niktam Posted January 1, 2021 Share Posted January 1, 2021 I knew there were issues with weights on certain MH's well before I made my decision to join the MH gravy train however, I was wondering if anyone has experience of any cost implications when insuring an upgraded van with say:- 225 tyres instead of 215 both R15's Rear Air Assist suspension. I'm happy with the pros and cons of the upgrade to C1 but I know with us two and four teenagers this will put us well over and I'm looking at whether it is worth the hassle or do we just take another car when needed. Saving £100 on road tax isn't going to go far! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rayc Posted January 1, 2021 Share Posted January 1, 2021 When I uprated to 3850kg via SvTech with rear air assist and 16" wheels my insurer [Comfort] did not require any additional premium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 1, 2021 Share Posted January 1, 2021 Nicholas The load index of the (presumably) 215/70 R15CP tyres fitted to your Autoquest motorhome will be 109 (1030kg) equating to a maximum axle-load limit of 2060kg (2 x 1030). The load index of a 225/70 R15CP tyre (and I think only Michelin markets a ‘camping-car’ tyre in that size) will be 112 (1120kg) equating to a maximum axle loading of 2240kg (2 x 1120). And even if you chose not to fit 'camping-car’ tyres (ie not fit “CP"-marked tyres) no “C”-marked ‘white van' tyre will have a load index higher than 112. The maximum permissible axle load for the rear axle of your motorhome’s Peugeot Boxer chassis will currently be 2000kg (1800kg for the front axle), but even if you fitted 225/70 R15 size tyres to the rear axle, that doesn’t automatically mean that you could exploit the extra 180kg (2240kg - 2060kg) that the wider tyre would offer unless the rear axle’s load-maximum were increased accordingly. I’m assuming that the idea is to fit wider tyres to the rear axle, add air-assist to the rear suspension and increase the vehicle’s GVW (Gross Vehicle Weight) to 3800kg-3850kg, as that’s the usual approaqch when SVTech gets involved with weigt upgrades on Boxer/Ducato X250/X290 ‘light’ chassis, but you’ll need to be cautious about the rear axle-load as the Autoquest 196 is quite long (7.34 metres) and this type of coachbuilt design tends to be tail-heavy. Realistically, with this size/design of motorhome and plans to carry two adults and four teenagers, the ‘heavy’ (Maxi) chassis would have been the better choice to build on, but Elddis does not offer that option. I doubt if your insurance provider would be concerned about the minor tyre-width increase (especially if you were to stick with ‘camping-car’ tyres) nor about the addition of air-assist (mentioned here) https://www.caravanguard.co.uk/news/motorhome-modifications-6371/ And if the increased GVW were to be (say) no higher than 3850kg, I doubt that would bother a provider either. But some insurance providers are much pickier than others, so ask yours about this before spending money on the upgrade. Presumably you’ve had your Autoquest weighed in full ‘touring trim’ with all the passengers on board, plus their baggage and with the fuel tank well-filled and the watertank filled to whatever level you normally fill to? There’s no point going down the weight upgrade road if it’s not going to allow you to operate the motorhome legally when you are on holiday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted January 1, 2021 Share Posted January 1, 2021 Derek Uzzell - 2021-01-01 6:04 PM And even if you chose not to fit 'camping-car’ tyres (ie not fit “CP"-marked tyres) no “C”-marked ‘white van' tyre will have a load index higher than 112. Derek, I have to stop you here and point out that Continental C spec tyres in size 225/70 R 15 C are what are classed as dual rated tyres and carry the following Load Index 112/110R (115N). This means they can be operated up to a LI of 115 (ie 1,215 kg per tyre) at a MAXIMUM speed of 'N' rating (ie 87 mph) which IMO is more than adequate for a MH. SV Tech actually suggested doing this with my Sprinter based AT if I wanted to increase GVW from 3,800 kg to 4,000 kg. Just to add I do have Dunlop Auxiliary Air on the rear suspension and fitment has not affected my insurance premiums. Keith. Edit to add tyre data is from page 86 here... http://blobs.continental-tires.com/www8/servlet/blob/85806/69977261017e17f2a1dc8054655a4bcf/download-technical-databook-data.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webby1 Posted January 2, 2021 Share Posted January 2, 2021 niktam - 2021-01-01 4:11 PM I knew there were issues with weights on certain MH's well before I made my decision to join the MH gravy train however, I was wondering if anyone has experience of any cost implications when insuring an upgraded van with say:- 225 tyres instead of 215 both R15's Rear Air Assist suspension. I'm happy with the pros and cons of the upgrade to C1 but I know with us two and four teenagers this will put us well over and I'm looking at whether it is worth the hassle or do we just take another car when needed. Saving £100 on road tax isn't going to go far! This is what we did to upplate with Svtech.You will need a lot more payload for 6 people. If you have the option I think taking a car as and when needed would be easier.Having said that we easily use 3850 just for the 2 of us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 2, 2021 Share Posted January 2, 2021 niktam - 2021-01-01 4:11 PM I knew there were issues with weights on certain MH's well before I made my decision to join the MH gravy train however, I was wondering if anyone has experience of any cost implications when insuring an upgraded van with say:- 225 tyres instead of 215 both R15's Rear Air Assist suspension. I'm happy with the pros and cons of the upgrade to C1 but I know with us two and four teenagers this will put us well over and I'm looking at whether it is worth the hassle or do we just take another car when needed. Saving £100 on road tax isn't going to go far! It would be wise to look beyond the weights themselves, and consider how those weights would be distributed within your van. I'm sure you are right to assume that travelling with six on board will result in overload. What you really need to know is by how much, and where the load will fall. I note Elddis state that their load data assumes the water tanks will be empty when driving, dictating a need to fill with water on arrival before any on board facilities can be used. The brochures are "silent" on water tank, and gas locker, capacities, plus unladen weight or unladen axle loads, so the basis for calculating the true available weight limits is absent. I think your best bet, before you spend any time or money seeking to uprate the MAM will be to do two things. First, take the van empty (i.e. with only the basic jack and toolkit on board), but with a brim full fuel tank, to a weighbridge and obtain the actual axle weights in that condition (don't forget to get out of the van yourself, and stand clear of the platform, while obtaining this. By adding the two together or, if directed by the weighbridge operator, park the van centrally and then run either front axle or rear axle off the platform and weigh that (the result for the second axle will be the first weight minus the second weight. You will than have an actual vehicle weight plus the actual loads on each axle. Then compare these weights with the maxima stated in the Elddis manual. Second, just using the bathroom scales, weigh and note (a spreadsheet will be useful) everything you would expect to add to the van when in use - including all of your family - total these, and add them to the sum of the two axle loads, and see what the result is. For this, you really need to include absolutely everything you would normally expect to take including camping equipment, food, drinks, pets, clothing, bedding, toys and games, without exception. You will then know by how much your van exceeds its permissible weight The (perhaps) simpler, and definitely more accurate, alternative, is to install all those items, including gas cylinder/s into the van as though loading for a trip (including yourself and all passengers, and again visit the weighbridge (if uneasy about overload transport everyone else in the car) and repeat as above, but with driver an all passengers on board. This is to establish the maximum probable laden weight of the van, plus the actual laden loads on each axle. You will then discover the extent to which the van itself, and its axles, will be overloaded when fully laden. (Don't forget you'll also need a margin to allow for growth of the teenagers!) Reason? Your van is 7.3 metres long, and has a published payload in standard (3.5 tonne) form, with no extras added, of 568kg. This is absolutely minimal for a 6 berth motorhome with six belted travel seats. For comparison, our van is a converted 6.0 metre long Fiat Ducato panel van. When emptied, as above, it weighs in at 2,900kg (although it does have a 120litre fuel tank) F/A 1,600kg R/A 1,300kg. When fully laden for a trip (including 100 litres of fresh water) this becomes 3,420kg F/A 1,760kg, R/A 1,826kg, and there are only two of us on board! Beyond that, it has virtually zero rear overhang, so almost all the added load falls between the two axles, whereas your van will have (I'm assuming) the same wheelbase and front overhang, meaning that the extra length converts to rear overhang with it's consequent multiplication of rear axle load. I should perhaps add that ours is on the "maxi" chassis, which gives permissible axle loads of: front 2,100kg, and rear 2,400kg, against the stated Peugeot 3.5 tonne limits of front 1,850 and rear 2,000kg. Unless you do this, I fear you risk wasting money on up-plating and the attendant rear axle uplift, only to find that the rear axle still limits who/what you can actually carry to less than what is workable for you as a family. So, without in any way wishing to rain on your parade, proceed with great care! :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 2, 2021 Share Posted January 2, 2021 Brian Kirby - 2021-01-02 12:21 PM niktam - 2021-01-01 4:11 PM I knew there were issues with weights on certain MH's well before I made my decision to join the MH gravy train however, I was wondering if anyone has experience of any cost implications when insuring an upgraded van with say:- 225 tyres instead of 215 both R15's Rear Air Assist suspension. I'm happy with the pros and cons of the upgrade to C1 but I know with us two and four teenagers this will put us well over and I'm looking at whether it is worth the hassle or do we just take another car when needed. Saving £100 on road tax isn't going to go far! It would be wise to look beyond the weights themselves, and consider how those weights would be distributed within your van. I'm sure you are right to assume that travelling with six on board will result in overload. What you really need to know is by how much, and where the load will fall. I note Elddis state that their load data assumes the water tanks will be empty when driving, dictating a need to fill with water on arrival before any on board facilities can be used. The brochures are "silent" on water tank, and gas locker, capacities, plus unladen weight or unladen axle loads, so the basis for calculating the true available weight limits is absent... For the Autoquest 196 model Elddis currently quotes a Mass In Running Order (MIRO) of 2932kg, which tallies with this 2017 MMM review. https://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/motorhomes/buyers-guide/motorhomes/details/motorhome-review-elddis-autoquest-196/133926 This model has a 100-litre fresh water tank and a 70-litre waste tank (both underslung). Gas locker capacity is given as 2 x 7kg. As is the norm for motorhomes, no data are provided for MIRO axle loads. In principle (and ignoring the insurance implications) upping the tyre-width slightly and adding air-assist to allow a not-too-large weight-maximum increase should not be technically problematical or produce any peculiar on-the road behaviour, but it might be worth browsing through these earlier forum discussions. https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Oversteer/48778/?DisplayType=nested&setcookie=1&go=Go https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Semi-Air-Suspension/52800/ Regarding replacing Nicholas’s Autoquest’s tyres with “C”-marked (white van) tyres, these would have a lower maximum inflation pressure than the that of the original “CP”-marked (camping-car) tyres - and the lower pressure could well trigger alerts on the motorhome’s TPMS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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