Grenfell Tower

[StuartO]

antony1969 - 2017-06-19 6:35 AM Did I really say or mean they should be "grateful to be burnt to death" ... No I didn't ... The argument by some has been that they are poor and because they are poor they have been left to rot in some cesspit for years ... My point is that if poor is to live rent free to the tune of 25k a year plus other benefits in a 10 million pound recently renovated building then poor aint all that bad is it and I don't think the word poor is the correct word to describe them

 

Haven't poor (or at least problem) families always ultimately been left to rot somewhere?

 

I was brought up in Blackburn, Lancashire which was a Labour Town and Council.  There was a lot of social housing and one of my uncle/aunts/cousins families lived in a fairly modern council house.  It was a three bedroom semi and not much different from the three bedroom semi my parents had recntly bought by the time I was leaving home in 1962, after living for most of my life to date in a terraced house with an outside toilet.  My Dad had a good job and my parents new home was neater and had a better garden than my uncle and aunt's place but at least they both had a bathroom and indoor toilet.

 

It was well known in Blackburn that there was one much better council estate where the houses were all very nice semis with neat front gardens and the aire of good quality private housing about them - but the occupants were all either Councillors or their relatives or nominees.

 

There were much rougher council estates too and I got the impression that the problem families gravitated there, so that they each looked at the mess their neighbours made of their houses and gardens and lifestyles.

 

So corruption was probably rife but at the same time the decent people got looked after and the rough ones likewise, but not quite so well.

 

But I don't think it had much to do with being poor - although the problem families were also such failures in life that they probably would be relatively poor.  Not all poor families are problem families of course.

 

And were the residents of Grenfell Tower problem families?  It's not clear to me that this was the case at all.  And if they were problem families, wouldn't you have to wonder about how much their own failures and the mess they lived in exacerbated the risk of living in a high rise block of flats, even if the flamable cladding was a big mistake?  If the fire spread up the outside of the building, why did it also spread up the inside?

 

[John52]

antony1969 - 2017-06-18 7:31 PM

When I had a mortgage I didn't see any of that so what's your point ... they are provided with free , yes free accommodation probably without paying much into the system or ever paid anything in ... The rent is paid to the landlord directly on their behalf as they'd probably spend it on necessary things like phones and cigs otherwise

 

They are not getting £25k a year or whatever. the landlord is getting that. all they are getting is a firetrap slave box. We should remember that when considering how grateful they should be.

[antony1969]

John52 - 2017-06-19 9:00 AM

 

antony1969 - 2017-06-18 7:31 PM

When I had a mortgage I didn't see any of that so what's your point ... they are provided with free , yes free accommodation probably without paying much into the system or ever paid anything in ... The rent is paid to the landlord directly on their behalf as they'd probably spend it on necessary things like phones and cigs otherwise

 

They are not getting £25k a year or whatever. the landlord is getting that. all they are getting is a firetrap slave box. We should remember that when considering how grateful they should be.

 

Don't be silly

[John52]

Bulletguy - 2017-06-18 7:35 PM

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/grenfell-tower-flammable-cladding-banned-in-uk-philip-hammond-germany-us-a7795696.html

So the Royal Borough used illegal cladding to save £6000.

I wondered what their Chief Executive gets paid so looked on their website since they have a legal obligation to disclose it. But that doesn't work either

https://www.rbkc.gov.uk/council-and-democracy/open-data-and-transparency/transparency-and-open-data/senior-staff-information

 

[John52]

StuartO - 2017-06-19 8:34 AM If the fire spread up the outside of the building, why did it also spread up the inside?

Residents have said the recently installed gas pipes were not fireproofed as per building regs.

[John52]

Brian Kirby - 2017-06-18 10:16 PM

"Spreadsheet Phil"

I remember him as Essex wide-boy car salesman and thought 'Spreadsheet Phil' was just an image makeover for when he branched out into politics?

[Bulletguy]

Brian Kirby - 2017-06-18 10:16 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2017-06-18 7:35 PM.........................................And in UK according to Hammond.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/grenfell-tower-flammable-cladding-banned-in-uk-philip-hammond-germany-us-a7795696.html

"Spreadsheet Phil" might be better advised to stick to being Chancellor of the Exchequer, than trying to play Building Control Officer on the side, don't you think? :-D

Possibly......i just spotted it in the news after John mentioned it was banned in Germany. I assume the ban of it's use as a building material came after.....similar to asbestos and red ash.

 

 

 

Brian Kirby - 2017-06-18 10:19 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2017-06-18 7:46 PM

 

Brian Kirby - 2017-06-18 6:08 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2017-06-18 12:07 PM

 

John52 - 2017-06-17 10:46 PM

 

Brian Kirby - 2017-06-17 10:36 PM

 

John52 - 2017-06-17 9:25 PM................................

1 Thatcher shifted the onus on fire prevention from the fire authority to the landlord.

2 Spending money on cheap combustible pretty cladding instead of fire sprinklers is not the decision of a fireman is it?

3 Thats the decision of a politician :-(

1 Not on any project I've even been involved in. If I said where's your evidence for that, what would you say?

2 According to statements made by the senior fire officer involved, as I understand him, yes, it still is. Sprinklers are not a panacea for safety, and have always been second preference to compartmentation. I wouldn't want to bet on which would have been the cheapest, the sprinklers or the cladding, but I'd be a mite surprised if either would prove much different in cost to the other.

3 Well who actually made that decision? Do you know?

 

I read it recently about Thatcher moving fire inspection responsibilities from the Fire Brigade I think in the FT and will try and find it again

The link I posted earlier compares the cost of sprinklers and cladding http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-40290158

Apart from the known extreme divisions in the London wealth gap, this bit in that linked article stood out to me.

 

The International Fire Sprinkler Association (IFSA) says that automatic fire sprinkler systems are the single most effective fire protection measure available, and are able to make up for a wide range of other fire protection deficiencies.

 

There has never been a multiple loss of life from a fire developing in a building protected by a properly designed, installed and maintained fire sprinkler system. While fire sprinkler systems have been required in new high-rise residential buildings in England since 2007, it is not compulsory to retrofit them into existing buildings. So Grenfell Tower had none.

 

From it's build history Grenfell Tower seems to be yet another 'modern day' slum which should have been condemned years ago, but we continue to hold on to these shoddy relics The same can be said for new build estates....tiny little boxes with folk living cheek by jowl. It's just a modern version of 1930's terraced property though possibly poorer built.

 

UK has masses open land but the only way to realise just how much is taking a flight on one of those rare cloudless blue sky days. Estates are clumped together like wagon trains from the wild west, then absolutely nothing but open land for mile after mile.....until the next estate appears.

So, where, in a country that is not even self-sufficient in milk, would you put the cows? :-D

Milton Keynes. ;-)

They're bleedin' concrete, Paul! :-D

Eeeeee Brian.........i never had you down as sloooooww!!! Apart from the obvious i thought the emoticon alone would have told you! :D

[Bulletguy]

John52 - 2017-06-19 9:26 AM

 

Bulletguy - 2017-06-18 7:35 PM

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/grenfell-tower-flammable-cladding-banned-in-uk-philip-hammond-germany-us-a7795696.html

So the Royal Borough used illegal cladding to save £6000.

I wondered what their Chief Executive gets paid so looked on their website since they have a legal obligation to disclose it. But that doesn't work either

https://www.rbkc.gov.uk/council-and-democracy/open-data-and-transparency/transparency-and-open-data/senior-staff-information

It's looking that way from that article though will need thorough investigation. The legalities depend at what point it was fitted. Council CE's are six figure salaries.

 

I used to work in a building where the walls and ceiling were clad with asbestos. None of us knew until sub-contractors came in to work on roof repair. As soon as they discovered there was asbestos they abandoned the job, cancelled the contract and cleared off pronto. They even left part of their scaffolding behind which was still there years later. But in that case, asbestos had been used before it became outlawed.

 

 

[snowie]

I don't know who made the following observation but I think it's very relevant to note, that uk housing standards , public and private are very poor certainly in comparison to Europe.

If any good comes from this it will be also in the BuilDIng Standards we apply to the basic place to live, public or private.

Both of my kids live in apartments in Europe, rented, and the standards and value for money are vastly superior to here.

Been a long time coming, such unnecessary circumstances

 

From it's build history Grenfell Tower seems to be yet another 'moderFrom it's build history Grenfell Tower seems to be yet another 'modern day' slum which should have been condemned years ago, but we continue to hold on to these shoddy relics The same can be said for new build estates....tiny little boxes with folk living cheek by jowl. It's just a modern version of 1930's terraced property though possibly poorer built.

 

UK has masses open land but the only way to realise just how much is taking a flight on one of those rare cloudless blue sky days. Estates are clumped together like wagon trains from the wild west, then absolutely nothing but open land for mile after mile.....until the next estate appears.n day' slum which should have been condemned years ago, but we continue to hold on to these shoddy relics The same can be said for new build estates....tiny little boxes with folk living cheek by jowl. It's just a modern version of 1930's terraced property though possibly poorer built.

 

UK has masses open land but the only way to realise just how much is taking a flight on one of those rare cloudless blue sky days. Estates are clumped together like wagon trains from the wild west, then absolutely nothing but open land for mile after mile.....until the next estate appears.

Unquote

 

Regards

Alan b

[antony1969]

Talking of poor people like Grendell residents are being described ... On a local church job today and just before having my lunch witnessed the 12 o clock food bag giveaway to some of our poor .... just seven of em here to collect but while the desperate poor were waiting for the much needed food they can't afford 3 of em were texting away on phones and all but one were smoking ... Those food donaters can sleep easier tonight that the needy are eating

[antony1969]

More of the poor now looking in their bags and complaining about the biscuits they've got ... apparently the needy hungry poor wanted bourbons ! ... Two of em are at least enjoying the cider they've got from the shop I presume ... We'll it is hot init

[John52]

antony1969 - 2017-06-19 1:05 PM

 

More of the poor now looking in their bags and complaining about the biscuits they've got ... apparently the needy hungry poor wanted bourbons ! ... Two of em are at least enjoying the cider they've got from the shop I presume ... We'll it is hot init

 

We've just spent £400 million on doing up one of their palaces. Did we get a Thank You for that ?

[John52]

The council responsible for Grenfell Tower, where at least 58 people are now thought to have lost their lives after Wednesday's horrific fire, has been accused of carrying out “unacceptable” financial practises after it emerged the borough had stockpiled £274m of usable reserves following years of chronic underspending." http://www.independent.co.uk/topic/grenfell-tower

So will be £279 million now Therersa May has given them another £5 million.

But then I suppose she wants to be seen doing something?

[Bulletguy]

snowie - 2017-06-19 11:43 AM

 

I don't know who made the following observation but I think it's very relevant to note, that uk housing standards , public and private are very poor certainly in comparison to Europe.

If any good comes from this it will be also in the Building Standards we apply to the basic place to live, public or private.

Both of my kids live in apartments in Europe, rented, and the standards and value for money are vastly superior to here. Been a long time coming, such unnecessary circumstances.

It was one of my posts you quoted Alan and you are absolutely right re. "poor in comparison to Europe". I've seen both new build and completed property in Switzerland and they are light years ahead of UK. Yes i know the price is not cheap but they are solidly constructed with attention to the finest detail. Swiss simply never accept 'second best' and shoddy workmanship is unthinkable. That's their 'psyche'....even they will admit that.

 

No doubt about it land in Switzerland is expensive....but try and find housing estates of "new builds" like we build here, they are virtually unheard of. Most Swiss properties are separated by a good few metres. Even the few city "high rise" blocks are built to a superb standard.

 

But we also differ in that the majority of British are obsessed with private home ownership where in Switzerland the majority rent. The huge difference there though is even after taking income differences into account, Swiss rental is comparatively low to UK......but they get a far higher standard of place to live in than British would.

 

A "new build" housing estate was built near where i live a few years ago. About 50 properties crammed into a space Swiss would build half that amount on. Each has a "garage"......but their cars stand out on the drive because even a mid range saloon is too big and God knows what their furniture must be like as the houses are tiny. The properties got thrown up in a matter of weeks and sold at £200 - 250k.

 

[Guest pelmetman]

John52 - 2017-06-17 10:21 PM

 

pelmetman - 2017-06-17 9:45 PM

..For how many years after Thatcher were Labour in power? >:-) ........

[/quote

Well none actually - that was 'New Labour

But thats beside the point

What part of my post do you disagree with. ...

Thatcher shifted the onus on fire prevention from the fire authority to the landlord.

Spending money on cheap combustible pretty cladding instead of fire sprinklers is not the decision of a fireman is it?

Thats the decision of a politician

 

IT WAS STILL LABOUR >:-) .......

 

 

 

 

 

[John52]

pelmetman - 2017-06-19 10:04 PM

 

John52 - 2017-06-17 10:21 PM

 

pelmetman - 2017-06-17 9:45 PM

..For how many years after Thatcher were Labour in power? >:-) ........

[/quote

Well none actually - that was 'New Labour

But thats beside the point

What part of my post do you disagree with. ...

Thatcher shifted the onus on fire prevention from the fire authority to the landlord.

Spending money on cheap combustible pretty cladding instead of fire sprinklers is not the decision of a fireman is it?

Thats the decision of a politician

 

IT WAS STILL LABOUR >:-) .......

 

 

 

 

 

The Royal Borough responsible for Grenfell Tower has been Tory from beginning to end. And beyond - with £274 million spare cash left its victims reliant on charity handouts in the street until Theresa May sent them £5 million taxed from poorer boroughs.

[John52]

ps as I told RogerC when you type in capitals it apparently upsets the forum software so the reply goes in the quote box.

Instead of typing in capitals can't you just put the meaning in brackets at the side (shouting/screaming/foaming at the mouth/whatever) *-)

[John52]

antony1969 - 2017-06-16 6:25 PM

 

Now that predictable rioting didn't take long did it ... Compassion going quickly when innocent journalists and vehicles are attacked ... Could be the start of fun

 

Official inquiries tend to take forever and end up with a whitewash. Especially where the guilty are politicians and lawyers who are experts in obfuscation and delay - aided by the billionaire press who cast slurs on the victims like they did over Hillsborough.

So the victims storm the Town Hall to protest in the only way they know how.

I also feel sorry for the police because they have seen this tragedy first hand so must have sympathy wit h the victims. But are forced into opposition with them - and have to police the area afterwards .

[StuartO]

John52 - 2017-06-20 7:01 AM .....So the victims storm the Town Hall to protest in the only way they know how....

 

I got the impression that the protesters were all people who "had friends" in Grenfell Tower, rather than victims themselves, all of whom seem to be adoptin a very low prodfile.  Perhaps they have been spirirted away to luxury hotels, somewhere where the press can't reach them!

 

[antony1969]

John52 - 2017-06-20 7:01 AM

 

antony1969 - 2017-06-16 6:25 PM

 

Now that predictable rioting didn't take long did it ... Compassion going quickly when innocent journalists and vehicles are attacked ... Could be the start of fun

 

Official inquiries tend to take forever and end up with a whitewash. Especially where the guilty are politicians and lawyers who are experts in obfuscation and delay - aided by the billionaire press who cast slurs on the victims like they did over Hillsborough.

So the victims storm the Town Hall to protest in the only way they know how.

I also feel sorry for the police because they have seen this tragedy first hand so must have sympathy wit h the victims. But are forced into opposition with them - and have to police the area afterwards .

 

So it's quite acceptable to beat journalists up then and damage vehicles ??? Londons welfare bill for the working age group in 2011/12 was 36 billion quid ... Not a bad little earner that guvnor ... Poor taxpayer and poor the poor

[John52]

StuartO - 2017-06-20 8:29 AM

John52 - 2017-06-20 7:01 AM .....So the victims storm the Town Hall to protest in the only way they know how....

 

I got the impression that the protesters were all people who "had friends" in Grenfell Tower, rather than victims themselves, all of whom seem to be adoptin a very low prodfile.  Perhaps they have been spirirted away to luxury hotels, somewhere where the press can't reach them!

Those who appeared on Panarama last night weren't in luxury hotelsThey have been relying on Charity donations whilst the guilty Royal Borough sits on £250 million.

[John52]

antony1969 - 2017-06-20 8:36 AM

So it's quite acceptable to beat journalists up then and damage vehicles ???

Sounds like the stories they put about Hillsborough Victims. The inquiry will be harder this time. Its the Establishment investigating itself again, but this time the victims are all little people, and those responsible all rich and powerful - they don't need any help from you

 

antony1969 - 2017-06-20 8:36 AM

Londons welfare bill for the working age group in 2011/12 was 36 billion quid ... Not a bad little earner that guvnor .

- for the Landlords, yes.

[John52]

Good article in the Daily Mail for once? .... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2066702/One-Hyde-Park-Only-9-62-Londons-exclusive-flats-pay-council-tax.html

[John52]

Seems the regulations regarding this cladding are far from clear. Hammonds claim it is illegal may be attempt to cover up the fact the Tory Government did not act on the warnings and make the regulations clear.

More concerned with cutting 'red tape' like safety regulations, ''elf & safety gone mad'etc.

Whatever, the buck passing has started already.

The whitewash will be a long and expensive job.

[StuartO]

It seems that a very generous solution to rehousing the survivors of Grenfell Towerhas been found already.  They are to be offered flats in the affordable housing part of a large new development only about 1.5 miles from Grenfell Tower and work is being accelerated there to complete these falts as quickly as possible so that they may move on from July onwards.  It sounds almost too good to be true.