Grenfell Tower

[antony1969]

Bulletguy - 2017-06-18 1:11 PM

 

antony1969 - 2017-06-18 12:30 PM

 

Brian Kirby - 2017-06-18 11:45 AM

 

antony1969 - 2017-06-18 9:55 AM

 

£500 per week per unit in Grenfell ... Wonder who paid most of those rents at £25.000 a year ... Suppose its the same in many of Londons tower blocks ... The tax payer pays a lot out for little or no return

Try as I might, Antony, I can't see what relevance that has to the fire. :-S

 

The same relevance that's been thrown about by the wets regarding the rich and poor of London ... if living rent free to the tune of 25 grand a year in a 10 million quid renovation block is poor then I don't how to describe my poor departed old grandparents lot in life

£10 million 'renovation' is the sort of money people like Rinat Akhmetov or John Caudwell would spend on new light fittings for their apartment at One Hyde Park.

 

Whether "living rent free to the tune of 25 grand a year" or not (do you have statistics to support that claim?) does not excuse lax and unsafe housing. This was a preventable accident just waiting to happen and concerns had been raised before......but they were deemed "trouble makers" and ignored.

 

Well, they are dead now.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/grenfell-tower-fire-london-dead-legal-action-campaign-fire-safety-mariem-elgwahry-nadia-choucair-a7795586.html

 

Did I say it did excuse unsafe housing ??? ... Time will tell if it was unsafe won't it so why don't you let the law do its job and hopefully provide answers rather than second guessing ... £10 million on new light fittings ( do you have statistics to support that claim ? ) ... Here we go ... https://twitter.com/Third_Position/status/875874732222107648 ... It was cos they is black init ... Or like a Muslim woman said on the Beeb it was whites retaliating against Muslim terror acts who set it on fire ... Or like another black fella said it was the rich folks fault who live across the road cos they made the council put on cheap cladding cos they didn't want to look at a horrible building ... Oh dear

[Bop]

There was a very interesting article on Radio-4 yesterday in which a few of the phone-in guests highlighted the various tendering processes for council-related projects (UK-wide) and how they were fundamentally flawed.

 

Some of the points highlighted were:

 

1. Council groups did not have the necessary skilled staff to define the correct specification of tenders during the initial scoping process to potential contractors.

 

2. Council projects were largely self-supervised by the contractor due to a lack of knowledge and lack of suitably qualified supervisors in the various council departments.

 

3. The Scope Of Work for a contract would often be redefined by the council after the chosen tender had been evaluated and subsequently awarded to said contractor.

 

4. The contractor would be asked to make savings during the execution phase of the project.

 

5. The contractor would need to employ a dynamic strategy to help it stay within budget.

 

6. It was mentioned that the financial margins (by contractors) for some council projects were only 2% gross of the total contract value which gave no room for error but did give ample opportunity for bits to be left out; i.e. Like the wall-ties problem, or lack of them, in the recent Scottish Governments' School Projects.

 

The are many other points that could be added in terms of council and contractor deficiencies so I'm convinced there are hundreds of problems out there still waiting to happen.

[Barryd999]

As was mentioned earlier, There should be a full inquest not just a government led inquiry. There are several petitions calling for this. Here is one. https://www.change.org/p/this-government-must-carry-out-a-fully-transparent-investigation-into-the-grenfell-tragedy-allowing-for-meaningful-participation-of-the-residents-their-families-and-the-surrounding-community-their-voices-must-be-heard

 

As for the place being unsafe or not. As well as the two girls above who were silenced. Have a read of this by the Grenfell Action Group from November. Chilling reading. https://grenfellactiongroup.wordpress.com/2016/11/20/kctmo-playing-with-fire/

 

And theres more. https://grenfellactiongroup.wordpress.com/

 

This could topple the Government. Not that they will need much help in that department anyway shortly.

[Bulletguy]

antony1969 - 2017-06-18 1:22 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2017-06-18 1:11 PM

 

antony1969 - 2017-06-18 12:30 PM

 

Brian Kirby - 2017-06-18 11:45 AM

 

antony1969 - 2017-06-18 9:55 AM

 

£500 per week per unit in Grenfell ... Wonder who paid most of those rents at £25.000 a year ... Suppose its the same in many of Londons tower blocks ... The tax payer pays a lot out for little or no return

Try as I might, Antony, I can't see what relevance that has to the fire. :-S

 

The same relevance that's been thrown about by the wets regarding the rich and poor of London ... if living rent free to the tune of 25 grand a year in a 10 million quid renovation block is poor then I don't how to describe my poor departed old grandparents lot in life

£10 million 'renovation' is the sort of money people like Rinat Akhmetov or John Caudwell would spend on new light fittings for their apartment at One Hyde Park.

 

Whether "living rent free to the tune of 25 grand a year" or not (do you have statistics to support that claim?) does not excuse lax and unsafe housing. This was a preventable accident just waiting to happen and concerns had been raised before......but they were deemed "trouble makers" and ignored.

 

Well, they are dead now.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/grenfell-tower-fire-london-dead-legal-action-campaign-fire-safety-mariem-elgwahry-nadia-choucair-a7795586.html

 

Did I say it did excuse unsafe housing ??? ...

Maybe you should phrase your postings better as you appear to believe people should be grateful for "living rent free to the tune of 25 grand a year in a 10 million quid renovation block". I've no idea at all where you draw this sort of misinformation from.....no doubt some extremist alt-right blog.

 

 

Here we go ... https://twitter.com/Third_Position/status/875874732222107648 ... Oh dear

Yes "oh dear" indeed. You couldn't have picked a worse example to post than that though you seem to spend your life dwelling among those sort of sites. Third Positionists go back to the Nazi days and Night of the Long Knives.........neofascists in today's terms. Metzger, US white supremacist and former KKK leader is an advocate of Third Positionism which he promotes in his rag paper WAR (White Aryan Resistance).

[Bulletguy]

Barryd999 - 2017-06-18 3:08 PM

 

As was mentioned earlier, There should be a full inquest not just a government led inquiry. There are several petitions calling for this. Here is one. https://www.change.org/p/this-government-must-carry-out-a-fully-transparent-investigation-into-the-grenfell-tragedy-allowing-for-meaningful-participation-of-the-residents-their-families-and-the-surrounding-community-their-voices-must-be-heard

 

As for the place being unsafe or not. As well as the two girls above who were silenced. Have a read of this by the Grenfell Action Group from November. Chilling reading. https://grenfellactiongroup.wordpress.com/2016/11/20/kctmo-playing-with-fire/

 

And theres more. https://grenfellactiongroup.wordpress.com/

 

This could topple the Government. Not that they will need much help in that department anyway shortly.

Chilling reading indeed and mention of reported electrical power surges, dodgy wiring and uncollected rubbish left piled up reminded me of the "Towering Inferno" movie scenes where Paul Newman (architect) first discovers his specified wiring had been replaced for a cheaper but less safe alternative. Later he and McQueen (fire chief) discover building rubble and set concrete blocking a fire door. All dramatic stuff of course, but very real.

 

Where i used to work we once suffered a serious explosion in one of the powder rooms (small secured building where one single canister was mounted to feed powder to machines for 'live' round loading). The roof was totally blown off and the large heavy double bolted blast door ripped off and discovered almost 150mtr away. Fortunately nobody was working in the area that night though normally it would have been running. Fatalities would have been a certainty. I was working in the block next door and felt an earth tremor, then heard this weird roaring sound. It was an experience i will never forget.

 

Certainly KCTMO and the Tory led Borough Council have some extremely serious issues to account for and it will prove interesting to see how they respond. Apparently some of the flats were privately owned.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/grenfell-tower-fire-latest-jeremy-corbyn-attacks-kensington-council-lack-of-resources-a7795656.html

 

[Brian Kirby]

Bulletguy - 2017-06-18 12:07 PM

 

John52 - 2017-06-17 10:46 PM

 

Brian Kirby - 2017-06-17 10:36 PM

 

John52 - 2017-06-17 9:25 PM................................

1 Thatcher shifted the onus on fire prevention from the fire authority to the landlord.

2 Spending money on cheap combustible pretty cladding instead of fire sprinklers is not the decision of a fireman is it?

3 Thats the decision of a politician :-(

1 Not on any project I've even been involved in. If I said where's your evidence for that, what would you say?

2 According to statements made by the senior fire officer involved, as I understand him, yes, it still is. Sprinklers are not a panacea for safety, and have always been second preference to compartmentation. I wouldn't want to bet on which would have been the cheapest, the sprinklers or the cladding, but I'd be a mite surprised if either would prove much different in cost to the other.

3 Well who actually made that decision? Do you know?

 

I read it recently about Thatcher moving fire inspection responsibilities from the Fire Brigade I think in the FT and will try and find it again

The link I posted earlier compares the cost of sprinklers and cladding http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-40290158

Apart from the known extreme divisions in the London wealth gap, this bit in that linked article stood out to me.

 

The International Fire Sprinkler Association (IFSA) says that automatic fire sprinkler systems are the single most effective fire protection measure available, and are able to make up for a wide range of other fire protection deficiencies.

 

There has never been a multiple loss of life from a fire developing in a building protected by a properly designed, installed and maintained fire sprinkler system. While fire sprinkler systems have been required in new high-rise residential buildings in England since 2007, it is not compulsory to retrofit them into existing buildings. So Grenfell Tower had none.

 

From it's build history Grenfell Tower seems to be yet another 'modern day' slum which should have been condemned years ago, but we continue to hold on to these shoddy relics The same can be said for new build estates....tiny little boxes with folk living cheek by jowl. It's just a modern version of 1930's terraced property though possibly poorer built.

 

UK has masses open land but the only way to realise just how much is taking a flight on one of those rare cloudless blue sky days. Estates are clumped together like wagon trains from the wild west, then absolutely nothing but open land for mile after mile.....until the next estate appears.

So, where, in a country that is not even self-sufficient in milk, would you put the cows? :-D

[Brian Kirby]

antony1969 - 2017-06-18 12:30 PM

 

Brian Kirby - 2017-06-18 11:45 AM

 

antony1969 - 2017-06-18 9:55 AM

 

£500 per week per unit in Grenfell ... Wonder who paid most of those rents at £25.000 a year ... Suppose its the same in many of Londons tower blocks ... The tax payer pays a lot out for little or no return

Try as I might, Antony, I can't see what relevance that has to the fire. :-S

 

The same relevance that's been thrown about by the wets regarding the rich and poor of London ... if living rent free to the tune of 25 grand a year in a 10 million quid renovation block is poor then I don't how to describe my poor departed old grandparents lot in life

But the fire?

[Brian Kirby]

Bop - 2017-06-18 1:58 PM

 

There was a very interesting article on Radio-4 yesterday in which a few of the phone-in guests highlighted the various tendering processes for council-related projects (UK-wide) and how they were fundamentally flawed.

 

Some of the points highlighted were:

 

1. Council groups did not have the necessary skilled staff to define the correct specification of tenders during the initial scoping process to potential contractors.

 

2. Council projects were largely self-supervised by the contractor due to a lack of knowledge and lack of suitably qualified supervisors in the various council departments.

 

3. The Scope Of Work for a contract would often be redefined by the council after the chosen tender had been evaluated and subsequently awarded to said contractor.

 

4. The contractor would be asked to make savings during the execution phase of the project.

 

5. The contractor would need to employ a dynamic strategy to help it stay within budget.

 

6. It was mentioned that the financial margins (by contractors) for some council projects were only 2% gross of the total contract value which gave no room for error but did give ample opportunity for bits to be left out; i.e. Like the wall-ties problem, or lack of them, in the recent Scottish Governments' School Projects.

 

The are many other points that could be added in terms of council and contractor deficiencies so I'm convinced there are hundreds of problems out there still waiting to happen.

Interesting, but there are plenty of professionally trained and competent consultancies available around the country to fill those skill deficiencies, so why don't the councils employ them when their own resources are inadequate? After all, almost all councils used to have their own in-house construction professionals, but almost all such departments have now been closed down. Why is that?

[antony1969]

Bulletguy - 2017-06-18 3:16 PM

 

antony1969 - 2017-06-18 1:22 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2017-06-18 1:11 PM

 

antony1969 - 2017-06-18 12:30 PM

 

Brian Kirby - 2017-06-18 11:45 AM

 

antony1969 - 2017-06-18 9:55 AM

 

£500 per week per unit in Grenfell ... Wonder who paid most of those rents at £25.000 a year ... Suppose its the same in many of Londons tower blocks ... The tax payer pays a lot out for little or no return

Try as I might, Antony, I can't see what relevance that has to the fire. :-S

 

The same relevance that's been thrown about by the wets regarding the rich and poor of London ... if living rent free to the tune of 25 grand a year in a 10 million quid renovation block is poor then I don't how to describe my poor departed old grandparents lot in life

£10 million 'renovation' is the sort of money people like Rinat Akhmetov or John Caudwell would spend on new light fittings for their apartment at One Hyde Park.

 

Whether "living rent free to the tune of 25 grand a year" or not (do you have statistics to support that claim?) does not excuse lax and unsafe housing. This was a preventable accident just waiting to happen and concerns had been raised before......but they were deemed "trouble makers" and ignored.

 

Well, they are dead now.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/grenfell-tower-fire-london-dead-legal-action-campaign-fire-safety-mariem-elgwahry-nadia-choucair-a7795586.html

 

Did I say it did excuse unsafe housing ??? ...

Maybe you should phrase your postings better as you appear to believe people should be grateful for "living rent free to the tune of 25 grand a year in a 10 million quid renovation block". I've no idea at all where you draw this sort of misinformation from.....no doubt some extremist alt-right blog.

 

 

Here we go ... https://twitter.com/Third_Position/status/875874732222107648 ... Oh dear

Yes "oh dear" indeed. You couldn't have picked a worse example to post than that though you seem to spend your life dwelling among those sort of sites. Third Positionists go back to the Nazi days and Night of the Long Knives.........neofascists in today's terms. Metzger, US white supremacist and former KKK leader is an advocate of Third Positionism which he promotes in his rag paper WAR (White Aryan Resistance).

 

People should be damn grateful to live rent free in such a place and even more so considering the countries some of those living in the block originally came from ... How does the site where the video came from effect what was coming out of the black fellas mush ??? ... White fella blacked up trying to cause problems probably eh ???

[antony1969]

Brian Kirby - 2017-06-18 6:09 PM

 

antony1969 - 2017-06-18 12:30 PM

 

Brian Kirby - 2017-06-18 11:45 AM

 

antony1969 - 2017-06-18 9:55 AM

 

£500 per week per unit in Grenfell ... Wonder who paid most of those rents at £25.000 a year ... Suppose its the same in many of Londons tower blocks ... The tax payer pays a lot out for little or no return

Try as I might, Antony, I can't see what relevance that has to the fire. :-S

 

The same relevance that's been thrown about by the wets regarding the rich and poor of London ... if living rent free to the tune of 25 grand a year in a 10 million quid renovation block is poor then I don't how to describe my poor departed old grandparents lot in life

But the fire?

 

Its out Brian though the left may be using it to start another

[John52]

antony1969 - 2017-06-18 6:49 PM

People should be damn grateful to live rent free in such a place?

But they don't see any of the money spent on their rent. That goes to somone else. All they get is a fire trap slave box.

Kensington & Chelsea Council is ultimately responsible for Grenfell Tower, and they have been Tory since 1964 - before it even got on to the drawing board.

So how can we say anything about it without you accusing us of scoring left wing political points?

[John52]

Brian Kirby - 2017-06-18 6:08 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2017-06-18 12:07 PM

 

John52 - 2017-06-17 10:46 PM

 

Brian Kirby - 2017-06-17 10:36 PM

 

John52 - 2017-06-17 9:25 PM................................

1 Thatcher shifted the onus on fire prevention from the fire authority to the landlord.

2 Spending money on cheap combustible pretty cladding instead of fire sprinklers is not the decision of a fireman is it?

3 Thats the decision of a politician :-(

1 Not on any project I've even been involved in. If I said where's your evidence for that, what would you say?

2 According to statements made by the senior fire officer involved, as I understand him, yes, it still is. Sprinklers are not a panacea for safety, and have always been second preference to compartmentation. I wouldn't want to bet on which would have been the cheapest, the sprinklers or the cladding, but I'd be a mite surprised if either would prove much different in cost to the other.

3 Well who actually made that decision? Do you know?

 

I read it recently about Thatcher moving fire inspection responsibilities from the Fire Brigade I think in the FT and will try and find it again

The link I posted earlier compares the cost of sprinklers and cladding http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-40290158

Apart from the known extreme divisions in the London wealth gap, this bit in that linked article stood out to me.

 

The International Fire Sprinkler Association (IFSA) says that automatic fire sprinkler systems are the single most effective fire protection measure available, and are able to make up for a wide range of other fire protection deficiencies.

 

There has never been a multiple loss of life from a fire developing in a building protected by a properly designed, installed and maintained fire sprinkler system. While fire sprinkler systems have been required in new high-rise residential buildings in England since 2007, it is not compulsory to retrofit them into existing buildings. So Grenfell Tower had none.

 

From it's build history Grenfell Tower seems to be yet another 'modern day' slum which should have been condemned years ago, but we continue to hold on to these shoddy relics The same can be said for new build estates....tiny little boxes with folk living cheek by jowl. It's just a modern version of 1930's terraced property though possibly poorer built.

 

UK has masses open land but the only way to realise just how much is taking a flight on one of those rare cloudless blue sky days. Estates are clumped together like wagon trains from the wild west, then absolutely nothing but open land for mile after mile.....until the next estate appears.

So, where, in a country that is not even self-sufficient in milk, would you put the cows? :-D

 

Wouldn't easing the housing crisis be worth importing a little more of our food?

[John52]

Brian Kirby - 2017-06-18 11:41 AM

 

John52 - 2017-06-18 7:13 AM

 

Brian Kirby - 2017-06-17 10:36 PM

Well who actually made that decision? (to spend the money on flammable pretty cladding instead of fire sprinklers) Do you know?

No - but I can't believe it was a fireman.

It wouldn't have been, but the person who approved it's use should have been a fire officer.

 

Unfortunately not had time to find where I read it yet. But I recall it saying the inspection time of such a block had been cut from 6 hours to half an hour by leaving most of it to the landlord.

We've had 30 years of cutting 'red tape' like safety regulations, amid far-fetched stories in the billionaire press about 'Elf & Safety Gone Mad'

Also said the cladding on Grenfell Tower is banned in Germany

 

[antony1969]

John52 - 2017-06-18 7:14 PM

 

antony1969 - 2017-06-18 6:49 PM

People should be damn grateful to live rent free in such a place?

But they don't see any of the money spent on their rent. That goes to somone else. All they get is a fire trap slave box.

Kensington & Chelsea Council is ultimately responsible for Grenfell Tower, and they have been Tory since 1964 - before it even got on to the drawing board.

So how can we say anything about it without you accusing us of scoring left wing political points?

 

When I had a mortgage I didn't see any of that so what's your point ... they are provided with free , yes free accommodation probably without paying much into the system or ever paid anything in ... The rent is paid to the landlord directly on their behalf as they'd probably spend it on necessary things like phones and cigs otherwise

[Bulletguy]

antony1969 - 2017-06-18 6:49 PM

 

People should be damn grateful to live rent free in such a place and even more so considering the countries some of those living in the block originally came from ...

You keep banging on about "25 grand a year rent free living" but you've provided absolutely no evidence to substantiate this wild assumption. How many of the residents were employed......or are you just going to hazzard a guess at that too?

 

And tell me Antony.....why are you so concerned about where the victims "originally came from" who have died in such a horrific fire? Where and how is a persons country of origin relevant to this tragedy? Maybe some were refugees fleeing war torn countries, maybe some were white British.......does that really matter? Is there some kind of preferential status in Antony World?

 

How does the site where the video came from effect what was coming out of the black fellas mush ??? ... White fella blacked up trying to cause problems probably eh ???

I explained the ideology behind Third Positionism which was where that Twitter post originated from. If you believe neofascism is the way forward.....then sadly you are more extreme right than i ever thought.

[Bulletguy]

John52 - 2017-06-18 7:23 PM

 

Brian Kirby - 2017-06-18 11:41 AM

 

John52 - 2017-06-18 7:13 AM

 

Brian Kirby - 2017-06-17 10:36 PM

Well who actually made that decision? (to spend the money on flammable pretty cladding instead of fire sprinklers) Do you know?

No - but I can't believe it was a fireman.

It wouldn't have been, but the person who approved it's use should have been a fire officer.

 

Unfortunately not had time to find where I read it yet. But I recall it saying the inspection time of such a block had been cut from 6 hours to half an hour by leaving most of it to the landlord.

We've had 30 years of cutting 'red tape' like safety regulations, amid far-fetched stories in the billionaire press about 'Elf & Safety Gone Mad'

Also said the cladding on Grenfell Tower is banned in Germany

And in UK according to Hammond.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/grenfell-tower-flammable-cladding-banned-in-uk-philip-hammond-germany-us-a7795696.html

[Bulletguy]

Brian Kirby - 2017-06-18 6:08 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2017-06-18 12:07 PM

 

John52 - 2017-06-17 10:46 PM

 

Brian Kirby - 2017-06-17 10:36 PM

 

John52 - 2017-06-17 9:25 PM................................

1 Thatcher shifted the onus on fire prevention from the fire authority to the landlord.

2 Spending money on cheap combustible pretty cladding instead of fire sprinklers is not the decision of a fireman is it?

3 Thats the decision of a politician :-(

1 Not on any project I've even been involved in. If I said where's your evidence for that, what would you say?

2 According to statements made by the senior fire officer involved, as I understand him, yes, it still is. Sprinklers are not a panacea for safety, and have always been second preference to compartmentation. I wouldn't want to bet on which would have been the cheapest, the sprinklers or the cladding, but I'd be a mite surprised if either would prove much different in cost to the other.

3 Well who actually made that decision? Do you know?

 

I read it recently about Thatcher moving fire inspection responsibilities from the Fire Brigade I think in the FT and will try and find it again

The link I posted earlier compares the cost of sprinklers and cladding http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-40290158

Apart from the known extreme divisions in the London wealth gap, this bit in that linked article stood out to me.

 

The International Fire Sprinkler Association (IFSA) says that automatic fire sprinkler systems are the single most effective fire protection measure available, and are able to make up for a wide range of other fire protection deficiencies.

 

There has never been a multiple loss of life from a fire developing in a building protected by a properly designed, installed and maintained fire sprinkler system. While fire sprinkler systems have been required in new high-rise residential buildings in England since 2007, it is not compulsory to retrofit them into existing buildings. So Grenfell Tower had none.

 

From it's build history Grenfell Tower seems to be yet another 'modern day' slum which should have been condemned years ago, but we continue to hold on to these shoddy relics The same can be said for new build estates....tiny little boxes with folk living cheek by jowl. It's just a modern version of 1930's terraced property though possibly poorer built.

 

UK has masses open land but the only way to realise just how much is taking a flight on one of those rare cloudless blue sky days. Estates are clumped together like wagon trains from the wild west, then absolutely nothing but open land for mile after mile.....until the next estate appears.

So, where, in a country that is not even self-sufficient in milk, would you put the cows? :-D

Milton Keynes. ;-)

[Bulletguy]

 

Ealing Council have now stepped in

 

A team of executives from other London boroughs, Government staff, NHS workers and British Red Cross volunteers have been drafted in amid fury over the Conservative council handling of the crisis.

 

https://www.buzzfeed.com/aishagani/another-london-council-says-it-is-stepping-in-to-deal-with?utm_term=.sox5lVqM80#.vwXxgW1qQG

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/emergency-taskforce-takes-over-grenfell-tower-relief-criticism-chaotic-kensington-council-a7796266.html

[antony1969]

Bulletguy - 2017-06-18 7:31 PM

 

antony1969 - 2017-06-18 6:49 PM

 

People should be damn grateful to live rent free in such a place and even more so considering the countries some of those living in the block originally came from ...

You keep banging on about "25 grand a year rent free living" but you've provided absolutely no evidence to substantiate this wild assumption. How many of the residents were employed......or are you just going to hazzard a guess at that too?

 

And tell me Antony.....why are you so concerned about where the victims "originally came from" who have died in such a horrific fire? Where and how is a persons country of origin relevant to this tragedy? Maybe some were refugees fleeing war torn countries, maybe some were white British.......does that really matter? Is there some kind of preferential status in Antony World?

 

How does the site where the video came from effect what was coming out of the black fellas mush ??? ... White fella blacked up trying to cause problems probably eh ???

I explained the ideology behind Third Positionism which was where that Twitter post originated from. If you believe neofascism is the way forward.....then sadly you are more extreme right than i ever thought.

 

Really interesting history lesson apart where I posted the link from is irrelevant unless you can prove they have somehow doctored the clip to stir up trouble of course

[Brian Kirby]

John52 - 2017-06-18 7:17 PM...............................

Wouldn't easing the housing crisis be worth importing a little more of our food?

Only, IMO, if you believe we can go on doing that indefinitely. Surely, at some point we have to accept that we cannot simply go on importing what we need for survival? It seems a very short sighted policy to me: a bit like Thatcher's policy of not making things but living off financial services and just using the proceeds to import whatever we wanted. Look where that got us.

[Brian Kirby]

antony1969 - 2017-06-18 6:51 PM

 

Brian Kirby - 2017-06-18 6:09 PM

 

antony1969 - 2017-06-18 12:30 PM

 

Brian Kirby - 2017-06-18 11:45 AM

 

antony1969 - 2017-06-18 9:55 AM

 

£500 per week per unit in Grenfell ... Wonder who paid most of those rents at £25.000 a year ... Suppose its the same in many of Londons tower blocks ... The tax payer pays a lot out for little or no return

Try as I might, Antony, I can't see what relevance that has to the fire. :-S

 

The same relevance that's been thrown about by the wets regarding the rich and poor of London ... if living rent free to the tune of 25 grand a year in a 10 million quid renovation block is poor then I don't how to describe my poor departed old grandparents lot in life

But the fire?

 

Its out Brian though the left may be using it to start another

The blocks were built 40 years ago, Antony, to house people who couldn't afford to buy or rent privately, but were needed to provide labour in all kinds of relatively low paid jobs. The social and ethnic make up of the tenants will inevitably have changed over the years, but does that make social housing a bad thing? Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I think you once said you ran a roofing company. Are all your employees owner-occupiers, or might some live in social housing? Does everyone earn enough to buy or rent privately today, where 40 years ago they didn't?

 

Whatever, saying people should be grateful to be burnt to death because they didn't have enough money to pay their own rent, which is what you seem to be arguing here: "People should be damn grateful to live rent free in such a place and even more so considering the countries some of those living in the block originally came from", seems completely out of proportion, to put it at its mildest. Do you really mean that?

[Brian Kirby]

Bulletguy - 2017-06-18 7:35 PM.........................................And in UK according to Hammond.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/grenfell-tower-flammable-cladding-banned-in-uk-philip-hammond-germany-us-a7795696.html

"Spreadsheet Phil" might be better advised to stick to being Chancellor of the Exchequer, than trying to play Building Control Officer on the side, don't you think? :-D

[Brian Kirby]

Bulletguy - 2017-06-18 7:46 PM

 

Brian Kirby - 2017-06-18 6:08 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2017-06-18 12:07 PM

 

John52 - 2017-06-17 10:46 PM

 

Brian Kirby - 2017-06-17 10:36 PM

 

John52 - 2017-06-17 9:25 PM................................

1 Thatcher shifted the onus on fire prevention from the fire authority to the landlord.

2 Spending money on cheap combustible pretty cladding instead of fire sprinklers is not the decision of a fireman is it?

3 Thats the decision of a politician :-(

1 Not on any project I've even been involved in. If I said where's your evidence for that, what would you say?

2 According to statements made by the senior fire officer involved, as I understand him, yes, it still is. Sprinklers are not a panacea for safety, and have always been second preference to compartmentation. I wouldn't want to bet on which would have been the cheapest, the sprinklers or the cladding, but I'd be a mite surprised if either would prove much different in cost to the other.

3 Well who actually made that decision? Do you know?

 

I read it recently about Thatcher moving fire inspection responsibilities from the Fire Brigade I think in the FT and will try and find it again

The link I posted earlier compares the cost of sprinklers and cladding http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-40290158

Apart from the known extreme divisions in the London wealth gap, this bit in that linked article stood out to me.

 

The International Fire Sprinkler Association (IFSA) says that automatic fire sprinkler systems are the single most effective fire protection measure available, and are able to make up for a wide range of other fire protection deficiencies.

 

There has never been a multiple loss of life from a fire developing in a building protected by a properly designed, installed and maintained fire sprinkler system. While fire sprinkler systems have been required in new high-rise residential buildings in England since 2007, it is not compulsory to retrofit them into existing buildings. So Grenfell Tower had none.

 

From it's build history Grenfell Tower seems to be yet another 'modern day' slum which should have been condemned years ago, but we continue to hold on to these shoddy relics The same can be said for new build estates....tiny little boxes with folk living cheek by jowl. It's just a modern version of 1930's terraced property though possibly poorer built.

 

UK has masses open land but the only way to realise just how much is taking a flight on one of those rare cloudless blue sky days. Estates are clumped together like wagon trains from the wild west, then absolutely nothing but open land for mile after mile.....until the next estate appears.

So, where, in a country that is not even self-sufficient in milk, would you put the cows? :-D

Milton Keynes. ;-)

They're bleedin' concrete, Paul! :-D

[antony1969]

Brian Kirby - 2017-06-18 10:11 PM

 

antony1969 - 2017-06-18 6:51 PM

 

Brian Kirby - 2017-06-18 6:09 PM

 

antony1969 - 2017-06-18 12:30 PM

 

Brian Kirby - 2017-06-18 11:45 AM

 

antony1969 - 2017-06-18 9:55 AM

 

£500 per week per unit in Grenfell ... Wonder who paid most of those rents at £25.000 a year ... Suppose its the same in many of Londons tower blocks ... The tax payer pays a lot out for little or no return

Try as I might, Antony, I can't see what relevance that has to the fire. :-S

 

The same relevance that's been thrown about by the wets regarding the rich and poor of London ... if living rent free to the tune of 25 grand a year in a 10 million quid renovation block is poor then I don't how to describe my poor departed old grandparents lot in life

But the fire?

 

Its out Brian though the left may be using it to start another

The blocks were built 40 years ago, Antony, to house people who couldn't afford to buy or rent privately, but were needed to provide labour in all kinds of relatively low paid jobs. The social and ethnic make up of the tenants will inevitably have changed over the years, but does that make social housing a bad thing? Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I think you once said you ran a roofing company. Are all your employees owner-occupiers, or might some live in social housing? Does everyone earn enough to buy or rent privately today, where 40 years ago they didn't?

 

Whatever, saying people should be grateful to be burnt to death because they didn't have enough money to pay their own rent, which is what you seem to be arguing here: "People should be damn grateful to live rent free in such a place and even more so considering the countries some of those living in the block originally came from", seems completely out of proportion, to put it at its mildest. Do you really mean that?[/quote

 

Did I really say or mean they should be "grateful to be burnt to death" ... No I didn't ... The argument by some has been that they are poor and because they are poor they have been left to rot in some cesspit for years ... My point is that if poor is to live rent free to the tune of 25k a year plus other benefits in a 10 million pound recently renovated building then poor aint all that bad is it and I don't think the word poor is the correct word to describe them

[Violet1956]

antony1969 - 2017-06-19 6:35 AM

 

Brian Kirby - 2017-06-18 10:11 PM

 

antony1969 - 2017-06-18 6:51 PM

 

Brian Kirby - 2017-06-18 6:09 PM

 

antony1969 - 2017-06-18 12:30 PM

 

Brian Kirby - 2017-06-18 11:45 AM

 

antony1969 - 2017-06-18 9:55 AM

 

£500 per week per unit in Grenfell ... Wonder who paid most of those rents at £25.000 a year ... Suppose its the same in many of Londons tower blocks ... The tax payer pays a lot out for little or no return

Try as I might, Antony, I can't see what relevance that has to the fire. :-S

 

The same relevance that's been thrown about by the wets regarding the rich and poor of London ... if living rent free to the tune of 25 grand a year in a 10 million quid renovation block is poor then I don't how to describe my poor departed old grandparents lot in life

But the fire?

 

Its out Brian though the left may be using it to start another

The blocks were built 40 years ago, Antony, to house people who couldn't afford to buy or rent privately, but were needed to provide labour in all kinds of relatively low paid jobs. The social and ethnic make up of the tenants will inevitably have changed over the years, but does that make social housing a bad thing? Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I think you once said you ran a roofing company. Are all your employees owner-occupiers, or might some live in social housing? Does everyone earn enough to buy or rent privately today, where 40 years ago they didn't?

 

Whatever, saying people should be grateful to be burnt to death because they didn't have enough money to pay their own rent, which is what you seem to be arguing here: "People should be damn grateful to live rent free in such a place and even more so considering the countries some of those living in the block originally came from", seems completely out of proportion, to put it at its mildest. Do you really mean that?[/quote

 

Did I really say or mean they should be "grateful to be burnt to death" ... No I didn't ... The argument by some has been that they are poor and because they are poor they have been left to rot in some cesspit for years ... My point is that if poor is to live rent free to the tune of 25k a year plus other benefits in a 10 million pound recently renovated building then poor aint all that bad is it and I don't think the word poor is the correct word to describe them

 

I was taught that poverty was a relative concept like temperature. To describe someone as poor provides a measure of their share of the wealth enjoyed by the society in which they live.

 

Veronica