terryW Posted March 20, 2011 Share Posted March 20, 2011 Peter James - 2011-03-20 9:53 AM PS: Just wondered what type of van you have as the only Autoroller 100 (your profile) I have seen is a Ford Transit http://www.rollerteammotorhomes.co.uk/index.php/auto-roller-100.html Ours is an 08 Autoroller 100P on Fiat base and yes the newer ones are on Ford base. I also know a local business that runs Fords for tyre fitting and they have given up on the wheel carriers on their vehicles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted March 20, 2011 Share Posted March 20, 2011 terryW - 2011-03-20 10:45 AM Peter James - 2011-03-20 9:53 AM PS: Just wondered what type of van you have as the only Autoroller 100 (your profile) I have seen is a Ford Transit http://www.rollerteammotorhomes.co.uk/index.php/auto-roller-100.html Ours is an 08 Autoroller 100P on Fiat base and yes the newer ones are on Ford base. I also know a local business that runs Fords for tyre fitting and they have given up on the wheel carriers on their vehicles. Ah, Thanks for the clarification. I wondered what arrangement the other vans have, and whether its any better. I notice cranes have a weight on the end of the lifting cable to keep some tension on it at all times. Otherwise wire cable would soon get into a tangle if the winding reel was turning with it loose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted March 20, 2011 Share Posted March 20, 2011 derek pringle - 2011-03-20 9:27 AM Hi, I am expecting delivery anytime of a Bessacarr Fiat based motorhome any day now. How will i know if this vehicle is affected by this problem or indeed has the newer safe version of carrier?. I am obviously assuming the chassis could well have been around for some time. Any help or advice derek Sorry, not ignoring you, just don't know the answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted March 20, 2011 Share Posted March 20, 2011 Peter James - 2011-03-19 7:39 PM It concerns me that backing off the winding handle just a third of a turn releases the catch so all the weight is on the lifting cable. There is nothing about that in the drivers handbook I have. And that the spare can be wound down and stolen from outside the van. So I have just put a long bolt through the wheel and floor of the van with a nut and locking nut inside. This will easily take the weight of the wheel if the carrier fails, and the spare can no longer be removed without getting inside the van. Being a panel van its a steel floor with plywood above it, so able to cut out a small circle of plywood and the end of the bolt doesn't protrude above floor level. I can't edit that now, but wanted to add that if you overtighten the winding handle, the springiness in the cable can flip it back a bit when you release the pressure. This little anti clockwise turn might be enough to release the locking mechanism? So then all the weight would be on the lifting cable, which may have be weakened by the overtightening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
everhopeful Posted March 20, 2011 Share Posted March 20, 2011 derek pringle - 2011-03-20 9:27 AM Hi, I am expecting delivery anytime of a Bessacarr Fiat based motorhome any day now. How will i know if this vehicle is affected by this problem or indeed has the newer safe version of carrier?. I am obviously assuming the chassis could well have been around for some time. Any help or advice derek I'm half guessing that if your carrier has the arrangement as in Peters photo then you may have the later version. Perhaps euroserv could confirm the difference, but having this possibly later version seems to be no guarantee of success. If the earlier version had no latching system then it was truly a disaster waiting to happen. The version with latching system seems to be prone to jamming the wire and possibly self-releasing if the latch unwinds a third of a turn. So, whichever system you have, it seem the only sensible way forward is to fabricate some sort of support system independant from the wire. Treat the wire as a lifting mechanism only, with security and safety to your own design! If the wire is fully unwound every time and then wound in under tension it might even work reliably (only might though). Even if Fiat etc were to design and fit a new mechanism it's doubtful if they would give any consideration to preventing the theft of the wheel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derek pringle Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 thanks everhopeful, seems I need to wait and see re a diy fix. If Fiat are aware as this thread suggests then dont really feel I should have to but thats motorhoming I suppose. cheers derek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bolero boy Posted March 26, 2011 Share Posted March 26, 2011 bolero boy - 2011-03-08 10:45 PM AFAIK the Swift Bolero on Fiat X2/50 went from having a spare in 2007 (we had one) to not having a spare in 2008/9 (it was inflator gunk, we looked at one) to having one in 2010 (we have one now). I have already had experience of changing a wheel in a controlled environment at a tyre depot as we had a slow puncture. The spare was put on the van. I had the pleasure of crawling underneath and trying to use the abomination of a ratchet handle to lower the tyre. Once lowered, getting it off the end spigot is devilishly difficult as the tyre has to be supported while fiddling the spigot through the centre tyre hole. If you think this sounds tricky, I can assure you the reverse process of supporting the tyre while inserting the spigot is nigh impossible, made so much more painful by the fact that the cable dies not unwing sufficiently far enough for the attaching to take place other than under the vehicle. A dreadful piece of non design. As for the safety aspect, I have no idea if I require any change to this fitment. I had the van serviced yesterday and nothing was mentioned. Rgds, Chris ps scraped knuckles guaranteed, patience totally exhausted! Called in at local Fiat dealer to have the 'engine/gearbox bolt torquing' fix done (20 mins) and asked about the carrier while I was there. No-one seemed to be aware of any 'problem' as such but, using my chassi no, I got the parts team to check which carrier I have - it's the latest mod. This is referred to as 'mod D' as opposed to 'mod C' which is fitted to earlier chassis. Ours is a 2010 model. Chris. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted March 26, 2011 Share Posted March 26, 2011 bolero boy - 2011-03-26 11:18 AM bolero boy - 2011-03-08 10:45 PM AFAIK the Swift Bolero on Fiat X2/50 went from having a spare in 2007 (we had one) to not having a spare in 2008/9 (it was inflator gunk, we looked at one) to having one in 2010 (we have one now). I have already had experience of changing a wheel in a controlled environment at a tyre depot as we had a slow puncture. The spare was put on the van. I had the pleasure of crawling underneath and trying to use the abomination of a ratchet handle to lower the tyre. Once lowered, getting it off the end spigot is devilishly difficult as the tyre has to be supported while fiddling the spigot through the centre tyre hole. If you think this sounds tricky, I can assure you the reverse process of supporting the tyre while inserting the spigot is nigh impossible, made so much more painful by the fact that the cable dies not unwing sufficiently far enough for the attaching to take place other than under the vehicle. A dreadful piece of non design. As for the safety aspect, I have no idea if I require any change to this fitment. I had the van serviced yesterday and nothing was mentioned. Rgds, Chris ps scraped knuckles guaranteed, patience totally exhausted! Called in at local Fiat dealer to have the 'engine/gearbox bolt torquing' fix done (20 mins) and asked about the carrier while I was there. No-one seemed to be aware of any 'problem' as such but, using my chassi no, I got the parts team to check which carrier I have - it's the latest mod. This is referred to as 'mod D' as opposed to 'mod C' which is fitted to earlier chassis. Ours is a 2010 model. Chris. I slip a bit of wood or something a couple of inches high under the side of the wheel, which holds it up enough to fit the centre spigot in. Its more awkward than a car, but the easiest spare wheel carrier on a commercial that I have had. Do you know how we can tell the difference between 'Mod D' and 'Mod C' (?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bolero boy Posted March 26, 2011 Share Posted March 26, 2011 I wasn't given any particular descriptive as it was on the parts screen in a back office. A call to your Fiat dealer with the VIN would give you the answer, I'm sure. Good luck, Chris. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terryW Posted April 2, 2011 Share Posted April 2, 2011 Just had my spare wheel carrier replaced under my extended warranty (not Fiat) after it failed. The new one is totally different, for a start the attachment to the wheel has a spring that I assume keeps the mechanism under tension and prevents over tightening. The outside casing of the cables is now much greater in diameter and the gearbox/winding mechanism has been totally re-deigned. I asked Fiat for the old one but they insisted that they were required to hold it for 25 days for the warranty Co., despite it not being a Fiat warranty. At 5:30 I was unable to challenge that statement but first thing in the morning my insurers confirmed that that do not require the part and did not request it to be retained. I have now instructed Fiat to hold the part for my collection (100 miles round trip) on the 18th. If I eventually get my hands on it I will be stripping it down to see exactly how and why it failed. For some reason Fiat don't appear to want me to get my hands on it. I wonder why! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
everhopeful Posted April 2, 2011 Share Posted April 2, 2011 Good clear pictures, but I'm a bit confused. Could it be that the top pic should be 90 degrees left? That would make the wheel flat in its parked position and the tube thing would maybe be the new place to put the winding handle? I like the spring idea because it should take out the guesswork of tightening. Certainly nothing like the existing version I have, but I wonder if this is the one that would now be fitted to replace all versions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terryW Posted April 2, 2011 Share Posted April 2, 2011 everhopeful - 2011-04-02 7:27 PM Good clear pictures, but I'm a bit confused. Could it be that the top pic should be 90 degrees left? That would make the wheel flat in its parked position and the tube thing would maybe be the new place to put the winding handle? I like the spring idea because it should take out the guesswork of tightening. Certainly nothing like the existing version I have, but I wonder if this is the one that would now be fitted to replace all versions. Yes sorry 90 deg out, should have rotated it :$ The tube surrounds the point where the winding handle fits and freely rotates, I'm not sure why it does this. The other aspect is that it is fixed to a bracket that allows the angle to be adjusted for better alignment of the winding handle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
everhopeful Posted April 3, 2011 Share Posted April 3, 2011 Terry, just wondering if your old setup was the same as the one in Peter James's photo, ie the one with the stepped gismo at the end for the latching mechanism. Also, when it failed what actually happened, and were you trying it or did it show some other way? I'm in the silly position that mine appears to work now, but the warranty hasn't long to go! 8o| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terryW Posted April 3, 2011 Share Posted April 3, 2011 Yes it was as per the original photo and this one has the same arrangement with the addition of the spring. Mine worked OK when I first tried it to make sure I could change a wheel then after reading this thread I decided to lower it once more and make sure everything was properly greased. When I started to raise the wheel it lifted about 6 inches and went tight so I lowered it back down, removed the wheel and tried to raise it again. It rose without the wheel to about the same position before going tight again this time I continued and the winder started to slip. I assume that the cable jammed while not under tension and some part of the winding mechanism has stripped or sheared. If I eventually get my hands on it I will find out. I'm not sure this info will help you all I can say is try it a few times take the wheel off and wind it up and down as you would in the case of a puncture. In such cases i suspect most of us would not replace a punctured wheel until we could get it repaired and a slack cable may be the cause? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
everhopeful Posted April 4, 2011 Share Posted April 4, 2011 Thanks Terry. It seems from your experience that a slack cable is the route to a failure. As it's almost impossible to avoid a slack cable when the wheel is down, the phrase "only a matter of time" springs to mind. I doubt you used excessive force to overcome the jammed cable, so the mechanism doesn't seem overly strong. I'll be having another play with my wheel when I get chance, because I'm not happy about it hanging on the cable rather than the latching mechanism. It's optimum position and tightness is presently between clicks three and four of the ratchet, but I'd rather it rested on click four if possible. I'm guessing that this is where the new spring arrangement would supply the necessary final tension, whilst also allowing the ratchet to rest on a click point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terryW Posted April 4, 2011 Share Posted April 4, 2011 I had a call from Fiat Customer relations today and that was a waste of time. To cut a long conversation short I was advised that the person I was dealing with no longer works for Fiat and would I confirm I had my vehicle back. When I asked if the long awaited reply from the 'technical' people was available yet, I was informed that Customer relations had no way of contacting them. This is now two weeks after I was told they were being contacted. I was then advised that technical questions should be put to my local Fiat dealer. I declined, and after having expressed my views quite clearly they agreed to contact the technical people through my Fiat dealer on my behalf. I informed them I did not mind how they did it but I was not going to be passed round the world from person to person and that my question was with them and would remain with them until I receive an answer. I won't hold my breath. >:-) To be honest I never did expect to get an answer but I am not ready to let them off the hook yet. We are leaving for Spain in 6 weeks time so I will keep the pressure up that long and then let them stew while I laze in the sun for a couple of month. :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urbanracer Posted April 6, 2011 Share Posted April 6, 2011 My last van was a Sept 2007 reg like many I ws going to check how the spare wheel lift worked but never got round to it : My new van Peugeot Boxer reg late Sept 2010 has the new lift as in the above pictures. Looking at my van most of the components are date stamped May/June 2010 so it must have been a quick build and sale to me,I do know it came straight to me from Explorer Group. So this modification must have been fiited mid 2010 or a bit earlier. The new van does not judder in reverse and has all the underbonnet rain/water prevention covers and to date no recalls from Peugeot or VOSA forgot to say the scuttle is now modified with larger dia holes each end with rubber tubing leading the water away plus other rubber flaps and a extra lid over the power steering fluid bottle. : Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terryW Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 I now have a written reply to my questions concerning the safety of the Spare Wheel carrier, not that it sheds much light on the subject: The letter states 1. "I would advise that the checking of your vehicle's wheel carrier cable is not part of a service" 2. "I would stress that your vehicle has been type approved and homologated for the UK market by the ministry of Transport and, as such, had they believed this issue constituted a safety issue, the certificate would never have given" Should anyone need to refer to either of these quotes in the future then the Fiat case reference is 3201038 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I have now examined my failed carrier and can confirm that the second cable does in fact engage a mechanism to lock the fitting on the end of the cable in place when fully engaged. However what does concern me now is that the actual bracket that supports the wheel is held in place by what looks like a crimp or cold weld and should that fail for any reason the wheel will drop to the road. In my case the failure appears to have been caused by the cable looping and becoming trapped under a small lever mechanism so that when the cable was wound in it was prevented from laying correctly in the spool and subsequently split the sides of the spool and jammed completely. I have attached three pics: 2075 shows how the bracket supporting the wheel is crimped (or otherwise secured) to the component on the cable end. 2077 and 2085 show how the cable has jammed under the lever and subsequent damage. From what I have seen I would say while the wheel is simply raised and lowered to the ground the carrier is not likely to jam but if the cable is slackened off to remove the wheel or worse still retracted without the wheel then there is a good chance that the cable may become jammed. In future I certainly will be ensuring that the cable is tensioned as much as possible while it is being retracted. Perhaps this can help others avoid the £274 + 0.66 hours labour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
everhopeful Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 So what Fiat are saying is that because the vehicle is type approved the spare wheel can't fall off. The mechanism that is not checked on a service, so in many cases never checked, and which is prone to failure by something as simple as a slack cable, is quite ok. They can't admit to a safety issue without a recall of course, so their reply is probably all we can expect. It is nontheless strange that a mechanism incorporating safety backup features should have no requirement to be checked. The only way forward then is for us to check our own mechanism, fully unwinding the cable then winding in under tension. Hopefully if we hear the clicks when nearly in position it means that the wheel is secure, unless the flimsy looking joint that Keith shows in the first pic gives way! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 terryW - 2011-04-27 8:29 PM From what I have seen I would say while the wheel is simply raised and lowered to the ground the carrier is not likely to jam but if the cable is slackened off to remove the wheel or worse still retracted without the wheel then there is a good chance that the cable may become jammed.In future I certainly will be ensuring that the cable is tensioned as much as possible while it is being retracted. Perhaps this can help others avoid the £274 + 0.66 hours labour (Just had a month in Cornwall so have just picked up this thread again and perhaps you are now away in Spain.) Thanks for keeping us updated. I have had a look under a few new X2/50 vans at a dealership and they all have the new type of spare wheel carrier. But I guess that still needs the cable to be kept under tension when winding in and out, to keep it on its winding reel and prevent it snagging and jamming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terryW Posted May 21, 2011 Share Posted May 21, 2011 Hi Pete, welcome back from Cornwall. Not quite gone yet but will be heading for Dover at first light complete with spare wheel, hope I don't need it. Still, I could take a second spare, loaded the van with just about everything we could possibly need for an extended stay, including drive away awning, two bikes, full tank of diesel, 100 Ltrs of water, and still 40 Kgs under gross weight. Must have forgoten something! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terryW Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 terryW - 2011-04-27 8:29 PMI now have a written reply to my questions concerning the safety of the Spare Wheel carrier, not that it sheds much light on the subject: The letter states 1. "I would advise that the checking of your vehicle's wheel carrier cable is not part of a service" 2. "I would stress that your vehicle has been type approved and homologated for the UK market by the ministry of Transport and, as such, had they believed this issue constituted a safety issue, the certificate would never have given" Should anyone need to refer to either of these quotes in the future then the Fiat case reference is 3201038 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I have now examined my failed carrier and can confirm that the second cable does in fact engage a mechanism to lock the fitting on the end of the cable in place when fully engaged. However what does concern me now is that the actual bracket that supports the wheel is held in place by what looks like a crimp or cold weld and should that fail for any reason the wheel will drop to the road. In my case the failure appears to have been caused by the cable looping and becoming trapped under a small lever mechanism so that when the cable was wound in it was prevented from laying correctly in the spool and subsequently split the sides of the spool and jammed completely. I have attached three pics: 2075 shows how the bracket supporting the wheel is crimped (or otherwise secured) to the component on the cable end. 2077 and 2085 show how the cable has jammed under the lever and subsequent damage. From what I have seen I would say while the wheel is simply raised and lowered to the ground the carrier is not likely to jam but if the cable is slackened off to remove the wheel or worse still retracted without the wheel then there is a good chance that the cable may become jammed. In future I certainly will be ensuring that the cable is tensioned as much as possible while it is being retracted. Perhaps this can help others avoid the £274 + 0.66 hours labour.After all that "stone walling" from FIAT and having to replace my carrier under an insurance based warranty policy and then being told by my local Fiat that my vehicle wasn't fitted with a spare wheel carrier when it left the factory, I now have a recall !!!!!!!!!! Fat lot of good now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hopesy Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 Took the van to the local peugeot dealer for the warranty work to be carried out. Dropped the van off then had a call about half an hour later, they need to order replacement parts for my van as the mechanism needs replacing, the others they've had in they've repaired not replaced. So got to revisit in a few days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 Just had the spare wheel carrier on my X2/50 Maxi van replaced under the free recall. The new carrier is interesting. The lifting cable does not wind on to a drum, which was Terry's problem when it snagged as the drum was unwinding and pushing the cable out. This cable goes half way around the winding wheel then is pushed out into a cable sheath. The cable is tightly wrapped around with a spiral wire so the winding mechanism can get a grip on it, in the absence of the winding drum. The part supporting the wheel is pulled over a hook, so that when the wheel is fully raised raised the cable is not taking the full weight of the wheel, just holding it on the hook to stop it sliding off. As the raised position of the wheel is determined by the fixed position of the hook, the wheel is supported on a spring to hold it tightly against the underbody. I was surprised to discover the bolt which is intended to go through the spare wheel and secure the centre section is too large a diameter to go through the correct hole in the spare wheel. It was put through a wheelbolt hole instead, which meant it was not central, and therefore only the said bolt stops it pulling through centre of the spare wheel and letting it go.. To make matters worse the bolt thread was so clogged with paint the nut had only been wound on about two turns, so didn't look very secure. I have wire brushed the bolt thread so at least the nut can go all the way on, and reinstalled the bolt I had to secure the wheel from theft (and falling off if the carrier does let go of it) The second photo shows the hole I drilled for the bolt I put through the floor as security for the spare wheel (surrounded by a squirt of white paint), and the bolt itself. The hole is drilled in the bottom of a channel so as to keep the (nylock locking) nut below van floor level, I have also cut a hole out of the plywood floor to accommodate the end of the locking nut and bolt below van floor level. The bolt I used is the type used in wire fencing with one end bent into a ring, as this is easier to get hold of when working under the van. It cannot be removed without access to the inside of the van to stop the locking nut from turning when you try to unscrew the bolt from underneath The pictures also show, held against the chassis box section and covered by a rubber cap, the end of the cable sheath the cable inner is pushed into when the wheel is wound up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Part Time Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 Mine failed in mid 2010 when I had to change a wheel. Dealer said it was not an item covered by 3rd year warranty but try calling Fiat. Did so and got a response on the same day with full agreement to replace at no charge. Parts delivered and job done inside 10 days. On the occasions I have needed Fiat intervention I have found them to be pretty efficient which has been a pleasant contrast to many suppliers. Reading this forum I seem to be in a minority or maybe just lucky but I can't fault the service I have had. I hope I don't speak too soon! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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