Alanb
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Posts posted by Alanb
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4 hours ago, Alanb said:
Hi Andy.
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As B2 can be charged with the DSxxx switched off, I do not think that even its 16 way connector is pertinant.
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Alan
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I meant to say "......PCxxx switched off", as that is where the on/off switch is located.
Alan
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Hi Andy.
I am not happy about your voltage readings of just 13.0V, which is insufficient.
Can you check your multimeter on another vehicle battery? You should see up to 14.4V with engine running.
With meter checked, I suggest pulling the main B1 fuse for the DS300, and then checking charging voltage directly across the starter battery. This will check as to how well the alternator is working.
For the present problem, the only connections of importance are those at the three M6 studs, and of course the blue wire connecton (The white wire is the "mains on" signal from the charger. This signal initiates a low rate charge to the starter battery.) As B2 can be charged with the DSxxx switched off, I do not think that even its 16 way connector is pertinant.
The three main battery connections do not show any signs of corrosion, but how is B2 negative linked to B1 negative? It could be either by a direct cable, or via a chassis connection. Either would be part of the charging path, and the return for the simulated D+ signal. I think that this connection(s), should be checked. Continuing my thoughts, is there an absorbtion fridge, and is it selected to 12V? The 12V element takes in excess of 13A, and could cause significant voltage drop across a poor quality earh connection.
Alan
Edit to add: The fridge 12 element is supplied via pins 2 & 3 of the 6 way whie connector.
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Do not tug at the split charge relay, which you have correctly identified, as it is soldered to the board.
CBE DS300 does not use conventional D+ to operate the split charge relay. Instead it takes an ignition switched supply, and monitors it electronically for about 13.3V, (alternator charging), after a short time delay one of the two orange coloured relays (upper left in photo) is operated. This I believe, uses the ignition switched supply to operate the split charge relay. I also believe that the supply is also extended via RH 3A fuse for other purposes at blade terminal FA4. The fridge relay is also operated in parallel with the split charge relay. This is the relay between FA2 and FA3, which are bridge out the relay when a compreeor fridge is fitted.
More importantly, the ignition switched supply connects to the board via the blue wire close to the B2 marking. I suggest checking that you have a steady voltage >13.3V at the blue wire input to the board.
You have mentioned one main fuse but there should be two, one for the starter battery (B1), and one for B2. They should both be close to the respective batteries.
Alan
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As a temporary measure, if the original elbow will fit snuggly into the slot, perhaps you could seal the elbow with Blue-tack, or similar.
Alan
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@peterjl Just a thought as I retire for the night. Is the vehicle fitted with a smart alternator? If yes, then it would help to explain some of the low battery readings.
Did not see any mention when scanning thread, but I may have overlooked it.
Alan
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4 hours ago, peterjl said:
AN UPDATE AND MORE QUESTIONS.
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Took Moho for 50 mile run on motorway yesterday and two hours after returning checked voltage as 12.47 v HOWEVER I have been checking voltage across the jump stat points under the bonnet so I didn’t have to lift carpet.
this afternoon I did same and voltage dropped to 12.32v however I then decided to look at battery to measure size and checked voltage which was lower at 12.23v
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I consulted the handbook and note that whilst the charger only charges leisure battery it also provides a FLOAT
l next measured battery in case I have to change and it seems to be about 390mm long by 270mm wide. I can’t get a height as not enough space. Do these sizes influence battery I can get?
Lastly the battery seems to be AGM as the writing on top says suitable for start/ stop even though my Moho doesn’t have 5hat. Do I have to replace like with like?
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Sorry to be a pain guys but I am well out of my comfort zone here so I am trying to gather info and Google has me more confused than when I started!
peter
Hi Peter,
I have quoted only part of your post above, and made some minor corrections, which I trust will be OK with you.
After a 50 mile run, I would have expected more than your quoted readings of around 12.3V, as this voltage would represent a partially discharged battery.
You mention that the onboard charger provides a trickle charge to the starter battery. The popular CBE , and Schaudt Electroblok provide this feature, and there probably are others.
I assume that the 278mm wider was a typo, 178 mm is typical. The 390 mm length suggests a "020" physical battery size.
There is a procedure for disconnecting the starter battery on an x250. Consult driver's handbook, for precise details.
For safety, always disconnect the negative first, and reconnect last. Weight anof 020 size battery will be around 27kg.
Take heart, those whom I consider a pain are generally those who are unwilling to learn. Do be aware of your limits, but nothing ventured, nothing won.
What can cause confusion on a forum, is too many different pieces of advice, possibly suggesting different courses of action.
Alan
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1 hour ago, onecal said:
Hi
Hopefully he will pick this up on checking his wiring loom in the engine bay and all connections to the fuse box Also as in the diagram supplied by Alanb there is a junction fuse box J002 that needs to be checked carefully at the rear for damage as do B009, B001,H001as Labby states for good connections on both sides of all fuses Again you say you have connections off your battery but nothing within your engine bay Why not replace with a new battery and connections and start from there ? Please do not start at any wiring if you are not competent, get a professional to check it out for you The wiring schematic Alanb has provided is easy to follow and if you are having difficulty following as you say , this is why I recommend you have it checked professionally especially as you are unable to see a blown fuse or damaged or corroded wiring (or loose connections)
Regards
The statement above "Also as in the diagram supplied by Alanb there is a junction fuse box J002" is incorrect. The prefix "J" is used on eLearn wiring diagrams to denote a separately mounted relay. There is a box denoted B002 on the diagram. This is the cab fusebox on an x250, and plays no part in the engine starter motor operation.
I do agree with the need to check the earths, both the main battery earth C003 at top LHS of the diagram (located in battery box), and the particularly since in view of the age of the vehicle, the engine block earth strap. @euroserv, who was a fleet owner, has previously suggest changing these straps every four years. I have to rely on the diagram, but this strap between engine block / gearbox assembly is represented by C002 to C003 on the diagram, again top left. It carries starting and charging currents.
1 hour ago, Labby said:The power supply to the starter motor from the battery is through the 500amp maxi fuse which is the large fuse on the positive battery terminal connection plate having the main large positive starter cable attached to it , the connections there on each side of the fuse may need to be checked , Along with the actual battery positive terminal post connection.
To be correct and avoid confusion the 500A fuse protection the starter motor is a "CAL" fuse which can carry large currents for normal cranking time. A Maxi fuse is a large blade fuse as may be found in the engine bay fusebox, B001.
Alan
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2 hours ago, Sambol said:
Yes the B2 battery was removed while the install was completed. Probably took me a few weeks to get around to installing the new batteries.
Thanks for the reply. A disconnection seems to be less of a problem than, a slow drop in voltage as a battery gradually discharges. I cannot see why a discharged capacitor should inhibit start up. What about that apparently loose wire that I mentioned?
Alan
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I agree with Labby. Check connections, and that your jump start pack is charged.
Are both the battery, and engine block earth straps in good condition?
Attached is a jpg version of the Fiat eLearn diagram E5010 applicable to x250 starting and charging. If you are happy with diagrams OK, otherwise we should be able to guide you through the necessary parts, should the need arise.
Alan
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1 hour ago, peterjl said:
Hi. Went to take Moho out yesterday and it barely turned over and didn’t start , now I am not an engineer and knowledge is not strong so after consulting Google I…..
checked voltage across battery = 11.7
charged at 8amps ( it’s an 8am charger) starting at 1 pm and it showed full charged 9 hrs later
this morning checked voltage = 12.68. ; took for a 12 mile drive, about 30 minutes given traffic jam, and checked again 12.48. Two hours later ran lights for a couple of minutes without starting then voltage 12.28. Then started engine and checked whilst engine running = 13.95.: after engine switched off voltage = 12.6
Not sure if all this means battery is ok or I have a problem. Any guidance, thoughts very welcome.
FYI Moho is 2021 Fiat ducato 2.3 ( possl Roadstar 600 L )
Peter
Hi Peter,
11.80V is generally accepted as a fully discharged battery.
Your charger has a maximum rating of 8A, but the actual charge current will reduce as the battery voltage rises.
I would expect your starter battery to have a capacity of about 95Ah (Ampere hours). Also battery is not 100% efficient and some energy will be released as heat. So to fully charge your battery you would have to charge it for well in excess of 12 hours.
A 30 minute run will replace the energy used when starting, but will not add significant charge to the battery. With a basic alternator, the end voltage could be as high as 14.4V when the engine is still running. If your vehicle has a smart alternator then voltage could be less, as capacity is left to absorb energy when slowing down. I do not have any practical experience concerning smart alternators, but @John52 has a smart alternator and monitors its output.
I note that Ninian has suggested 12.6V / 12.7V represents a charged battery, but that should be after the battery has stood off charge for 24 hours.
Why was your battery flat? If it has stood idle for two or three weeks, that could be the cause. There is usually a small parasitic drain on modern vehicles, add an alarm, and the battery could be flat in the that time.
Alan
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2 hours ago, Sambol said:
So... Basically I need to buy a new control panel and just hope that fixes it? Dammit.
Please be careful when handling the PCB. Observe static precautions. If possible earth (ground) yourself to battery -ve, or chassis.
Unfortunately possibly yes. It looks like C17 at the lower edge of the PCB could be a high value backup capacitor.
One thing that I notice is that there seems to be a loose wire at the RH end of the 16 way connector. This seems wrong, as I would expect the 16 way cable with connectors to be a standard piece of kit with all cores connected.
Before purchasing a new unit with no guarantee of success, would it be possible to find a repairer in Oz?
Is there any history of the B2 battery going flat, prior to your lithium install? The few failures that I have read about seem to involve a B2 becoming flat.
On the technical side, I notice that there are positions on the PCB for additional push button switches, coupled perhaps with a different physical arrangement. From a function list of the cores in the 16 way cable, I believe that two extra switches are possible for customised models.
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4 hours ago, Derek Uzzell said:
It would help to know the make, model and age of SandraH's motorhome.
Some details of the CBE PC380-ST system are here
https://pitstopcamper.com/gb/cbe/14888-cbe-pc380-st-complete-system.html
and there's a User Manual here
https://www.manualslib.com/manual/2926005/Cbe-Pc380-St.html?page=26#manual
I don't know if the "ST" suffix of the PC380-ST designator indicates that the panel is 'Standard' or bespoke to a particular make. My 2005 Hobby motorhome had a 'bespoke' CBE panel with the difference to the standard panel being that it carried a button for the Hobby's tank heaters instead of for an awning-light.
It's perhaps also worth saying that the Hobby's tank heaters were for the external WASTE-WATER tank, not for the Hobby's fresh-water tank that was inside the motorhome and - I would have thought - this would be the norm. If I remember correctly, the Hobby's tank heaters were only operative when the motorhome was being driven or was on 230V hook-up.
As @SandraHdoes not seem to have consulted our replies, perhaps it may nor be inappropriate to make some comments on Derek's post above, and add to the knowledge base.
The 12V CBE installation in my PVC comprises principally of a PC200ih and a DS520AN. The derivation of the "ih" suffix is obvious. The "AN" suffix on the DS520 is less clear, as I have read of it being fitted by other converters. I have always taken it to denote a non converter specific variant. Derek's suggestion that the "ST" suffix on PC320 may denote "standard" is interesting.
As regards controlling a tank heater supply so as to be only available with either engine running, or EHU/charger connected it is not simple. I have done something similar to supply a coolbox. The engine on part is easy, just control a relay via the simulated D+ node. The mains on part is where the problem lies. This is because the "S" signal from the charger is limited by the output diode rating of 50mA. It normally has to supply the relay controlling the mains charging of B1, and initiate the mains icon on the PCxxx. The relay has a coil resistance of 254 Ohms, which means that it takes approximately all of the available 50mA. I decide that I needed to add a low current input Darlington driver circuit to supply the coil of the relay that I was adding external to the DS520. I would not expect a converter to go to such lengths, but the are several discrete transistors? on the DSxxx boards. so perhaps a similar driver circuit is already available?
Alan
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If the vehicle is not on EHU, and the tank heater remains on, then you will be discharging your habitation ("leisure") battery.
I do not know the power (wattage) rating of you tank heater, but if you assume a conservative value of 24W (24 Watts), then this will draw 2A from the battery, of which the Ampere Hour capcity (Ah) is not known to me. Asuming about 96Ah, which is fairly typical, over 24 hours the 2A heater current equates to 2A x 24h = 48Ah. This is half the assumed battery capacity. Discharging a Lead Acid battery below 50% is not recommended, as it shortens the battery life. You may see this quoted as 50% DoD (Depth of Discharge).
There is also the risk that if you completely discharge the battery, it could cause damage to the control panel electronics, but I think that this is more likely when the control panel has been left switched on.
Alan
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Like Derek I fitted a Varta H3 to my Fiat 2.8jtd a few years ago. This was also chosen for the Cold Cranking Amperes (CCA) rating.
I have previously used 038 sized batteries supplied by ABS (Advanced Battery Supplies) on our lawn tractor, and have been satisfied with there performance. After considerable research, I fitted two of their XD27 dual purpose batteries, in the habitation role on my PVC. These have a CCA rating of 1000A each.
For a 019 size battery the ABS Advanced 019XD has a CCA of 900A, which makes it worth considering. Price is competitive, but be aware that these are probably relabelled batteries. I have recently fitted a slightly smaller battery (096XD) to our Saab 1.9TTid. Too soon to see how long it lasts. Here is a link to the ABS 019XD battery. These batteries can be purchased from ABS on Ebay.
Another battery with a high CCA rating is the Exide EA1000 from Tayna. See here. Confirm that this meets your requirements before ordering. It is on my short list for future Ducato starter battery.
Alan
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17 hours ago, onecal said:
Hi
Just to clarify ,as you may just be still pulling your hair out , it is quite often the wiring connections do not give full voltage due to very high resistance , so on start up check what your voltage drops to. I think a new Control panel may solve your problem still ,but make sure you check all your wiring and you haven't a large voltage drop on same on start up .If you have and do not rectify this fault , even with the new panel fitted you may still be pulling your hair out, hope not
Best of luck with it , keep us informed on your outcome
Regards
I am concious that the CBE PC200/DS520 installation in my PVC is about 18 years old, and that the design life of these electronics may be 20 years. It seems possible that I could suffer from a similar failure to that experienced by the OP. With this possibility in mind, could you please specify as to where you suggest the the supply voltage should be monitored? The only supply points that are identifiable are the main B2 supply connections, and these are to M6 studs, which are hardly likely to introduce a significant resistance, unless they are loose.
As I have previously stated, I am not aware of any published data regarding the 16 way connectors which link the CBE PCxxx, and DSxxx units, however while we are dealing with volts, and not millivolts on the power supply pins, it may be worth reseating the connectors, perhaps with the addition a small quantity of contact cleaner.
Alan
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I have read of an SOS fuse that could be inserted in the event of control panel failure. Unfortunately this was associated with a DS300, and there was no post in reply when details where requested.
As my own DS520 is like me, no longer young, I have considered this possibility, but it would need at least partial pin out information for the 16 way connector. It would require 12V or possibly less, connecting to several of the interconnecting wires via a blocking diode array. These wires would be general ON signal, lights, and pump.
Alan
Just now, Derek Uzzell said:Except the CBE control-panel in Sambol's Winnebago is a PC220.
Thanks Derek, my error, for PC210, read PC220.
Alan
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On 27/11/2023 at 01:05, Sambol said:
Gday all!
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However I have left the -B2 connected to ground on the DS-520 as well as the +B2 connected the the positive of the new batteries.
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I've been pulling my hair out for weeks over this!
The PC210 is supplied from the DS 520 via a 16 core connecting cable. As the supply to the DS520 is via the connections quoted above, there is no need for any separate earth connection, and I think that it is reasonable to assume that someone who has been pulling their hair for weeks, will at least have checked that the main supply was present at the DS520 terminals.
As far as I know, there is no published pinout info for the 16 way connectors. This makes further testing problematic.
I can confirm the presence of the backup battery in my PC200, as a made a visual inspection after reading about it, unfortunately I have yet to trace the repair article. One obvious use of the backup battery, is to power the clock on the PC2xx, but it seems that failure of the battery causes other problems.
The timers mentioned in my previous post, included two heating programers, which I repaired by replacing the NiCad backup batteries. The timers were subsequently destroyed by a mains power surge, and the replacements of the same make and spec contained lithium coin cells.
In the UK, there are companies who will test and repair CBE equipment, perhaps there will be similar services available in Oz?
Failing that backup battery replacement could be attempted, on the basis that there would be little to lose.
If considering a replacement PC2xx, please note that the only difference that I can see between the PC210, and my PC200 is that the push button switches are in different positions, and restyled. The functions are almost identical. The only detectable difference in function is that my PC200ih has an auxiliary button (which was not connected), instead of one with a music (radio?) symbol.
@Sambol, if eventually you need to purchase a replacement PC2xxxx unit, see this Motorhome Fun thread. You may be able to use either a PC210AN, and perhaps the older PC200AN.
Alan
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Hi Sambol.
The introduction from Arthur49 is sheer flattery, but I do admit to a modicum of experience. See below.
Welcome to the forum. Am I correct in thinking that you are located in Oz?
I have lived with, and wired around a DS520AN for over 17 years.
Other than those for tank levels and temperature sensors, the only sense wires associated with the DS520 are the "S" signal for the charger (mains on), and an ignition switched supply used for the simulated D+.
You have not mentioned the control panel PC100, or PC200 etc. I suspect that is where your problem may be. Over the years I have read of several PCxxx failures with some interest. The common factor seems to be that the habitation battery has been allowed to be come completely discharged (flat). Also over the years I have experienced the failure of several electronic timers, which have been due to the failure of the small NiCad backup battery. The DS520xx uses such a battery. I have read of a fix for a similar problem being to replace the NiCad with an external battery, possibly even a lithium coin cell such as a CR2030. If the PCxxx is indeed faulty, repair may be possible by a specialist repairer. Your control panel will probably be a PCxxxxx with the last two characters being letters specific to Winnibago e.g. PC200WA. I have read of and can link to an MH owner rejecting the inflated price of a custom unit and fitted a standard PCxxxAN instead.
When I squeezed a small 20A B2B (DC-DC charger) into my PVC, I fitted a simulated D+ operated changeover relay in front of the CBE B1 terminal, with the absorption fridge connected to the NO (87) terminal, and B1 terminal connected to NC (87a). B1 battery voltage can be monitored with engine off, and fridge does not draw from the B2B output. Mains charging of the staarter (B1) battery was retained.
The big question is how to prove that your PCxxx is the cause of the problem. Before doing anything it may be worth disconnecting the ribbon cable for several minutes, in an attempt to reset the processor.
Please post progress.
Alan
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If you are able to replace battery yourself, then Tayna Batteries offer next working day delivery. Not sure that this applies to orders placed on Saturday, but their website says telephone open until 7:00pm today. Worth a call? Tel. 01745 823399
If average discharge was 1A, then typical habitation battery rated at 95Ah would be about 50% discharged over 48hrs, Deeper discharges are not recommended.
Alan
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I am not a Kontiki owner, so my reply is subject to correction.
Here is what I would expect
Centre position "O",neither battery connected.
Pressing the front end symbol will connect the starter battery, which may then be charged from EHU. Only use this position in emergency, particularly when not connected to EHU, as the starter battery will be discharged, and you may not be able to start the engine.
Pressing the rear end symbol will connect the habitation or "leisure" battery. This is the normal on site position, and the 12V power should be supplied from the internal battery charger when connected to EHU.
I hope that is simple enough, but if in doubt ask again.
Alan
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Typically in Fiat based vehicles, the cigarette lighter, and similar 12V accessory socket, are only live when the ignition is on, so as Derek says cannot be used to charge the starter battery. On my 2006 x244 Ducato, I made a relatively simple fix for this deficiency.
To disable the split charge relay circuit, perhaps the best method is to remove the fuse connecting to the starter battery. This fuse will be rated from 20A to as high as 50A, but for standard blade fuses, the maximum avaiable rating is 40A. The fuse could be either inline or mounted with others in a small block. It should be adjacent to the starter battery.
I advise against trying to support unserviceable habitation ("leisure") batteries via either the alternator, or the mains charger, as it is possible to damage them, and repair cost could be considerable, also battery explosions are not unknown. Better to remove the batteries from the vehicle.
If the battery warning light illuminates when the habitation batteries have been disconnected, this should not be ignored.
Alan
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I do not have details specific to the Burstner conversion, but I do have have a Schaudt Electroblock 119 diagram, so I will start from there.
1. The diagram shows 2 off 50A fuses, which should be close to the starter and "leisure" batteries. The batteries are shown to be linked via a separate split charge relay, which is labelled "Battery cut-off relay". It may be that the function of this relay has been replaced by a B2B.
2. The EBL 119 contains a "Refridgerator relay", and a "Fridge relay". Both relays are controlled by the D+ connection. The Refridgerator relay connects a 20A fused supply from the starter battery, which inputs at Block 2 pin 1, to Block 1, pin 1, for an absorption (non AES) fridge.
The Fridge relay connects the above 20A fused supply to Block 1, pin 4, for either an AES, or a compressor fridge, but when the engine is not running, an alternative supply is taken from the "leisure" battery via an EBL mounted 20A fuse.
It was this 20A fuse that was reccomended for removal when an AES fridge was fitted, in order to prevent draining the "leisure" battery.
The D+ input is at Block 2, pin 2. while a starter battery negative is connected at Block 2, pin 4 and linked to Block 1, pin 3, for connection to the fridge. The converter may have taken a shortcut, and connected the fridge directly to a negative point.
Schaudt show a 2A sensor fuse for the "Leisure" battery. This connects to Block 2, pin 5. It is possible that this has been superseded by a 1A fuse. Checking voltage on control panel with fuse removed and replaced should be a simple test.
@VXman has not made any reference to 50A fuses. I am wondering if the 20A fuse at the "leisure" battery fulfills this role? Also how is the connection to the starter battery for charging the "leisure" battery fused (missing 50A fuse above). Should be close to the starter battery, and that applies whether or not a B2B is fitted.
As regards fridge 12V current, not easy to measure unless a clip on DC ammeter is used. Look at the fridge rating label for Watts at 12V. Divide watts by 12, to obtain current in Amperes (A), then multiply by 14,4/12 to compensate for alternator charging voltage. That will give the theoretical maximum current carried by any 20A fridge fuse.
Alan
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I had wondered at the lack of any explanatory post.
Alan
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The Wikipedia article to which I linked, states that the D8C is a 1.9D, but the D8B is shown as 1.9TD, which is what Paul stated his engine to be.
This website also shows the D8B as being the turbo version
Alan
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