Keithl Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 colin - 2011-01-25 7:29 PM Merc's bombproof? I hope nobody has the misfortune of having to change the injectors on last model, they are a pig to change. Colin, I'm not saying they're bombproof, I don't think any vehicle will ever be completely free from faults, I just think they're far more reliable than F**t's and in my opinion ARE worth the extra money. At the end of the day "you pays your money and you makes your choice". Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
How Much Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Ive read a few posts saying theyd buy Fiat solely based on its looks. I find this staggering, given the amount of cash often parted with to own a decent MH. Fiats, in any guise - car, van, MH etc. have been crap since Adam was a lad. Its no surprise that theres 'little alternative choice' for anything else. The manufacturers dont need to put themselves to the trouble, as long as they know theres any number of suckers out there, only too happy to take their less than perfect goods off their hands, as long as they look good! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyclops2 Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 I have a Fiat 500 1.3 Multijet. There can be a problem with the Diesel Particulate Filter. I wondered whether the bigger Multijet engines have the same. The thing is that when the filter gets clogged the ECU increases the fuel mixture which causes the filter to burn off the particulates. If the vehicle is mainly used for short journeys this never completes and the surplus fuel goes down the cylinder walls into the sump. It has been known to run on the sump oil and over rev even with the ignition switched off Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michele Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Id buy another FIX It Again Tomorrow FIAT get it :D like hell I would, not overly impressed with the last one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 747 - 2011-01-25 6:56 PM On these sort of threads on m/home forums it always puzzles me why Iveco seem to have dropped off the radar. If you believe what you read, they had some very good points worth considering yet manufacturers no longer use them as a base vehicle. My 2.3 X250's Fiat M/H engine is an Iveco unit. So the other 2.3's probably are as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordThornber Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 How Much??????? - 2011-01-25 7:44 PM Fiats, in any guise - car, van, MH etc. have been crap since Adam was a lad. QUOTE] Is that an informed comment or just a glib one? I bought 2 brand new Puntos, both were faultless and very good value for money. Martyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 OK, a few answers. 1. You don't see many tippers/dropsides etc on Fiat chassis because front wheel drive is useless for heavily loaded vehicle, especially when it is mostly loaded over the rear wheels and more so when it is used on mud or uneven surfaces. Quite the reason why they are so popular for campers eludes me except for the low floor, which you just cannot achieve with a rear wheel drive chassis. 2. The Fiat 500 particle filter issue is actually a problem on most low emission city cars where they particulate trap has to heat up sufficiently to burn away the collected soot and other rubbish. It is definitely not a Fiat problem, and it affects all brands. A quick drive up a motorway or dual carriageway will fix it but this seems to be a bit daft since it is a city car. Back to the drawing board for everyone, I am afraid. Fiat Ducato's do not have these particulate traps.....yet. They will be a feature of the Euro5 engines when they are released in March 2011. 3. The Iveco Daily is a solid old bus and would make a great camper van conversion (in panel van form) at 3500kg as long as the conversion and your cargo (and that means people too) do not weigh more than about 1100kg because that is all the payload you get. A ladder frame chassis is strong, but therein lies the penalty. Many of the coachbuilts that have been built are on 4000 and 5200kg chassis which give a more realistic payload albeit with a very high chassis on which to build. Good for under-floor storage but a bit of a climb. Nick PS Yes, the 2.3 and 3.0 engines used in the Iveco Daily and the Ducato are almost exactly the same units. 2.3 is called F1A and 3.0 is called F1C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
747 Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 If you think a Fiat car is bad for the particulate filter, do not buy a Volvo. They have 2 fitted, they can fail early and once outside a warranty period, you will need a second mortgage to change them. As Nick says, Euro 5 might be good for emmissions but will probably bankrupt the owners. 8-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelly58 Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 One thing regards owning a Fiat you do get to save on fuel and thats not so bad with to-days prices ( France May 2010 ) And the driver did not strap it down for the 50 mile journey to Vannes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 Woo! 50 miles unstrapped?! :-S Now wouldn't it be nice if you could go into your dealer,be it Burstner/AutoTrail/Hymer etc,pick your model and layout ,any extra toys...and THEN specify which chassis you wanted it plonked on!... ..Oh well..dream on eh!... (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
How Much Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 LordThornber - 2011-01-25 8:26 PM How Much??????? - 2011-01-25 7:44 PM Fiats, in any guise - car, van, MH etc. have been crap since Adam was a lad. QUOTE] Is that an informed comment or just a glib one? I bought 2 brand new Puntos, both were faultless and very good value for money. Martyn Its a law of averages comment. Look around you on the roads. How many cars in the traffic queue at the lights are Fiats? How many trade vans are Fiats? How many wagons are Fiats? In fact, its only when you get to Motorhomes where you can reverse these figures. Motorhomes that must have the biggest list of complaints of any vehicles on the road. Theres a good reason for this discrepancy, and its the fact that in general, Fiat Vehicles have a long-standing reputation for unreliability. Theres no other logical reason for buying something with so many potential faults, and apparently in some cases, for no other reason than 'it looks good' All the potential owners of other Fiat vehicles seem to know something that MH owners dont. Or, maybe theyve just more sense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Leake Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 Keithl - 2011-01-25 7:23 PM dawki - 2011-01-25 7:01 PM There’s only one reason I would think about a Fiat and that is I think they are rather nice looking van. Cheers Dawki Sorry Dawki but I think they are pug ugly! (no pun intended). And as for the quality of the mouldings on the front end, I've seen better quality plastic mouldings on cheap kids toys. Every time I walk past one on a campsite I think to myself why would anybody (in their right mind) buy one. Now if AutoTrail still built on a Merc I'd buy a new one tomorrow. But seen as they don't then I'll stick with what I've got, Thankyou very much. Keith. We have an Auto-Trail on order for delivery in March naturally on a Fiat. Had they still built on a Merc that would have been my sensible choice were it not for the fact that my wife suffers from motion sickness and simply can't ride in a Merc with it's roly polly ride. We did try a test drive in one of another make and she felt sick within a few miles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhorsf Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 Not only the ride makes you sick in a Merc when you hole a piston and they want about 11000euro for a new engine as its your only option from a Merc dealer this tends to make you a little queasy also Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corky 8 Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 As it may have already been stated, the shortage of choice of base vehicle models is still the largest benefit to Fiat,When we came back to Motorhome,s after wanting to be more mobile than with a caravan, My first and gut choice was towards Mercedes,but was informed about the problems they were having with Injectors an the cost involved made me look at other alternative base vehicle,s we knew the conversion lay out we wanted , Fiat was a none starter with me Ive Never ever liked anything they have produced car or commercial, but then your left with Ford Transit (now outstanding I believe), Renault (far and few between ),when we were looking, Peugeot & Citroen different badge same innards, Vw again not that many larger coach built models available, so your back to the Largest available base Vehicle Fiat ,so we bought the lay out we wanted which was on a fiat 2.8 had too many problems with it so went for a new one, bought a New 2.3 Fiat engined Burstner, but problems with the reverse judder, the fuel meter valve problems and Fiats attitude to the customers, plus problems on the Burstner side after 6000 mile,s I gave up on Fiat and went for my first choice Mercedes, ( Injector Problem now behind them)which which I,m over the Moon with, they are not called sprinter for nothing, unlike some I dont find anything wrong with the ride, its a commercial based vehicle so if you treat it thus you get no surprises, but Fiat Never again, I,d sooner walk, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
How Much Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 I cant understand why Ford dont bite the bullet and get in on the base vehicle market. There wouldnt be a Fiat on the road in ten years if they did. Their general vans have had reliability stamped all over them for decades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 Colin Leake - 2011-01-26 2:30 PM Had they still built on a Merc that would have been my sensible choice were it not for the fact that my wife suffers from motion sickness and simply can't ride in a Merc with it's roly polly ride. We did try a test drive in one of another make and she felt sick within a few miles. Colin, Yes our Merc wallowed somewhat more than I would have liked when we bought it and corners had to be taken slightly slower than normal but after excellent advice from this forum I fitted Dunlop Auxiliary Air Suspension to the rear and all is now sorted. Remember that these base vehicles are commercial vehicles and most will rarely if ever run at maximum weight, unlike a MH which is often near it's MAM when unladen! Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 Sorry, I just cannot agree with you on that one. (How Much???) If Ford had been the pre-eminent chassis supplier to converters for the last 10 years then there would be as much, if not more complaints on forums such as this. The camper fraternity are, on the whole, the most discerning users of commercial vehicles on the face of the earth. (By that i mean the most fussy, scrutineering and exacting). The numerous faults that van fleets learn to deal with or avoid would be analysed, dissected and agonised over by the camper van population and in doing so, the appalling customer service from Ford would be exposed to all. I hope that you get your wish, but I suspect that the reticence by Ford to provide something genuinely tailored is because of two reasons; 1. It would just not be as profitable as churning out standard vans of a disposable nature. 2. They are afraid of you. Ford do not give any kind of realistic discount to fleets smaller than 1000 units, so even if I wanted one I could not afford to do it. You see, the value of second hand vans is based on what the biggest fleets pay for them new. We would get about 25% less discount on a Ford, but when we sold it we might be lucky and get 10% more for it than the equivalent Fiat that we have used. I just does not stack up. Not as long as Ford are giving them away to the biggest firms and making us pay through the nose with both high up front costs and poor resale values. Fiat give big discounts to the converters to the extent that they are being paid probably £14,000 for 'their' part of your pride and joy. It is the other greedy buggers that get the rest of your £50,000. How much integrity do you expect for the price of a plush Nissan Micra? Get some perspective! Anyway, the point is that Fiat's engineering is better than some, worse than some. Thier customer service is not as bad as many, and we only know this because they are No1 in your marketplace and face the wrath of you all when things go wrong (at least on here, anyway; you should be more prepared to take it back to where you bought it from and make them sort things out). I would love to read what you all thought of Ford if they were No1. I must state, for the record that I am pretty cheesed off with Fiat for a great many reasons but most of the problems that I have had will be unlikely to affect you unless you do 200,000 miles in 4 years and that is a little unlikely. For the price, drive quality and general fitness for purpose there is nothing else that I will buy other than the Fiat Ducato. Good honest value is a somewhat forgotten virtue; but this is what Fiat represents. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 OooH! ..this thread is really confusing me now!? :-S I've been trying to keep abreast of this "fiat lark"(..for any future purchases)and just when I think,"..right,best not to go near a Fiat for a while just yet then..",Nick goes and posts again and sings their praises! (lol) So Nick,if I may ask(..sorry,I'm pretty new around here :$ ),what vehicles do you run and what sort of weights do they lug about?.. I know the mileages that you talk of are far and away above anything a MH would be doing but are they always loaded to within a whisker of their gvw,as MH always tend to be?... Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 Chris, We have a fleet of rental vehicles and run about 35 Fiat Ducato Maxi vans, mostly with 2.3 engines and the first 12 of these were registered in 2007. These vans have now covered between 160 and 210,000 miles and have had some issues along the way. The clutches have lasted between 60,000 and 140,000 miles and do not wear out, they just fall apart without warning. Some of them exhibited juddering in reverse, and some actually make loud whining noises when going backwards but we have only had to repair 2 gearboxes and for the mileages concerned this is not only better than our old 2002 to 2006 Fiats but much better than the record of our Transit operating customers. Several vans had problems with EGR and had throttle bodies replaced. The later ones have a different part number and have been no trouble. We have only recently had to change any front wheel bearings, which compared with the previous vans is a remarkable improvement. There have been several electrical faults requiring wiring repairs in the loom either under the NS headlight or between the fuse box and the injectors. We have recently had earthing issues which has required the earth strap to the gearbox to be uprated and replaced. Many of the vans have had stiff rear door hinges from new, and this has led to a splitting of the door skins. These have been welded, plated and new hinges fitted which while annoying is not an expensive exercise. The earliest vans came without a plastic cover over the injectors and initially I did not think this would be a problem. The Iveco Daily (we run loads of these) with the same engine has had no issues with removing injectors or their securing bolts, so I did not expect them all to snap off and require specialist equipment to remove the injectors, but this has been the case. We had no injector faults at all during the first 3 years, so this has only just become apparrent. A cover is essential, and any leaking of water from the windscreen scuttle onto the engine needs to be addressed before it manifests itself as a problem down the line. When we have had problems outside the warranty period, Fiat have been unhelpful but that is hardly surprising and typical of most manufacturers. The major issue that has affected a significant number of camper owners is the juddering gearbox, and this well documented problem was not acknowledged by Fiat, and a remedy was not offered for 2 years until the pressure exerted by members of the forum caused them to react. There are still vans out there that have not been modified, but a drive up a decent slope should confirm whether it is affected or not. Some of the owners whose vehicles have been modified are still unhappy because it is a bit of a bodge and not the re-design of the gearbox that really was required. The 2.3 6 speed is the worst affected, there were a number of 2.2 5 speeds affected too, but there are modifications available for them and since April 2009 (I think) all new vehicles were built with the mods incorporated. The 3.0 version has had fewer problems and thus far there are no modifications available; in fact Fiat denies there is a problem. The comfort-matic gearbox uses the same box and clutch but has not been reported as having any faults. I have some of them and I think they are brilliant. There are no vehicles out there from any manufacturer that are free from faults, what has incensed the owners of x250 vans that have had gearbox problems is the appalling treatment that they received from Fiat while trying to get some help. Many will never forgive Fiat, some have traded in and bought something else altogether. Anyone thinking of buying a used X250 should tread with caution, and anyone buying a new one should not accept delivery of it without checking that it drives as it should. The reverse gear ratio is too high for cautious progress without some deft clutch control and some of the vehicles have been unable to carry this off, some drivers have been equally challenged by the task. What we know for sure is that the problem is a bit random and that 2 identical vehicles in every respect may or may not be affected. I hope that helps, I try to give a balanced view using 1st hand information only, and to assist people in making informed choices. There is a lot of B.S. out there and I try to cut through it. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 Thanks very much for that,full and balanced info' Nick.. (..as you say it is probably all to easy to get caught up in the "..I know someone,who knows somebody,who had a problem..",type of internet banter...;-) ) I had made note of your praise of the 3ltr auto before...as it's something that we *may* look at sometime in the future,when we replace our Renault 2.5 dCi150... Thanks again Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 Chris, Exactly my point. Your 2.5dci Renault is well known for electrical faults, gearbox failures and injectors that are so hard to remove that you often just pay for another engine or scrap the van. But it has not spoiled your enjoyment of your vehicle, has it? I bet you could run yours until it's 10 years old, and 100,000 happy miles before you experienced any major issues. What concerns me is that currently there are hundreds if not thousands of ageing camper vans still happily chugging along; some without turbo's and some without even power steering. All quite reliably, I might add. The vans of today will not be viable at those kind of ages. Even with low mileage, something unthinkable will occur eventually and it will cost so much to put right that it will be removed from the road permanently. Long live the old vans. Fiat, or otherwise. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 ..I think our next vehicle may well be based on an old horsebox or bus conversion (lol) ..something underpinned with a bit more substance(altho' probably a lot more crudity) and not some wobbly,over bodied fwd van,which is being expected to punch above it's weight.. (lol) (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David B Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 We should all give thanks for Nick's (Euroserv's) unstinting detailed responses on this forum. To have such a contribution from a van fleet operator is invaluable to us motorhomers. On behalf of all MMM members may I thank Nick. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tazdog6007 Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 what happened to fiat? my 2.8 burstner 2002 went six years without missing a beat. the wifes punto the same.hope my new pug 2.2 will be o.k! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tazdog6007 Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 what happened to fiat? my 2.8 burstner 2002 went six years without missing a beat. the wifes punto the same.hope my new pug 2.2 will be o.k! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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