terryW Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 Interesting Peter, the mechanism you illustrate is nothing like the one that was supplied and fitted by Fiat under my insurance policy. My replacement is still an enclosed gearbox, though very different to the original. I have decided to bank my recall and use it if mine failes again in the future. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 Well they kept my original at the Citroen Dealer where it was fitted. Although a Citroen its got a Fiat Ducato X250 label on the back of the winder of the new carrier (photo) I have just put the spare wheel back on. You may be able to see from the photo that because the securing bolt is too big a diameter to fit through the proper hole, it will only fit through a wheelbolt hole. The result of this is that it will not centralise, and all the weight is being taken on one side, with just the bolt stopping the centre pulling through the wheel, (as its designed to do when you remove the wheel from the carrier) I tried to enlarge the accessory hole slightly with a drill, but the wheel is heat treated so it will not drill. If I hadn't put my own bolt through the wheel and up through the floor I would still be concerned about the spare wheel falling off, because it obviously isn't designed to fit like that. Its bending the central section of the carrier sideways, instead of pulling straight down on it as it is designed to do. I used a couple of caps from aerosol cans to fit in the hole in the plywood floor of the van. One is clear with the piece of lino cut out by the holesaw fitted inside so it matches the floor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 Someone somewhere at Fiat or Proma srl has screwed up. Possibly the manufacturing or the designer who is probably the engineer Pino Giorgio at Proma. The bell should fit the wheel and looks like the bell is probably for a different wheel all together, possibly the 15 inch wheel and not 16 inch. I would need to check hub sizes. I would go back to Fiat dealer and ask them to check they fitted the right part. I assure you the bell should fit the wheel center hole without pulling through it. I also fail to see how there is any positive locking of the bell lift and the bracket but maybe the pictures to not show how this is achieved. I have me doubts you have the right parts, and defintely do not have the right bell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 Does not look you have quite the same kit of parts as you should have for the part number. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 Brambles - 2011-12-01 2:11 PM I also fail to see how there is any positive locking of the bell lift and the bracket but maybe the pictures to not show how this is achieved.. If you seee a photo of it in the raised position you can't really see whats happened either. If you look at the first picture I posted on this page, (titled 'new spare wheel carrier X250') the lifting cable is fitted to the middle of a swivelling axle. When it reaches the top, the axle swivels so that the lifting pulls it sideways over the flat bit sticking out. This flat bit sticking out takes the weight, with the lifting cable just stopping it from sliding sideways back off. Since the spare wheel is supported on a spring at the bottom of the bell, this compensates for different thicknesses of tyre, so that, in theory, the wheel is held against the underbody under spring pressure. I think the bell might fit the wheel if the bolt would go through the right hole, but the hole isn't wide enough, It will only go through a wheelbolt hole, which is further out from the centre, so the bell doesn't centralise in the wheel. The bell is actually an oblong shape, so that it can be tilted and pulled through the wheel when you take the wheel off. If it was central in the wheel it wouldn't pull through like it is doing, because it wouldn't be able to tilt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 Brambles - 2011-12-01 2:40 PM Does not look you have quite the same kit of parts as you should have for the part number. Thanks for the photo. Yes that looks like what I have got, but the crucial bit is the bell that fits the centre of the spare wheel, in particular the diameter of the bolt that is welded to said bell, so we could not see that level of detail in a photograph. I think the only way you can tell whether the bell will fit the wheel properly is to have them both there, and physically try to fit them together, as I have done. If the bolt wasn't welded to the bell (its about 2.5mm long and 11mm diameter) I could try a slightly smaller diameter bolt, so it would fit through the right hole instead of the wheelbolt hole (which is too far out from the centre of the wheel), then I think it would all fit together as intended. But there is no way the bolt will go through any other hole but a wheelbolt hole. I spent over an hour trying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 If you look at these 2 photos, you see I have had to put the bolt through the wheelbolt hole, instead of the other hole which I think is the one it is supposed to fit. But the diameter of the hole is about 1mm too small. You can perhaps see where I have tried to enlarge the hole with a drill, but since the wheel appears to be heat treated, the HSS drill bit barely chamfered the hole before it got red hot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 This one shows how the bell is pulled partway through the wheel because it isn't central. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bolero boy Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 I had mine replaced on monday but, due to us being away till this afternoon, havent had time to get underneath and poke around! However, I think Jon (Brambles) may have a point about the wheel size and it's possible relationship to the bell support module in that I was asked my wheel/tyre size when I booke in. This was the first and only question I was asked so it must be relevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 Thanks, I understand how the assembly hooks over the ledge in the bracket, just could not see how it locks positively without the cable holding it in position, so presumably there is a locking mechanisn of some kind in the winder box so cable cannot extend and the round bar fall off the bracket so cable takes the full weight again. Anyway, the point is the bell is clearly the wrong one. If you also look at the kit pictiure I showed, you can see a bar extending each side of the bracket just above the bell. I assume this rests up against the 'wire' loop shaped guide, or at least stops the asssembly going higher than this point. possibly if no wheel is fitted and assmebly is wount up, it stops it swinging about too much. There is a large long bracket which should be mounted to suport the tyre in position, this locates the wheel/tyre better but is not shown in the photos of your vehicle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 Brambles - 2011-12-01 4:27 PM If you also look at the kit pictiure I showed, you can see a bar extending each side of the bracket just above the bell. Well spotted. Youre right I haven't got that, just holes where it should be. I hadn't seen that was missing. I think I'll have to take it back to http://www.advantagelincoln.citroen.co.uk/ where I had it fitted I do seem to have the other bits in your photo though, just that they are not all shown in mine. I don't know if there is any locking mechanism in the winding gear when the wheel is raised. It is high geared though, not much rotation to raise the wheel, so it perhaps it wouldn't wind itself down easily. Then again the more I see of these things the more glad I am that I have put a bolt through the wheel to make sure it doesn't fall off! Thanks Again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 bolero boy - 2011-12-01 3:47 PM I had mine replaced on monday but, due to us being away till this afternoon, havent had time to get underneath and poke around! However, I think Jon (Brambles) may have a point about the wheel size and it's possible relationship to the bell support module in that I was asked my wheel/tyre size when I booke in. This was the first and only question I was asked so it must be relevant. Well I wasn't asked about wheel size, but I had to take it in for inspection before the parts were ordered, then back again a couple of weeks later to be fitted. So I would have hoped they would note the wheel size as part of the the inspection, if they hadn't already got it from my vehicle number. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ham Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 I have had the fix down on my Panel van. One safety issue cleared up but another major one created.. The connection to the cable is behind my rear drivers wheek situated between the wheel arch and the wheel. So if i now have to change the wheel whilst out on the road in the UK, I am at risk of being run down by any traffic that is passing.The original winding point was at the rear of the van.They really thought this one out....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 ham - 2011-12-01 5:37 PM I have had the fix down on my Panel van. One safety issue cleared up but another major one created.. The connection to the cable is behind my rear drivers wheek situated between the wheel arch and the wheel. So if i now have to change the wheel whilst out on the road in the UK, I am at risk of being run down by any traffic that is passing.The original winding point was at the rear of the van.They really thought this one out....... I guess Right Hand Drive is a small part of their market. And they need something they can fit retrospectively to van conversions that may no longer have space at the rear to fit anything larger than the old failed system. (like a tow bar bracket or tank in the way) With this thing they have they can be a bit flexible about where they mount it. You would have to lay down and get underneath to get the wheel off my carrier, so as you are going to get down there anyway you might as well wind it down from underneath. But if you are prepared to work on the offside to change a wheel, why wouldn't you be prepared to work on the offside to wind it down.? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike88 Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 I discussed this issue with my local Fiat dealer yesterday when my van was in for something else. He has had 8 vans in this week for this work to be done. I haven't received the recall notice yet but the dealer told me that before ordering the parts they need to confirm with owners the size of the wheel and whether the spare was steel or alloy. So if the Fiat dealer hasn't asked owners to confirm wheel type and size then it is possible some may have had the incorrect part fitted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 In light of what has been mentioned about dealer needing wheel size and more than one kit, there is indeed two kits. The one Peter James has fitted is 1363360080 which is for the X250 lighter vehicles so presumably are those with 15 inch wheels. kit No, 1363361080 is for X250 heavy vehicles which presumably is for 16 inch wheels. Q17 and Q20 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 Yup! manage to check it out and confirm. The kit you have Peter, is for a 15 inch wheel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 Brambles - 2011-12-01 7:56 PM In light of what has been mentioned about dealer needing wheel size and more than one kit, there is indeed two kits. The one Peter James has fitted is 1363360080 which is for the X250 lighter vehicles so presumably are those with 15 inch wheels. kit No, 1363361080 is for X250 heavy vehicles which presumably is for 16 inch wheels. Q17 and Q20 Many Thanks Brambles. Yes I do have the 16" wheels (Citroen Relay L4H2 Heavy - Manufactured April 2008) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ChrisB Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 Peter James - 2011-12-01 1:46 PM ..... I have just put the spare wheel back on. You may be able to see from the photo that because the securing bolt is too big a diameter to fit through the proper hole, it will only fit through a wheelbolt hole. The result of this is that it will not centralise, and all the weight is being taken on one side, with just the bolt stopping the centre pulling through the wheel, (as its designed to do when you remove the wheel from the carrier) ...... . Just a thought... Before my X250 went in for the spare wheel carrier replacement the service manager called asking for details of wheel size and type (steel or alloy) as he wanted to make sure he had the correct parts. I took this to mean there were different versions for different size and types of wheel. If so perhaps the incorrect version fitted for your spare? I have no way of checking if there are several different versions available - just going on the information requested by the service manager. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 ChrisB - 2011-12-02 10:50 AM Just a thought... Before my X250 went in for the spare wheel carrier replacement the service manager called asking for details of wheel size and type (steel or alloy) as he wanted to make sure he had the correct parts. I took this to mean there were different versions for different size and types of wheel. If so perhaps the incorrect version fitted for your spare? I have no way of checking if there are several different versions available - just going on the information requested by the service manager. Read my posts above. There IS more than one version available depending on wheel size. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 Well I've been back to Citroen Lincoln again today, armed with Brambles part numbers. They admitted they have fitted the wrong carrier, and ordered another. Thanks again Brambles :-D Incidentally, they said the reason for their mistake was that the carrier they have wrongly fitted to my 16" wheel X2/50 Panel Van, is listed for the 16" wheeled X2/50 Chassis Cab. They said their parts catalouge has some abbreviation for 'Panel Van' and 'Chasis Cab' that wasn't appreciated at the time. The obvious suggestion is that X2/50 Panel Vans and Chasis cabs have different 16" wheels. I don't know how this affects coachbuilts that are built on chassis cabs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhorsf Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 I would think it only matters about size not steel or alloys although I was asked both questions,I have alloys and a steel spare? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 Just checked. there are only two wheel types 15 inch and 16 inch. So no 16 inch with smaller hole. However there is a Q17 light and a Q17 heavy. The Q17light uses 15 inch wheels. There are other wheels but they are for anry vehicles an are green. Looking through the history of the brackets, it looks like the original one forgot to allow for alloy wheels being carried should a puncture occur and they are swapped over. Steel spare for punctured alloy. So they appeared to have fixed this with a longer retaining shaft and the groove on to allow for different thickness of wheel, and stud must pick up mounting hole not guide pin hole as alloy does not habe guide hole right through. Then they added a spring and revised again. Finally to revise because they broke and is subject to recall. So here we are, on what is it, the fourth design. I have access to the Fiat database, and also have copies of the patents for all the earlier brackets. Gosh I have an unhealthy interest in this...time to close the door and enjoy the weekend. Gosh that Pino chap has made a few mistakes in the design. ( sorry Pino if you read this..just 'winding' you up. :-D ) edit - corrected some really bad typos. Long week and been working hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted December 3, 2011 Share Posted December 3, 2011 Thanks Again Brambles. This spare wheel and carrier malarkey must have cost Sevel some bother and money. No wonder they have given up on supplying spare wheels and carriers as standard, just supplying a pump and can of gunk instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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