is an excellent fire retardant? .........

1 Agreed,

2 So long as it isn't an electrical fire!
userBulletguy
Posted: 13 November 2018 8:26 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


The special one

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Brian Kirby - 2018-11-13 10:38 AM

So, back to the beginning. How on earth does a tragic building fire become a party-political pissing contest? Does this juvenile points scoring not detract from the true issues underlying the use of flammable cladding, in contravention of the regulations in force, in its refurbishment?

Having viewed that documentary you will have noticed some Labour politicians appeared on it and not for 'point scoring' either, in fact quite the opposite, yet not one Conservative politician or councillor. I wonder why not?
userantony1969
Posted: 13 November 2018 8:43 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


The special one

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Some folk can't take a hint
userBulletguy
Posted: 13 November 2018 10:05 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


The special one

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The public inquiry heard today how police told a resident to remain in a flat more than 15 minutes after the London Fire Brigade’s “stay put” advice was changed.

https://www.channel4.com/news/grenfell-resident-told-to-stay-put-even-after-advice-changed-to-evacuate
userantony1969
Posted: 14 November 2018 6:40 AM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


The special one

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Bulletguy - 2018-11-13 10:05 PM


The public inquiry heard today how police told a resident to remain in a flat more than 15 minutes after the London Fire Brigade’s “stay put” advice was changed.

https://www.channel4.com/news/grenfell-resident-told-to-stay-put-even-after-advice-changed-to-evacuate


Tories to blame ???
userpelmetman
Posted: 14 November 2018 7:57 AM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


Walks with the gods

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antony1969 - 2018-11-14 6:40 AM

Bulletguy - 2018-11-13 10:05 PM


The public inquiry heard today how police told a resident to remain in a flat more than 15 minutes after the London Fire Brigade’s “stay put” advice was changed.

https://www.channel4.com/news/grenfell-resident-told-to-stay-put-even-after-advice-changed-to-evacuate


Tories to blame ???


He'll try..........Socialists have a unsavory habit of spinning history ............

userBulletguy
Posted: 15 November 2018 10:24 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


The special one

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Did you see this on the news last night Brian?

Robert Black, former CEO of KCTMO appeared before the inquest but listen to what an angry LFB commissioner said to a KCTMO employee.

https://www.channel4.com/news/grenfell-housing-boss-says-firm-did-not-have-resources-to-deal-with-the-fire
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 16 November 2018 4:20 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Yes, I did. It will take more digging to establish what the true nature of KCTMO really was. If they were the de facto landlord, they were disastrously ill informed of their responsibilities in that role. They seem vary amateur, so may have lacked the sophistication to do any more than collect the rents and decide how to manage day to day maintenance (not that they seem to have been that good at even that).

I simply don't understand the relationship between them and RBKC, or what their real role was. Clearly RBKC owned the building, so should have satisfied themselves that KCTMO were adequate as individuals, and were adequately resourced, to undertake whatever duties they were charged with.

I don't see how RBKC can evade ultimate responsibility. Even if they put a bunch of dumb clucks in charge of the building, it was their choice, and they were RBKC's dumb clucks! We'll have to wait and see, but I think they're going to find themselves being used for wiping floors. Moore-Bick seems to me to be drawing a long detailed noose around someone's neck. I just hope it is the right neck when it gets tightened!
userBulletguy
Posted: 16 November 2018 5:17 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


The special one

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Brian Kirby - 2018-11-16 4:20 PM

Yes, I did. It will take more digging to establish what the true nature of KCTMO really was. If they were the de facto landlord, they were disastrously ill informed of their responsibilities in that role. They seem vary amateur, so may have lacked the sophistication to do any more than collect the rents and decide how to manage day to day maintenance (not that they seem to have been that good at even that).

I simply don't understand the relationship between them and RBKC, or what their real role was. Clearly RBKC owned the building, so should have satisfied themselves that KCTMO were adequate as individuals, and were adequately resourced, to undertake whatever duties they were charged with.

I don't see how RBKC can evade ultimate responsibility. Even if they put a bunch of dumb clucks in charge of the building, it was their choice, and they were RBKC's dumb clucks! We'll have to wait and see, but I think they're going to find themselves being used for wiping floors. Moore-Bick seems to me to be drawing a long detailed noose around someone's neck. I just hope it is the right neck when it gets tightened!

I don't see how either can and worth remembering after the fire, KCTMO handed back responsibility to RBKC saying it could "no longer guarantee to meet the standards expected by residents."

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/dec/26/grenfell-tower-management-company-hands-responsibility-back-to-council

I'm expecting plural from Moore-Bick....there's more than one neck on the line imo, but i agree it must be the right one with appropriate charges/sentencing. What annoys me is the time scale involved and though it's not the same sort of incident, look how long it took to drag the truth out over the Hillsborough scandal which was hindered by all manners of corruption. 29 years and Duckenfield has only just been brought to trial on manslaughter charges where he's plead not guilty. 29 bloody years.
userTracker
Posted: 16 November 2018 5:26 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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I find the political posturing and finger pointing to be rather distasteful under the circumstances.

We are where we are and nobody can turn the clock back so rather than seek out scapegoats perhaps we should look at the reasons and thinking that led to this fire and take steps to ensure that building regulations are written in such a tightened way that it does not happen again.

It may upset the politically motivated but I suspect that no one person is to blame, rather a succession and accumulation of errors and misjudgements over many years by many individuals and committees.

Perhaps if immunity from persecution or prosecution were granted to all individuals we might, just might, get near the truth but with the constant threat of becoming a scapegoat who in their right mind will tell the truth about what went on in the years before the fire.
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 16 November 2018 6:26 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Tracker - 2018-11-16 5:26 PM

I find the political posturing and finger pointing to be rather distasteful under the circumstances.

We are where we are and nobody can turn the clock back so rather than seek out scapegoats perhaps we should look at the reasons and thinking that led to this fire and take steps to ensure that building regulations are written in such a tightened way that it does not happen again.

It may upset the politically motivated but I suspect that no one person is to blame, rather a succession and accumulation of errors and misjudgements over many years by many individuals and committees.

Perhaps if immunity from persecution or prosecution were granted to all individuals we might, just might, get near the truth but with the constant threat of becoming a scapegoat who in their right mind will tell the truth about what went on in the years before the fire.

There will be an audit trail, Rich, that will show who approved what, and whether what was approved was a) compliant and/or b) altered subsequently, and if so by whom, with whose knowledge. The cladding that was installed was, by all accounts, non-compliant, and was the sole reason the fire spread as it did. It is essential to understand exactly how that can have happened. It may well be as you say, that a succession of people make grave errors, but one then has to ask two things. First, how did those people come to be in the positions they held? Second, why did none of them (assuming more than one) fail to query what was being done.

RBKC building control officers (who should be technically competent to judge building materials, who have the power to call for proof of regulatory compliance, and who can, if they judge necessary, order the work to cease pending proof), visited the site on numerous occasions during the installation of the cladding, yet raised no query on what they saw. Why not?

It is a highly relevant question since those powers are vested in the individual. Were they incompetent, were they hoodwinked, didn't they bother looking, or did they raise queries but were satisfied by assurances that what they had seen was, actually, compliant? And so on.

All those decisions are made by individuals, and they carry individual responsibility for those decisions. That is the final safeguard, intended to prevent people signing off on inadequate work or materials for personal gain. Pursuit of the individual/s is essential to understand whether this was stupidity, inadequacy, incompetence, or corruption. It may seem harsh, but the regulations are there to ensure that buildings are safe to use. To understand why this building was not, on such a dramatic scale, it is essential to follow that audit trail person by person until what actually happened is laid bare.

Only then, IMO, can it be decided whether punishment is justifiable.
userpelmetman
Posted: 16 November 2018 6:34 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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CLICHE WARNING.........

At the end of the day ........

The bloke at the bottom who isn't bright enough to slope shoulders will take the wrap.......

Or they'll be dead or retired on a fat government pension .........

At least the lawyer'ing trade have had a feeding frenzy at tax payers expense ..........

Progress eh? .........



Edited by pelmetman 2018-11-16 6:37 PM
userTracker
Posted: 16 November 2018 7:11 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Still determined to point the finger eh Brian?
I am rather surprised at your stance as I thought you would be more interested in getting at the truth as a preventative process rather than as a witch hunt seeking scapegoats for a system that clearly failed.
userantony1969
Posted: 16 November 2018 8:36 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Tracker - 2018-11-16 5:26 PM

I find the political posturing and finger pointing to be rather distasteful under the circumstances.

We are where we are and nobody can turn the clock back so rather than seek out scapegoats perhaps we should look at the reasons and thinking that led to this fire and take steps to ensure that building regulations are written in such a tightened way that it does not happen again.

It may upset the politically motivated but I suspect that no one person is to blame, rather a succession and accumulation of errors and misjudgements over many years by many individuals and committees.

Perhaps if immunity from persecution or prosecution were granted to all individuals we might, just might, get near the truth but with the constant threat of becoming a scapegoat who in their right mind will tell the truth about what went on in the years before the fire.


Im afraid Richard for the usual suspect anything less than a 100% blame on the Tories ending just wont do ... Cant remember was it Grenfell or Windrush where he wanted Theresa May tried for "crimes against humanity" ... Try not to laugh
userBulletguy
Posted: 16 November 2018 9:01 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Tracker - 2018-11-16 7:11 PM

Still determined to point the finger eh Brian?
I am rather surprised at your stance as I thought you would be more interested in getting at the truth as a preventative process rather than as a witch hunt seeking scapegoats for a system that clearly failed.

I'd imagine 'getting at the truth' is precisely what the inquiry has been engaging in. As for 'preventable', it's long been known it was.

We knew about the warnings soon after the fire, but it’s only now that Inside Housing magazine has been able to prove it, with minutes of a meeting obtained under the Freedom of Information Act. According to these, the government was warned: “There have been major fires in buildings in various parts of the world where ACM materials have been used for the cladding, with the ACM responsible for the external fire spread.”

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/aug/04/grenfell-tower-prentable-tragedy-proof-warning-combustible-cladding

Residents had alerted KCTMO and RBKC many times but simply were not being listened to or taken seriously. They were ignored.....why? Like 55 year old Edward Daffarn who had lived at Grenfell for 16 years and began writing a blog.

Last November, on a grey Sunday with the rain drizzling constantly outside his window, a man sat at his computer on the 16th floor of his West London tower block and began to write a blog.

"It is our conviction that a serious fire in a tower block... is the most likely reason that those who wield power at the KCTMO [Kensington and Chelsea Tenant Management Organisation] will be found out and brought to justice!"

Six months later, on 14 June, London woke up to the news that a fire had blazed through Grenfell Tower on the Lancaster West estate in North Kensington, killing dozens of residents. By the following night the blog had received more than two million hits.


Daffarn and O'Connor shared a theory that Kensington and Chelsea - a London borough more widely known for its museums, designer shops and flower shows - actually wanted its council estates to go into decline, so that the residents would leave and expensive flats could be built in this sought-after location. For this they were described as fantasists.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-42072477

An architect and fire expert who presented a damning report to the Home Office about the safety of high rise apartments, has described the Grenfell Tower fire as “entirely predictable”.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/grenfell-tower-fire-entirely-predictable-could-have-been-prevented-expert-sam-webb-lakanhal-house-a7793331.html

I don't see any 'witch hunting for scapegoats' going on anywhere as that would not be conducive or helpful to the residents and/or their families. But there does have to be accountability for what was certainly preventable.

My ex-employer was H&S obsessed almost to the point of fanaticism. Not without good reason naturally as foremen and block managers were keen to remind us any serious accident could easily see them facing custodial sentences. Our Director often banged on about there being "no such thing as an accident....all are preventable and caused by ignorance or carelessness". Sounds harsh but he was right. I had an accident on the way to work one evening, fortunately not too serious and the car was still driveable even though it ended up being written off, but when i had time to think back at how it had happened, the answer was simple.....i'd left home late and was rushing to work. My fault and preventable.

As Brian said, "regulations are there to ensure that buildings are safe to use. To understand why this building was not, on such a dramatic scale, it is essential to follow that audit trail person by person until what actually happened is laid bare."
userpelmetman
Posted: 16 November 2018 9:07 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Bulletguy - 2018-11-16 9:01 PM

I'd imagine 'getting at the truth' is precisely what the inquiry has been engaging in. As for 'preventable', it's long been known it was.



So yours and Brian's Blathering fest has been for what? ........

Just askin .......

userBrian Kirby
Posted: 17 November 2018 6:49 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Tracker - 2018-11-16 7:11 PM

Still determined to point the finger eh Brian?
I am rather surprised at your stance as I thought you would be more interested in getting at the truth as a preventative process rather than as a witch hunt seeking scapegoats for a system that clearly failed.

Definitely not a witch hunt, but identification of those responsible for this event. Perhaps I was not clear.

The regulations lay down standards that must be met.

Designers and specifiers are obliged to work to those standards, and their designs and specifications have to be approved by a competent authority before the work may, legally, commence.

In the case of Grenfell, the cladding did not comply with the relevant regulation, and yet it was installed. The question as to how that could have happened comes down to individuals, because it is individuals who are entrusted with the responsibility for complying with, and ultimately approving, the materials used.

The "system" is merely a framework, within which individuals work.

This failure is so serious, and so widespread in terms of similar cladding having been applied to numerous buildings across the country, that merely blaming system error will not identify the source of the failure.

If the wrong materials were used (as it is clear they were) someone must have a) approved their use, or b) fraudulently switched in alternative, non compliant, materials. In the case of b), there must be very widespread fraud being perpetrated country wide on numerous projects, in the supply of cladding materials. Possible, but somewhat fantastic, IMO.

Alternatively, in the case of Grenfell, someone actually "signed off", on the use of those materials. But then, is it really feasible that all those other projects were similarly "signed off" by coincidence?

No-one who is unfamiliar with the regulations, or who doesn't understand their meaning and implications, should be in a position to grant approval. Yet, apparently, in this case, either that person was unfamiliar, or was familiar but misapplied the regulations, or exploited some loophole to allow their use.

Until the person comes to be interviewed no-one can tell which, and that process inevitably requires identification of the individual involved. Then, when the responsible person explains how he came to the conclusion that the materials were appropriate, I think we shall begin to learn a lot more about how all those other buildings cane to be clad in similar fashion.

Only when those links are revealed shall we know whether this was the result of inadequate training, of some change in the designation of compliant materials that caused confusion, of a manufacturer (or his agent) mis-representing his product to gain sales, or what. But, somewhere in the process of approval there has been a catastrophic failure, and that failure points to individuals who carry the ultimate responsibility for the fire.

Only when we know the who and the how, and ask those directly involved the relevant questions, can we discover whether this was genuine mistake, collective incompetence, misrepresentation, or what. Only then, IMO, can we decide whether anyone can truly be held accountable for Grenfell, and to what degree. To me that is not a witch hunt, it is a search for truth and understanding, only following which can the deficiency be properly remedied.
userantony1969
Posted: 28 November 2018 5:40 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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So many Cockneys willing to make money out of death ... https://news.sky.com/story/the-fraudsters-who-took-advantage-of-grenfell-11559444 ... Those ruddy Cockneys ... Weird names though
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 28 November 2018 6:25 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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antony1969 - 2018-11-28 5:40 PM

So many Cockneys willing to make money out of death ... https://news.sky.com/story/the-fraudsters-who-took-advantage-of-grenfell-11559444 ... Those ruddy Cockneys ... Weird names though

However appalling those people may be Antony - and they are totally appalling - Cockneys they are not. That is a gross slur on the Cockneys who are, in general, honest, hard working, people, who merely happen to inhabit a particular part of London. Grenfell is in west London, the Cockneys inhabit the east, north of the Thames, traditionally within the sound of Bow Bells (the bells of the church of St Mary le Bow. So, should we take your knowledge of Cockneys to be equivalent to your knowledge of immigrants?
userantony1969
Posted: 28 November 2018 6:34 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


The special one

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Brian Kirby - 2018-11-28 6:25 PM

antony1969 - 2018-11-28 5:40 PM

So many Cockneys willing to make money out of death ... https://news.sky.com/story/the-fraudsters-who-took-advantage-of-grenfell-11559444 ... Those ruddy Cockneys ... Weird names though

However appalling those people may be Antony - and they are totally appalling - Cockneys they are not. That is a gross slur on the Cockneys who are, in general, honest, hard working, people, who merely happen to inhabit a particular part of London. Grenfell is in west London, the Cockneys inhabit the east, north of the Thames, traditionally within the sound of Bow Bells (the bells of the church of St Mary le Bow. So, should we take your knowledge of Cockneys to be equivalent to your knowledge of immigrants?


Not at all Brian ... I was of course taking the wizz to see which of our resident Grenfelllites would bite ... Rather surprised its you
userBulletguy
Posted: 28 November 2018 8:52 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


The special one

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Brian Kirby - 2018-11-28 6:25 PM

antony1969 - 2018-11-28 5:40 PM

So many Cockneys willing to make money out of death ... https://news.sky.com/story/the-fraudsters-who-took-advantage-of-grenfell-11559444 ... Those ruddy Cockneys ... Weird names though

However appalling those people may be Antony - and they are totally appalling - Cockneys they are not. That is a gross slur on the Cockneys who are, in general, honest, hard working, people, who merely happen to inhabit a particular part of London. Grenfell is in west London, the Cockneys inhabit the east, north of the Thames, traditionally within the sound of Bow Bells (the bells of the church of St Mary le Bow. So, should we take your knowledge of Cockneys to be equivalent to your knowledge of immigrants?

It's on a par with his 'knowledge' of the 'indigenous' Yorkshire folks!
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