swiftcruiser Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 Is your Fiat X250 Van / Chassis / Motorhome (New shape) fitted with a wind down spare wheel carrier, if you have not already done so,could I suggest, wind down your spare wheel, you may find as I and others have found, the carrier mechanism fails. The only way then to remove the spare wheel will be to cut the cable ! Potentially dangerous if you are on the side of a main road somewhere. Fiat are aware of the carriers failing, will not however assist owners with out of warranty vehicles, but do fit a modified carrier at time of replacement. I have just had to have the carrier replaced on my 2007 Fiat Ducato. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 Hello, This is absolutely true. The carriers that were being used as replacements were unavailable for most of 2010 because they caused more problems than they solved. There is a new version now that I have in stock but have not fitted yet. It is quite different and requires some modifications to the mountings. We thought a couple of our spare wheels had been nicked, but upon closer examination the more scary scenario seemed more likely! Do check the operation of your spare carrier before it's too late. Nick PS. It's also worth mentioning that Ford Transits have a very similar problem, but theirs seem to just jam up rather than disappear altogether. PPS. Fiat Ducato vans and chassis now do not come with a spare wheel at all. Like the lighter vans, they all come with an inflator kit unless you tick the option box for 'full size spare wheel'. It's about £90 which is cheap for a wheel, tyre and carrier but not such a bargain when you think that you used to get it as standard! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terryW Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 euroserv - 2011-03-08 5:28 PM We thought a couple of our spare wheels had been nicked, but upon closer examination the more scary scenario seemed more likely! Nick When I purchased my 08 van the first thing I did was check the spare wheel mechanism worked OK and I could actually get it out. But what really worries me is the fact that it only hangs on by a single cable without any safety features. Very scary and so far I have just pushed the thought to the back of my mind not knowing quite what to do about it. So if anyone has any ideas on ways of improving the safety I would love to hear them. I suppose the morel of this is never travel behind an X250 :-o Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 Dunno, could be quite fun to watch! :-) What happens next depends on how the spare hits the deck. If it lands flat and just skids, possibly on a wet road, then following traffic would have quite a problem but may get away with it. However, if the road were warm and dry, there seems to me an evens chance that the wheel may begin to somersault and, as the carrier is some way forward relative to the rear of many coachbuilts, begin trying to do so while still beneath the van! 25kg of bouncing spare hitting the underside of a "garage" style coachbuilt should be quite spectacular. I have visions of half the rear of the van being demolished before the spare pops out straight at the driver of a following vehicle. Doubtless I just have an over-vivid imagination, but I think the potential ramifications of this very severe indeed, and anyone carrying a underslung spare should remove it immediately and leave it off until the mechanism has been checked and verified safe to use, or changed for one that works safely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 The first "camper" I had, over 20 years ago, was a new Auto-Sleepers Trooper, based on a VW T3. The spare wheel was stored in a hinged "pan", which was suspended under the front of the vehicle, secured by a single (captive) bolt. Shortly after buying it, and coming down the M1 at top speed, the bolt "let go". 8-) You can imagine the noise (and confusion) that ensued. *-) Luckily (and presumably part of conscious design), the pan was hinged at the rear end, so the wheel stayed put. Apart from some deepish scores on the front which was dragged on the ground, the "pan" survived intact as well. A quick re-bolt on the hard shoulder, a bit of a gulp, and off we went. I never did really know who to blame for it (other than myself for not checking - it obviously had not been properly tightened somewhere), but it was regularly checked after that (and, of course, was no further problem). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcob Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 I have fitted a rachet strap under the wheel of my Transit for safety, as I don't trust that weight on the end of a bit of thin wire. Regards Marcob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silverback Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 try thick cable ties B-) you will have to cut them off when you come to get the wheel out :-S but how many times is that gonna happen :-D jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terryW Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 Brian Kirby - 2011-03-08 6:34 PM Doubtless I just have an over-vivid imagination, but I think the potential ramifications of this very severe indeed, and anyone carrying a underslung spare should remove it immediately and leave it off until the mechanism has been checked and verified safe to use, or changed for one that works safely.Brian, I don' think having the mechanism checked addresses the problem. I have checked and serviced mine and cannot find cause for concern in its current condition. The problem is, as i see it, a design weakness. The only securing item is a single Steel Wire Rope which when it fails will release the wheel.The probability of this happening may be small but one day it will happen. Perhaps helped on by over-tension and straining of the cable or under-tension allowing movement while traveling.I thing that my first job in the morning will be to fix some form of safety chain even if I need to put a bolt through the floor of the boot on second thoughts perhaps a long threaded rod that can be released from inside the boot, even if that means sealing it with silicon after each release.I would be interested to know if the latest design still relies on a single cable (?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terryW Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 Just seen the above solutions so big investigation in the morning, still, gets me out of washing the roof ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dshague Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 i will also be under the van in the morningvan in for service next week will ask if this problem is a warranty issue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 ... sometimes I'm glad we've put our spare in the motorhome's garage! 8-) ... if you see someone selling a Fiat spare wheel which is a bit scuffed on one side you know it's been 'found' somewhere!!! :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swiftcruiser Posted March 8, 2011 Author Share Posted March 8, 2011 Interesting observations from my post, whilst seen that carrier winder mechanism just gives up the ghost didn't appreciate that owners were actually loosing the spare wheel from underneath, how common is this situation. The carrier that has just been fitted came by special order from Italy and was fitted by a Fiat Commercial dealer as they advised me some alterations would have to be made. Does include a different spare wheel retaining bracket ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cattwg Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 As this is obviously a safety issue (and possibly a design fault) would VOSA not be interested in this problem? And therefore should it not be sorted by FIAT whether or not the vehicle is in warranty? I have no first hand experience in this type of situation …… I just wondered. Or am I simply wrong? Cattwg :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Collings Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 euroserv - 2011-03-08 5:28 PM Hello, PS. It's also worth mentioning that Ford Transits have a very similar problem, but theirs seem to just jam up rather than disappear altogether. My Auto- Sleepers Medallion has a mid 1990s Ford Transit Spare winch. Witha built in safety catch in case the wire snaps. I am not sure if this feature was deleted on later versions. See pics of transit set up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 Cattwg - 2011-03-08 8:40 PM As this is obviously a safety issue (and possibly a design fault) would VOSA not be interested in this problem? And therefore should it not be sorted by FIAT whether or not the vehicle is in warranty? I have no first hand experience in this type of situation …… I just wondered. Or am I simply wrong? Cattwg :-D Firstly - have Fiat even accepted that it is a design fault - it may well be a design feature - much like their reverse gear ratio - and if it fails it is because the driver did something wrong - like driving it! Secondly - I still don't want an X250! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
everhopeful Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 I can't believe that a known fault of this potential danger could not be the suject of a recall - in warranty or out! A spare wheel is heavy enough to cause a serious accident even if it just ends up lying in the road, but the possibility of it bouncing around on the move is unthinkable. I thought from the start that my wheel was far too easy to pinch so I've got it secured to an overhead cross-member by a wire type bike lock. It shouldn't fall off if the wire gives way, but would probably rock around quite worryingly, maybe enough to catch the road. If a trial of the mechanism fails then that's good. But what to do if it appears to work ok? It may work today and then the wheel just falls off killing someone tomorrow! Is there anything we are supposed to be doing as maintenance of the carrier mechanism? The cable could be greased I suppose, but the ratchet mechanism seems like a closed unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 Tracker - 2011-03-08 9:06 PM Firstly - have Fiat even accepted that it is a design fault - it may well be a design feature - much like their reverse gear ratio - and if it fails it is because the driver did something wrong - like driving it! Secondly - I still don't want an X250!Quite right Richard, but don't worry, Fiat wouldn't be seen dead putting their wonderful, classy, Chassis underneath something as boringly British as an Autocruise. (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 Quite so Peter - Autocruise use Peugeot base vehicles which do have the perception as being a little less down market than Fiat and at least Peugeot dealers have a better attitude than Fiat dealers - not that it would be hard to have a better attitude than Fiat on anything! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flicka Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 Can anyone confirm IF this problem is specific to Fiat Ducato or also the Peugeot Boxer & Citroen Relay also. (?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bolero boy Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 AFAIK the Swift Bolero on Fiat X2/50 went from having a spare in 2007 (we had one) to not having a spare in 2008/9 (it was inflator gunk, we looked at one) to having one in 2010 (we have one now). I have already had experience of changing a wheel in a controlled environment at a tyre depot as we had a slow puncture. The spare was put on the van. I had the pleasure of crawling underneath and trying to use the abomination of a ratchet handle to lower the tyre. Once lowered, getting it off the end spigot is devilishly difficult as the tyre has to be supported while fiddling the spigot through the centre tyre hole. If you think this sounds tricky, I can assure you the reverse process of supporting the tyre while inserting the spigot is nigh impossible, made so much more painful by the fact that the cable dies not unwing sufficiently far enough for the attaching to take place other than under the vehicle. A dreadful piece of non design. As for the safety aspect, I have no idea if I require any change to this fitment. I had the van serviced yesterday and nothing was mentioned. Rgds, Chris ps scraped knuckles guaranteed, patience totally exhausted! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 terryW - 2011-03-08 7:27 PM Brian Kirby - 2011-03-08 6:34 PM ................anyone carrying a underslung spare should remove it immediately and leave it off until the mechanism has been checked and verified safe to use, or changed for one that works safely. Brian, I don' think having the mechanism checked addresses the problem. ................ Just to be clear, Terry, I wasn't suggesting that it would. I went on to say "verified safe to use, or changed for one that works safely". What I mean by that is that it is the safety of the system that has to be verified, and not just whether the carrier is properly supporting the wheel at the time of inspection.I read of a Transit, with a similar mechanism, that had apparently caught the spare on uneven ground, straining the cable so that it subsequently failed, dropping the wheel. Such a system, where a wheel is suspended by a single cable without a secondary attachment, cannot be safe under all the circumstances a vehicle may, realistically, encounter.The underside of a vehicle is a hostile environment, and corrosion of spare wheels, and their carriers, in that environment, is common. The idea of 25kg of spare wheel (half a hundredweight in old money) hanging by a single, corroded, cable is, IMO, merely a hostage to fortune and not at all a proper solution to the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terryW Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 I agree entirely Brian its been bothering me since I saw it and tonight's discussion has prompted me to find some way of providing a secondary securing mechanism as quickly as possible. I just wonder how many are on the road like it. What also appears to be emerging is that on the Fiat there may be more than one arrangement. On mine a special tool is provided to allow the winder to be accessed through the side skirt and the cable is sufficiently long to lower the wheel to the ground and be detached. If I can't find a way to secure it then it's in the boot with it for me :-| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grahamw Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 euroserv - 2011-03-08 5:28 PM The carriers that were being used as replacements were unavailable for most of 2010 because they caused more problems than they solved. There is a new version now that I have in stock but have not fitted yet. It is quite different and requires some modifications to the mountings. We thought a couple of our spare wheels had been nicked, but upon closer examination the more scary scenario seemed more likely! Do check the operation of your spare carrier before it's too late. I would be very interested to have your analysis of the new version once you have fitted one and whether or not you think they are up to the job. I have a new PVC bought in December 2010 (ordered from Fiat July 2010) and had already checked the spare wheel and its mounting and was not too impressed. The cable was already rusting. I don't know whether I have the latest carrier or the earlier one. Can you give me any description of the latest carrier to ascertian which version I have. Graham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwaviation Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 Hmm, food for thought - Has anyone any ideas on some sort of bag or cover for the wheel whilst suspended underneath? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 A couple of weeks ago when I had a blow out on my 99 Transit, I attempted to change the wheel myself :D but after I wound down the spare I found the plastic wing nut which holds the spare to the shoe was seized........didn't know plastic could rust (lol) anyway had to call out the AA as I had no tools with me and they just smashed the wing nut off 8-) As for the camper spare that is in a cradle, which I thought was a pain to access but sounds like its easier than a Fiat :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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