Grenfell Tower

[John52]

PS: Looks like Jeremy Corbyn did do a walkabout. I don't think anyone expected that of Theresa May.. But she could at least have spoken to a few of the survivors?

[tonyishuk]

Probably more worrying is some jihadist carrying a can of petrol near some of these named clad buildings in the media.

 

Rgds

[John52]

StuartO - 2017-06-16 8:52 AM

 

I expect we'll learn that councils, short of money, were taking the cheaper option of combustable cladding,

 

Kensington & Chelsea is the richest borough in the country. Not short of money when you see what they pay their Chief Exec. And the cheaper option would be no cladding as originally built.

[Violet1956]

John52 - 2017-06-16 6:56 PM

 

Violet1956 - 2017-06-16 6:45 PM

will do little to ease our housing crisis.

 

The difference in price of land with planning permission and that without is what makes most money - if thats not a recipe for corruption I don't know what is. The more planning permission granted, the less that difference would be and the less scope for corruption.

That aside, surely any new homes will ease the housing crisis?

 

I think you and I would agree John that the scope for corruption is probably more than we would contemplate. I am happy for areas of the green belt to be identified as suitable for development but I want that development to reflect the need for more social housing and I don't trust the private sector to do that. I want local authorities to be given the funds to build social housing on green belt land and to retain the management of it.

 

Veronica

 

[John52]

Violet1956 - 2017-06-16 7:24 PM

I can understand that security concerns may have restricted what the Prime Minister could do in terms of meeting the public

Veronica

I don't think anyone expected her to walk among the people like Jeremy Corbyn.

But she avoided them altogether.

Could she not have met some of them in a safe location like the Queen did?.

 

[John52]

Violet1956 - 2017-06-16 7:46 PM

 

John52 - 2017-06-16 6:56 PM

 

Violet1956 - 2017-06-16 6:45 PM

will do little to ease our housing crisis.

 

The difference in price of land with planning permission and that without is what makes most money - if thats not a recipe for corruption I don't know what is. The more planning permission granted, the less that difference would be and the less scope for corruption.

That aside, surely any new homes will ease the housing crisis?

 

I think you and I would agree John that the scope for corruption is probably more than we would contemplate. I am happy for areas of the green belt to be identified as suitable for development but I want that development to reflect the need for more social housing and I don't trust the private sector to do that. I want local authorities to be given the funds to build social housing on green belt land and to retain the management of it.

 

Veronica

 

Government intervention in the housing market is the problem, not the solution.

Sack the planning committies and let the builders build enough houses. Then competition between landlords will improve standards :-D

[John52]

PS: If you build social housing at below market prices who gets it is as big a recipe for corruption as their planning system.

Wheras if you sack the planners so we can build enough houses the market price will come down, and competition between Landlords will improve standards.(>)

But thats obviously not what they really want is it?. Landlords in the Establishment are making too much money out of the housing crisis the way it is :-S

They only want a free market when it suits them. So what we have is Socialism for the Rich (Landlords).

[Bulletguy]

John52 - 2017-06-16 7:47 PM

 

Violet1956 - 2017-06-16 7:24 PM

I can understand that security concerns may have restricted what the Prime Minister could do in terms of meeting the public

Veronica

I don't think anyone expected her to walk among the people like Jeremy Corbyn.

But she avoided them altogether.

Could she not have met some of them in a safe location like the Queen did?.

It seems she met relatives of the missing in a nearby church.....but then scurried away when the crowd began shouting "get her out" as there were fears May could be "trapped in the church"! She left by a back door to shouts of "coward".......and that's from the Torygraph.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/16/london-fire-latest-updates-grenfell-tower-fire-victims/

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-40298473

[antony1969]

Bulletguy - 2017-06-16 8:16 PM

 

John52 - 2017-06-16 7:47 PM

 

Violet1956 - 2017-06-16 7:24 PM

I can understand that security concerns may have restricted what the Prime Minister could do in terms of meeting the public

Veronica

I don't think anyone expected her to walk among the people like Jeremy Corbyn.

But she avoided them altogether.

Could she not have met some of them in a safe location like the Queen did?.

It seems she met relatives of the missing in a nearby church.....but then scurried away when the crowd began shouting "get her out" as there were fears May could be "trapped in the church"! She left by a back door to shouts of "coward".......and that's from the Torygraph.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/16/london-fire-latest-updates-grenfell-tower-fire-victims/

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-40298473

 

What they shouted they shouted , Im sure she's heard worse ... The local residents are being used by a much more intelligent left wing attempt to politicise the fire ... They are being used and dont realise it

[starvin marvin]

antony1969 - 2017-06-16 6:25 PM

 

Now that predictable rioting didn't take long did it ... Compassion going quickly when innocent journalists and vehicles are attacked ... Could be the start of fun

 

There you go getting yourself all hot and bothered again. Probably best discribed as a disturbance or maybe a breach of the peace.

[antony1969]

starvin marvin - 2017-06-16 8:51 PM

 

antony1969 - 2017-06-16 6:25 PM

 

Now that predictable rioting didn't take long did it ... Compassion going quickly when innocent journalists and vehicles are attacked ... Could be the start of fun

 

There you go getting yourself all hot and bothered again. Probably best discribed as a disturbance or maybe a breach of the peace.

 

Given its your party thats egged them on to demonstrate thats the kind of answer i'd expect from yourself ... Hot and bothered by the way is a rather unfortunate and ill thought out comment to make to someone regarding this subject

[Violet1956]

John52 - 2017-06-16 8:06 PM

 

PS: If you build social housing at below market prices who gets it is as big a recipe for corruption as their planning system.

Wheras if you sack the planners so we can build enough houses the market price will come down, and competition between Landlords will improve standards.(>)

But thats obviously not what they really want is it?. Landlords in the Establishment are making too much money out of the housing crisis the way it is :-S

They only want a free market when it suits them. So what we have is Socialism for the Rich (Landlords).

 

I'm not following where you are on this John. Don't our planning laws and the people who give effect to them serve a myriad of concerns about the safety and well being of all of us? I really can't see how the absence of planning laws enforced by the planners would the best solution to the housing crisis. A system which allows people to by build wherever they like, whatever they like regardless of infrastructure seems a recipe for disaster to me.

 

Veronica

[starvin marvin]

nowtelse2do - 2017-06-16 7:19 PM

 

starvin marvin - 2017-06-16 6:45 PM

 

nowtelse2do - 2017-06-16 6:28 PM

 

I know there are a lot of questions to be asked. My first question would be, " what the hell was in the fridge to enable an explosion that could blow the door off"?

 

Dave

 

Clearly we need to know where Michael Caine was. Just let the fire investigators do their job before commenting.

 

Oh!! Sorry, didn't realise I couldn't make any comments.

 

Note to oneself.......... Don't make comments until full public enquiry ends in ten years time.

 

Now don't be silly, I said fire investigators, not a public inquiry.

[John52]

Violet1956 - 2017-06-16 9:11 PM

A system which allows people to by build wherever they like, whatever they like regardless of infrastructure seems a recipe for disaster to me.

 

Veronica

 

Its not ideal but can't be worse than what we have now?

Like the parking regulations - a good idea but taken to such extremes we would probably be better off with no regulation at all?

If they build where there is no infrastructure they will be the losers because nobody will want to buy the houses they have built.

 

[John52]

Theresa May is sending Kensington and Chelsea Council £5 million. Which seems to me like throwing money at a spoilt child. They are already the richest borough in Britain.

The problem is not shortage of money - Its Bad Management' :-(

I would be asking why their highly paid 'experts' would rather spend money on combustible cladding than fire sprinklers.

[StuartO]

The Telegraph is running a front page story today about hard left activists hijacking the Grenfell Tower protests.  Haven't seen anything elsewhere in the media yet but it makes sense that their involvement would account for the rapid mobilisation, perhaps also most of the anger and the violent nature of what was happening at Kensington Town Hall. 

 

It struck me as unnatural that a child on a man's shoulders who was ranting at Sadiq Kahn ("how many children have died ? .....") with what sounded like a preprepared soundbite outburst. There was another attention-grabbing protester who was banging on about missing family and friends who declined to give any names for them, which sounded very suspicious.

 

Afro-Carribeans are inclined to react in a highly emotional way compared with British stiff upper lip and stoicism but anger and riotous behaviour?  Muslim women in headscarves aren't usually the ranting sort either.

 

This tower block fire was a horrible thing to happen and it needs investigating to ensure there are no repeats as quickly as possible - and the displaced residents need to be helped to find somewhere else to stay too.  And if someone needs accomodation in the same arrea to get to their job or whatever, then we should do our best to accomodate that.  But scattering open-ended promises about just to try to quieten the bandwagon activists isn't going to achieve much I would have thought.

 

[John52]

StuartO - 2017-06-17 11:55 AM

 

The Telegraph is running a front page story today about hard left activists hijacking the Grenfell Tower >

Which is a bit rich for a hard right activist ''newspaper'' that hijacks everything else.

People have a right to be angry. British stiff upper lip stoicism hasn't done them much good has it?

[StuartO]

John52 - 2017-06-17 12:13 PM

StuartO - 2017-06-17 11:55 AMThe Telegraph is running a front page story today about hard left activists hijacking the Grenfell Tower >

Which is a bit rich for a hard right activist ''newspaper'' that hijacks everything else.People have a right to be angry. British stiff upper lip stoicism hasn't done them much good has it?

What are you saying John, that it's OK to be angry (and violent and accusing of others) even if the occassion is someone else's be angry about?  Even if the people who were directly affected are shocked and grieving rather than ranting and angry about left wing issues?

[PJay]

nowtelse2do - 2017-06-16 6:28 PM

 

I know there are a lot of questions to be asked. My first question would be, " what the hell was in the fridge to enable an explosion that could blow the door off"?

 

Dave

 

A bomb Maybe? He helped the fire to spread by leaving his door open and not containing the fire

PJay

[starvin marvin]

antony1969 - 2017-06-16 8:57 PM

 

starvin marvin - 2017-06-16 8:51 PM

 

antony1969 - 2017-06-16 6:25 PM

 

Now that predictable rioting didn't take long did it ... Compassion going quickly when innocent journalists and vehicles are attacked ... Could be the start of fun

 

There you go getting yourself all hot and bothered again. Probably best discribed as a disturbance or maybe a breach of the peace.

 

Given its your party thats egged them on to demonstrate thats the kind of answer i'd expect from yourself ... Hot and bothered by the way is a rather unfortunate and ill thought out comment to make to someone regarding this subject

 

Good to see you have not lost your sense of the ridiculous.

[antony1969]

starvin marvin - 2017-06-17 3:38 PM

 

antony1969 - 2017-06-16 8:57 PM

 

starvin marvin - 2017-06-16 8:51 PM

 

antony1969 - 2017-06-16 6:25 PM

 

Now that predictable rioting didn't take long did it ... Compassion going quickly when innocent journalists and vehicles are attacked ... Could be the start of fun

 

There you go getting yourself all hot and bothered again. Probably best discribed as a disturbance or maybe a breach of the peace.

 

Given its your party thats egged them on to demonstrate thats the kind of answer i'd expect from yourself ... Hot and bothered by the way is a rather unfortunate and ill thought out comment to make to someone regarding this subject

 

Good to see you have not lost your sense of the ridiculous.

 

 

Not at all , I can still see clearly whats ridiculous ... The desperate politicising by the left to sabotage an accidental fire to overturn a government is ridiculous but yet the same people stay quiet only holding candlelit vigils daring not to say Islamic terrorist when they continue to blow our children up ... Thats ridiculous

[Brian Kirby]

The police are now saying the number of suspected dead and missing is 58, and expected to rise. Whatever their status or origins, these were people. To read some of the comments in this string, one could imagine they might have been rodents. Humanity seems in short supply in some quarters, with this catastrophic failure being used to promote some posters' pet political and ethnic prejudices.

 

This fire should not have been possible. Each flat is supposed to be a fire compartment that, under normal circumstances of a domestic fire, will retain its integrity so that the fire cannot spread. That is the reason people are advised to stay put while the fire brigade extinguishes the fire. Mass evacuation of the estimated 400-600 inhabitants would lose valuable time, as the staircase would be choked by the evacuees, preventing the fire brigade from gaining access.

 

There is a procedure for approving the form of construction, the materials used, the way pipes and cables pass from one fire compartment to another, the position and specification of doors, both inside flats and on escape routes, to ensure that these standards are observed, and the work is inspected as it progresses. Occupation can only take place when all approvals have been granted and the finished work certified completed to standard.

 

This fire did not appear to spread internally, but by breaking out of a window of the flat first affected, and then igniting thermal insulation that had been applied to the exterior of the building.

 

At 24 storeys, the building will have been a little over 200 feet tall. So, you now have 200+ feet of vertical insulation enveloping the building. It is clear from the pictures that the fire ran up the exterior, so will have broken in to upper floors through windows, either open or shattered by the heat.

 

My experience of fire regulations in London is that no combustible material may be used on the exterior of a building, even to the extend of insisting that timber battens could not be used to attach metal cladding, and that non-combustible battens must be substituted. National Building Regulations also ban the use of combustible materials in or on the external walls of residential buildings in multiple occupation, for exactly the reason that fire could then spread vertically from floor to floor.

 

Unless someone has catastrophically relaxed the regulations over the past few years, and I'm unaware that they have, that fire should not have been possible. That it did occur, and that it spread up the building so fast, points to an error of almost unimaginable proportions somewhere in the design, approval, installation, inspection, or certification process.

 

It is there, and not which politician went walkabout first, or which party had a majority in the council or government at the time, that the answers will be found. The nature of the design, the procedure for approval, the adherence to specification, the inspection regime, and the certification for occupation are all documented, and all those involved at each stage all have copies of drawings, specifications, and contracts.

 

Because of the high loss of life there will be a criminal investigation, and documents will be combed to establish who authorised what, and on what conditions. The lower floors of the building still have apparently undamaged cladding in place. Those will be examined to verify that what was used was what had been specified. I would imagine tests will be set up at the Fire Research Station to replicate, and observe, how the materials behave in fire, and whether the materials themselves behave as they were supposed to.

 

When all the facts are known it seems to me likely that prosecution, possibly prosecutions, will follow. Whether those will be of individuals or companies, or both, will have to await the outcomes of the various investigations now proceeding. Only then will we know what went wrong, and why.

 

It seems to me basic decency to await the facts, rather than continue using a human tragedy on this scale to score petty political points on an internet forum primarily dedicated to motorhoming. Is it just me?

[Violet1956]

It was inevitable that political point scoring would form part of the aftermath of this tragedy. Having started this thread about the Prime Minister’s response I am a little regretful I must say. I have asked myself is it likely that she feels no concern about what happened and the answer must be that this is highly unlikely. Whatever one’s politics the government of the day and especially the Prime Minister is going to face criticism. It is becoming more evident that it was not safe for her to enter the very volatile atmosphere at the site of this disaster. I will have more respect for Jeremy Corbyn if he acknowledges how much easier it was for him to engage with the people who had been affected than the Prime Minister.

 

For now let us hope that nothing like this ever happens again.

 

Veronica

[antony1969]

Brian Kirby - 2017-06-17 5:47 PM

 

The police are now saying the number of suspected dead and missing is 58, and expected to rise. Whatever their status or origins, these were people. To read some of the comments in this string, one could imagine they might have been rodents. Humanity seems in short supply in some quarters, with this catastrophic failure being used to promote some posters' pet political and ethnic prejudices.

 

This fire should not have been possible. Each flat is supposed to be a fire compartment that, under normal circumstances of a domestic fire, will retain its integrity so that the fire cannot spread. That is the reason people are advised to stay put while the fire brigade extinguishes the fire. Mass evacuation of the estimated 400-600 inhabitants would lose valuable time, as the staircase would be choked by the evacuees, preventing the fire brigade from gaining access.

 

There is a procedure for approving the form of construction, the materials used, the way pipes and cables pass from one fire compartment to another, the position and specification of doors, both inside flats and on escape routes, to ensure that these standards are observed, and the work is inspected as it progresses. Occupation can only take place when all approvals have been granted and the finished work certified completed to standard.

 

This fire did not appear to spread internally, but by breaking out of a window of the flat first affected, and then igniting thermal insulation that had been applied to the exterior of the building.

 

At 24 storeys, the building will have been a little over 200 feet tall. So, you now have 200+ feet of vertical insulation enveloping the building. It is clear from the pictures that the fire ran up the exterior, so will have broken in to upper floors through windows, either open or shattered by the heat.

 

My experience of fire regulations in London is that no combustible material may be used on the exterior of a building, even to the extend of insisting that timber battens could not be used to attach metal cladding, and that non-combustible battens must be substituted. National Building Regulations also ban the use of combustible materials in or on the external walls of residential buildings in multiple occupation, for exactly the reason that fire could then spread vertically from floor to floor.

 

Unless someone has catastrophically relaxed the regulations over the past few years, and I'm unaware that they have, that fire should not have been possible. That it did occur, and that it spread up the building so fast, points to an error of almost unimaginable proportions somewhere in the design, approval, installation, inspection, or certification process.

 

It is there, and not which politician went walkabout first, or which party had a majority in the council or government at the time, that the answers will be found. The nature of the design, the procedure for approval, the adherence to specification, the inspection regime, and the certification for occupation are all documented, and all those involved at each stage all have copies of drawings, specifications, and contracts.

 

Because of the high loss of life there will be a criminal investigation, and documents will be combed to establish who authorised what, and on what conditions. The lower floors of the building still have apparently undamaged cladding in place. Those will be examined to verify that what was used was what had been specified. I would imagine tests will be set up at the Fire Research Station to replicate, and observe, how the materials behave in fire, and whether the materials themselves behave as they were supposed to.

 

When all the facts are known it seems to me likely that prosecution, possibly prosecutions, will follow. Whether those will be of individuals or companies, or both, will have to await the outcomes of the various investigations now proceeding. Only then will we know what went wrong, and why.

 

It seems to me basic decency to await the facts, rather than continue using a human tragedy on this scale to score petty political points on an internet forum primarily dedicated to motorhoming. Is it just me?

 

Wrong ... Its not petty political points on a motorhome forum you need to be concerned about ... The petty political point scoring as a whole by the left aimed at the gullible has been disgraceful and it started almost immediately after the event ... On here I think everyone is set in their ways and opinions don't change regardless of whats posted ... In the bigger world especially with the young as targets they are swung by nonsense at times , this seems to be one of those moments and its disgraceful

[teflon2]

Brian Kirby - 2017-06-17 5:47 PM

 

The police are now saying the number of suspected dead and missing is 58, and expected to rise. Whatever their status or origins, these were people. To read some of the comments in this string, one could imagine they might have been rodents. Humanity seems in short supply in some quarters, with this catastrophic failure being used to promote some posters' pet political and ethnic prejudices.

 

This fire should not have been possible. Each flat is supposed to be a fire compartment that, under normal circumstances of a domestic fire, will retain its integrity so that the fire cannot spread. That is the reason people are advised to stay put while the fire brigade extinguishes the fire. Mass evacuation of the estimated 400-600 inhabitants would lose valuable time, as the staircase would be choked by the evacuees, preventing the fire brigade from gaining access.

 

There is a procedure for approving the form of construction, the materials used, the way pipes and cables pass from one fire compartment to another, the position and specification of doors, both inside flats and on escape routes, to ensure that these standards are observed, and the work is inspected as it progresses. Occupation can only take place when all approvals have been granted and the finished work certified completed to standard.

 

This fire did not appear to spread internally, but by breaking out of a window of the flat first affected, and then igniting thermal insulation that had been applied to the exterior of the building.

 

At 24 storeys, the building will have been a little over 200 feet tall. So, you now have 200+ feet of vertical insulation enveloping the building. It is clear from the pictures that the fire ran up the exterior, so will have broken in to upper floors through windows, either open or shattered by the heat.

 

My experience of fire regulations in London is that no combustible material may be used on the exterior of a building, even to the extend of insisting that timber battens could not be used to attach metal cladding, and that non-combustible battens must be substituted. National Building Regulations also ban the use of combustible materials in or on the external walls of residential buildings in multiple occupation, for exactly the reason that fire could then spread vertically from floor to floor.

 

Unless someone has catastrophically relaxed the regulations over the past few years, and I'm unaware that they have, that fire should not have been possible. That it did occur, and that it spread up the building so fast, points to an error of almost unimaginable proportions somewhere in the design, approval, installation, inspection, or certification process.

 

It is there, and not which politician went walkabout first, or which party had a majority in the council or government at the time, that the answers will be found. The nature of the design, the procedure for approval, the adherence to specification, the inspection regime, and the certification for occupation are all documented, and all those involved at each stage all have copies of drawings, specifications, and contracts.

 

Because of the high loss of life there will be a criminal investigation, and documents will be combed to establish who authorised what, and on what conditions. The lower floors of the building still have apparently undamaged cladding in place. Those will be examined to verify that what was used was what had been specified. I would imagine tests will be set up at the Fire Research Station to replicate, and observe, how the materials behave in fire, and whether the materials themselves behave as they were supposed to.

 

When all the facts are known it seems to me likely that prosecution, possibly prosecutions, will follow. Whether those will be of individuals or companies, or both, will have to await the outcomes of the various investigations now proceeding. Only then will we know what went wrong, and why.

 

It seems to me basic decency to await the facts, rather than continue using a human tragedy on this scale to score petty political points on an internet forum primarily dedicated to motorhoming. Is it just me?

 

 

 

 

 

Totally correct Brian I don't often agree with your opinions but having spent 40+ years in the building industry I know the fire regs. are sacrosanct some thing has gone tragically wrong here and it's a human tragedy people died it's a time for little sympathy not a point scoring match./JohnQUOTE]