Guest pelmetman Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 Brian Kirby - 2014-08-09 4:27 PM So, how could they have suffered CO poisioning? Can't say, but the reporter seems not to have witnessde the hospital reports on their condition. If certain windows are left open on vans while travelling, they can draw in the van's own exhaust fumes. This is quite reliably documented, though rare. A water heater or fridge flue that has become disconnected can also be a source of CO within a van. Even a cooker, if left on with minimal ventilation can do so. Any of these is, IMO, more plausible than the story about a robber using such a slow and uncertain route to commit robbery - an act that opportunist robbers usually prefer to carry out quickly, with minimal evidence of going "tooled-up". So, having an open mind, m'Lud, I am not convinced we have the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. That's all. :-) I'd have thought the hospital staff would of said that their CO levels are within normal parameters :-|......... Plus I'm not convinced that pumping a van full of exhaust fumes will take that long.............You may have missed my post, but last service my camper came back with the batteries removed from my CO alarm...............my mechanic chap who brought it back said the alarm was driving them bonkers, as it kept going off.............it was parked next to a car that was undergoing diagnostics with the engine running ;-)......... So I suspect if you wanted to "Intentionally" fill a camper with exhaust fumes then I suspect it'll only take a few minutes 8-)............ Maybe I should carry out an experiment to see how long it'll take for the alarm to go off if I "Intentionally" fill it with exhaust fumes :D...................although I'd need an independent witness.... as folk like me with open minds on the subject, are treated as heretics and blasphemers on here (lol) (lol) One things for sure unless they've got the skin of a Rhino, no one who reckons they were gassed will stick their head above the parapet, if they're going to be accused of being insurance fiddling drunken insomniacs :-|............... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 If you are bothered about gas attacks and are bothered enough to get an alarm there are plenty on the market - yet to find anyone who has been awoken by one though! If you are not bothered then don't bother - but don't be surprised when Dave tells you 'told you so' when you wake up robbed or dead! http://www.gasproducts.co.uk/acatalog/Caravan_Motorhome_Gas_and_CO_Alarms.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 maggyd - 2014-08-09 4:12 PM Well I believe this story that has appeared to-day, the people were hospitalized tested and it was proved they were suffering from carbon monoxide poisoning !! if it had been any equipment failing yes they would have woken with headaches and sickness BUT where had all their belongings gone? this is happening too much to be ignored and scoffed at. Careful Maggy...........You'll become another blasphemer :D...................... BTW to which story do you refer?.....the DM or the one that Antony mentioned in the Sun, as I've not read the Sun article............. I'd have to pay to read it 8-)............ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 Tracker - 2014-08-09 5:01 PM If you are bothered about gas attacks and are bothered enough to get an alarm there are plenty on the market - yet to find anyone who has been awoken by one though! If you are not bothered then don't bother - but don't be surprised when Dave tells you 'told you so' when you wake up robbed or dead! We've been woken several times by our CO alarm at home Rich.............and the fact that exhaust fumes set it of at the garage, has given me confidence I'd be alerted if someone tried to fill Horace with fumes B-).................whether it would go off if nitrous oxide was used I've no idea :-S.............but given the choice I prefer to be gassed by NO............at least it should be a giggle :D.............. Plus CO is more dangerous with potential serious long term side effects :-|............... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 pelmetman - 2014-08-09 4:51 PM..................I'd have thought the hospital staff would of said that their CO levels are within normal parameters But they were REPORTED as saying they showed signs of CO poisioning. However, no such report was produced in evidence. So, maybe there is a hospital report; maybe there isn't. But, let's assume there is. How would that prove the CO poisioning was a planned precursor to the robbery? Plus I'm not convinced that pumping a van full of exhaust fumes will take that long.............You may have missed my post, but last service my camper came back with the batteries removed from my CO alarm...............my mechanic chap who brought it back said the alarm was driving them bonkers, as it kept going off.............it was parked next to a car that was undergoing diagnostics with the engine running ;-)......... So I suspect if you wanted to "Intentionally" fill a camper with exhaust fumes then I suspect it'll only take a few minutes 8-)............ You may, indeed, suspect that Dave, but I don't! :-) CO alarms are very sensitive, and are set to a level well below that which presents any health risk. I provided a chart giving the concentrations of CO needed to cause loss of consciousness. Have a look back. Then estimate the amounts of CO required for quick results, avoiding risk of deaths, then estimate the amount of CO in the robbers car's exhaust (the newer the car, the lower the level), then consider how long the robbers want to hang around, and how hard they are prepared to rev the engine to speed up the rate of injection. Consider also the likelihood that in doing something so risky the robbers were merely lucky in managing to anaesthetise all six occupants without any of the other effects of CO poisioning (all in the chart) either waking, or killing, one of them. Then consider why such highly capable people with such sensitive equipment would be wasting their time pilfering petty sums from motorhomes on an autoroute service area. I accept that you do believe it, and that you want to believe it, (possibly because it annoys Frank rather more than because you really want to other people to rush out and waste money buying unproven "gas" alarms), but the story, as told, for all the reasons given in this string, is simply not credible as fact. I suppose what really puzzles me is that folk still prefer to believe dodgy reports in newspapers in preference to the opinions of experts in the field, while ignoring the complete absence of any evidence as to how such gases could be injected into motorhomes, what the gases might be, what concentrations are required to achieve just the right level in the vans, the difficulty in estimating the volumes of the vans, the fact that no police force seems ever to have found such gases when highway robbers have been arrested, and that no-one has turned up dead as a consequence of such risky procedures. Having an open mind is one thing, but this is akin to believing in a flat earth while looking at the pictures of its sphere taken from the moon! However, even though it drives me to distraction, I admire your persistence! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 Brian Kirby - 2014-08-09 6:24 PM However, even though it drives me to distraction, I admire your persistence! :-D Really? Why should it bother anyone what anyone else believes - or says he believes - possibly just to provoke discussion and dissent? We are each fee to believe what we want and fortunately for us the thought police are thin on the ground - even on here! I don't believe it! PS - If the Earth is flat why are there hills and valleys? PPS Are Dave's wind up skills getting better all the time? PPPS Don't worry - be happy! PPPPS If Dave Newell retired at five who will commit hari kari at 10? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Symbol Owner Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 Brian Kirby - 2014-08-09 6:24 PM I accept that you do believe it, and that you want to believe it, (possibly because it annoys Frank rather more than because you really want to other people to rush out and waste money buying unproven "gas" alarms), but the story, as told, for all the reasons given in this string, is simply not credible as fact. I suppose what really puzzles me is that folk still prefer to believe dodgy reports in newspapers in preference to the opinions of experts in the field, while ignoring the complete absence of any evidence as to how such gases could be injected into motorhomes, what the gases might be, what concentrations are required to achieve just the right level in the vans, the difficulty in estimating the volumes of the vans, the fact that no police force seems ever to have found such gases when highway robbers have been arrested, and that no-one has turned up dead as a consequence of such risky procedures. Having an open mind is one thing, but this is akin to believing in a flat earth while looking at the pictures of its sphere taken from the moon! However, even though it drives me to distraction, I admire your persistence! :-D Hear hear! Brian - why/how any one with even half a brain believes these tabloid stories rather than the obvious good sense (backed up by scientific fact) that you ( and others - including Frank) dispense is beyond me! Surely this thread has meandered on far enough? My patience with this nonsense has been sorely tried! Colin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 Brian Kirby - 2014-08-09 6:24 PM pelmetman - 2014-08-09 4:51 PM..................I'd have thought the hospital staff would of said that their CO levels are within normal parameters But they were REPORTED as saying they showed signs of CO poisioning. However, no such report was produced in evidence. So, maybe there is a hospital report; maybe there isn't. But, let's assume there is. How would that prove the CO poisioning was a planned precursor to the robbery? Cant do that fancy dividing up the post stuff ;-)................. Reported showing signs of "poisoning" ..............not back ground levels ;-)...........Why no copy of the report?.............pretty obvious to me, the DM is a newspaper and column inches = money so I doubt printing a verbatim copy of the hospital report to feed the feverish O&L skeptics entered the equation :D........... Planned precursor to the robbery?................well the only other possibility is that there's a load of dodgy fridges out there.............and the tea leafs have lucked in by knowing just when the campervan occupants have passed out 8-).............. Blimey with that kinda luck I wouldn't be out robbing...........I'd be doing the lottery (lol).............. Yes I know CO alarms are set to go off well before dangerous levels are reached.............but the fact it was set of by merely being in a garage with another car, indicates to me, that it wouldn't take much to actually fill a camper intentionally, with enough fumes to incapacitate the occupants :-|......... Re the chart I've seen it before, not that it means a lot, as its no more than a technical list of numbers based on a test carried out in a controlled environment :-|...................If it'd been carried out in a camper with 6 people on board I might give it some credence *-)............. As for the lack of bodies..........If for arguments sake the Ner do wells pump in enough fumes in a few minutes just to incapacitate............ie make them drowsy so less likely to wake up ................then they break in allowing the fumes to escape...............their exposure to serious levels is minimised ;-)..................although I suspect they've so far been lucky and haven't targeted anyone with serious health issues :-|........... I guess it'll take a few stiffs to change the skeptics minds...............lets hope its not a skeptic that gets stiffed >:-)..................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pampam Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 Have been poisoned by carbon monoxide ,with a dodgy fridge flue it was an astral 22foot caravan ,i have never felt so ill in all my life sick,a headache like ive never had since ,i couldnt get my head off the pillow ,luckily my children were asleep in the end bedroom 1+2years old as i firmly believe we would have all perished the lounge/kitchen area had a slight dusting of soot as had my nostrils (they were black) but the kids in their bedroom were fine ,lucky ?i should say so always was wary of gas fridges since :pp:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 Brian Kirby - 2014-08-09 6:24 PM I suppose what really puzzles me is that folk still prefer to believe dodgy reports in newspapers in preference to the opinions of experts in the field, while ignoring the complete absence of any evidence as to how such gases could be injected into motorhomes, what the gases might be, what concentrations are required to achieve just the right level in the vans, the difficulty in estimating the volumes of the vans, the fact that no police force seems ever to have found such gases when highway robbers have been arrested, and that no-one has turned up dead as a consequence of such risky procedures. Having an open mind is one thing, but this is akin to believing in a flat earth while looking at the pictures of its sphere taken from the moon! However, even though it drives me to distraction, I admire your persistence! :-D What puzzles me even more is this blind faith in experts 8-).................When your RCoA expert started going on about the Russian theater siege I realised he didn't have a clue (lol)...................what similarities are there between a theater and a camper? *-).............. Has he actually done any experiments into how CO or NO act within the "Confined" space of a camper?............well we all know the answer is no.................I doubt whether he's ever even been inside a camper :-|............. So if your prepared to Blythely carry on condemning all the victims, as insurance fiddling drunken insomniacs Brian...............then feel free to carry on ;-)..................I'm quite happy with my CO alarm and I know it works on exhaust fumes B-)............... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 On reading that Daily Fail story it seemed to me to have a glaring error, but then it's probably been written by one of their typical third rate reporters. So in the interests of science I attempted to kill myself today, not really, but I did do some exhaust sniffing (was going to insert a reference to a certain 'practice' here but don't want to offend dave if he googles it). As expected even a very 'clean' modern exhaust produces a very distinctive smell and I know from experience that any concentration of exhaust gas in a confined space with absorbent materials such as cloth will keep this smell for ages afterwards, gas however doesn't always leave a smell. Yet there is no reference to this in the story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 colin - 2014-08-09 7:37 PM On reading that Daily Fail story it seemed to me to have a glaring error, but then it's probably been written by one of their typical third rate reporters. So in the interests of science I attempted to kill myself today, not really, but I did do some exhaust sniffing (was going to insert a reference to a certain 'practice' here but don't want to offend dave if he googles it). As expected even a very 'clean' modern exhaust produces a very distinctive smell and I know from experience that any concentration of exhaust gas in a confined space with absorbent materials such as cloth will keep this smell for ages afterwards, gas however doesn't always leave a smell. Yet there is no reference to this in the story. This is something that puzzles me to ;-)...............but thinking about it if your asleep or dozing and you got the whiff of exhaust fumes on a service area..............would you think someones pumping fumes into my camper? :-S...................and by the time you've had a few lungs full?........... Plus if the miscreant's pumped it through the vans air intake?............do they not have filters now days?............if so.........then is CO without the smell possible? :-| ............ Just asking those awkward questions that the experts dont :D............ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 pelmetman - 2014-08-09 8:28 PM Plus if the miscreant's pumped it through the vans air intake?............do they not have filters now days?............if so.........then is CO without the smell possible? :-| ............ We shut the heater air intake off at night under the impression that it slows down the ingress of biting insects - rightly or wrongly? But it might explain why we have never been gassed? Or maybe it's the coil of razor barbed wire we put around the van? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 Whilst when asleep you probably wouldn't notice it, whilst still awake you would, and certainly the next day the van would still stink of fumes, also from experiance it takes more than a few lung fulls of Suzi exhaust to put you under. A pollen filter doesn't remove exhaust smells, when following smelly cars/vans the vent needs switching to recycled to stop the smell entering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 Tracker - 2014-08-09 8:35 PM pelmetman - 2014-08-09 8:28 PM Plus if the miscreant's pumped it through the vans air intake?............do they not have filters now days?............if so.........then is CO without the smell possible? :-| ............ We shut the heater air intake off at night under the impression that it slows down the ingress of biting insects - rightly or wrongly? But it might explain why we have never been gassed? Or maybe it's the coil of razor barbed wire we put around the van? You should have a pollen filter, this will stop any insects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 Tracker - 2014-08-09 8:35 PM pelmetman - 2014-08-09 8:28 PM Plus if the miscreant's pumped it through the vans air intake?............do they not have filters now days?............if so.........then is CO without the smell possible? :-| ............ We shut the heater air intake off at night under the impression that it slows down the ingress of biting insects - rightly or wrongly? But it might explain why we have never been gassed? A sensible precaution Rich ;-)................one which I'll follow until any "evidence" that its a myth emerges :D................ My monies on the opposite (lol)............. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 colin - 2014-08-09 8:46 PM You should have a pollen filter, this will stop any insects. It may well Colin - I've never checked - shutting the vent also used to help keep Rosie warmer in the colder nights where she always slept in the cab! Poor Rosie died last December but we still shut the vents - perhaps we need another Border Collie to protect us! I wonder - can dogs be trained to sniff various forms of gas and bark to wake us up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 pelmetman - 2014-08-09 8:48 PM A sensible precaution Rich ;-)................one which I'll follow until any "evidence" that its a myth emerges :D................ My monies on the opposite (lol)............. Fair enough Dave - I can do you a good price on Govt surplus razor wire, although I was hoping to use it to create a North South divide! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 Tracker - 2014-08-09 8:52 PM Fair enough Dave - I can do you a good price on Govt surplus razor wire, although I was hoping to use it to create a North South divide! I think that's called Salmond wire (lol) (lol) (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 Tracker - 2014-08-09 8:50 PM colin - 2014-08-09 8:46 PM You should have a pollen filter, this will stop any insects. It may well Colin - I've never checked - shutting the vent also used to help keep Rosie warmer in the colder nights where she always slept in the cab! Poor Rosie died last December but we still shut the vents - perhaps we need another Border Collie to protect us! I wonder - can dogs be trained to sniff various forms of gas and bark to wake us up? I'm betting that if you check you will find it's pitch black, a new one is brilliant white. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 colin - 2014-08-09 8:44 PM Whilst when asleep you probably wouldn't notice it, whilst still awake you would, and certainly the next day the van would still stink of fumes, also from experiance it takes more than a few lung fulls of Suzi exhaust to put you under. A pollen filter doesn't remove exhaust smells, when following smelly cars/vans the vent needs switching to recycled to stop the smell entering. If you'd just woke up disorientated and discovered you'd been robbed.................would sniffing the soft furnishings be top of your must do list? :-S.............. Which is why the skeptics are doing the truth no favours *-)............. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Had Enough Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 pelmetman - 2014-08-09 7:18 PM What puzzles me even more is this blind faith in experts 8-).................When your RCoA expert started going on about the Russian theater siege I realised he didn't have a clue (lol)...................what similarities are there between a theater and a camper? *-).............. Has he actually done any experiments into how CO or NO act within the "Confined" space of a camper?............well we all know the answer is no.................I doubt whether he's ever even been inside a camper :-|............. Yet you have a blind faith in idiots with an insurance claim in mind! But if anything sums up your inability to think logically it's the statement that those with several years training in anaesthesiology aren't qualified to comment on the effects of gasses in a camper because they may not actually have been in one. Are you serious? They are trained to understand the effects of narcotic gasses on the human body, wherever it's administered. However, they probably can't calculate the amount of gas needed to sedate a healthy man in a camper for instance because they'd need to know his weight, his state of health, the cubic capacity of the motorhome and the number and size of the outlets from which the gas can escape. But your toes rags can do it without a hitch! And assuming that a man is gassed in a camper owing to faulty equipment, whom do you think will be called to asses the condition of the patient and advise on his treatment, a plumber or perhaps an orthopaedic surgeon? According to your silly logic they couldn't possibly ask a man trained in gassing just in case he's never actually been in a camper! But ignoring all this technical stuff about pumping in exhaust gasses or using hundreds of pounds worth of nitrous oxide, there is one totally obvious flaw that I and others have mentioned but you simply can't grasp. Why would anyone take the risk of running a car next to a camper and pump in gas and risk a murder charge? Why would they go to the trouble of lugging huge cylinders of expensive nitrous oxide and again, risk a murder charge if it goes wrong? Why would they do any of this when all they need to do is break in and very quickly, nick what's available? If someone wakes up they just leg it. No cars to worry about, no hoses to wind up, no cylinders to carry away and no chance of someone spotting them as they wait ages for the gas to enter the motorhome. Many people have been robbed in campers as they sleep. Some have disturbed the thieves. Most of therm have the brains to know that they not been gassed. Some of them are idiots or chancers who don't want to invalidate their insurance so they invent these ludicrous stories. So come on, why would anyone go to all this risk and trouble for what they can steal from the average motorhomer? It makes no sense whatsoever and anyone with a modicum of reasoning power can work that out! Which is why you can't. But why are we surprised? It's just what I'd have expected from you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Had Enough Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 pelmetman - 2014-08-09 9:05 PM If you'd just woke up disorientated and discovered you'd been robbed.................would sniffing the soft furnishings be top of your must do list? :-S.............. Which is why the skeptics are doing the truth no favours *-)............. Now that is really desperate! The whole van would reek to high heaven! Good God, is there no end to this stupidity? And it's sceptics for crying out loud, unless you're American! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 Had Enough - 2014-08-09 9:06 PM So come on, why would anyone go to all this risk and trouble for what they can steal from the average motorhomer? It makes no sense whatsoever and anyone with a modicum of reasoning power can work that out! Which is why you can't. But why are we surprised? It's just what I'd have expected from you. Oooh another Frank diatribe :D...................... It makes no sense to apparently intelligent folk like you *-)...................why?.............because an expert told you so (lol) (lol) (lol) (lol) (lol)................... Which is why the criminal mind consistently out thinks the "EXPERT"mind >:-)................Your reasoning that they don't use some form of incapacitate, is because they haven't spent 7 years at college learning how to gas people properly *-)....................well maybe they don't give a tinkers cuss for rules :D.................well they are criminals after all ;-)............. As for why no ones been caught yet?..............maybe they have............armed with a bit of hose (lol)........or legal Nitros Oxide ;-)............ But time is on my side, as you skeptics have shot your bolt...............eventually I suspect someone will get caught in the act or the sheer number of people being robbed will out weigh the laws of probability..............that they're all insurance fiddling, drunken, insomniacs >:-)............ Or some poor b*gger will end up in a body bag because they believed intelligent folk like you.............nothing new there eh? >:-( BBBB................as we used to say in the forces :D........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 Had Enough - 2014-08-09 9:10 PM pelmetman - 2014-08-09 9:05 PM If you'd just woke up disorientated and discovered you'd been robbed.................would sniffing the soft furnishings be top of your must do list? :-S.............. Which is why the skeptics are doing the truth no favours *-)............. Now that is really desperate! The whole van would reek to high heaven! Good God, is there no end to this stupidity? And it's sceptics for crying out loud, unless you're American! How could you tell wearing a gas mask?............ BTW untrained personnel using gas masks should be aware that the filter should be changed periodically or else they end up rebreathing their own bullsh*t...............and end up spouting cr*p ;-)........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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