pepe63xnotuse Posted August 8, 2014 Share Posted August 8, 2014 ..and when apprehended, the perpetrators told local reporters... ".. to be honest, probably a bit late for than now, I know, but we wouldn't have considered this "gassing" lark as a way of robbing motorhomes and caravans, that was until we had a quick Google and came across a UK based motorhome forum, on which there was this one chap, "pelmetman" or something, who, judging by the amount of column inches he posted on the topic, must have been very knowledgeable on the subject(either that or he just didn't get out much and loved a good Google and a bit of "copy'n'pasting", and the attention that it all brought him?)..anyway, although his theories did tend to fluctuate a bit, shifting from using vehicle exhaust fumes, to nitrous oxide and then back to exhaust again....and one minute he would assure us that once "gassed", folk would supposedly sleep very heavily, and on waking feel ill, nausea and headaches etc, but the next minute he said that, if insufficient "gas" was used, folk could even wake up in the middle of the night, and have no ill affects at !?..This certainly was not the sort thing we wanted to hear! At one point it did almost seem as if he was changing his theories, just to cover all of the bases..? But, having said that, he did manage enlighten some bloke, who after a few beers, was daft enough to leave his van door ajar and get his wallet nicked....and who, until it was pointed out to him, had no idea he had been "gassed"...! Anyway, we thought we'd give it a go....and Bingo! So a big thank you to "Pelmetman" where ever you are...and if ever you are passing, we have some swag to share with you...when we get out of nick of cause...". :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted August 8, 2014 Share Posted August 8, 2014 Hallelujah!!! At last some genuine humour to replace the sneers and snide - well done Pepe. Did the perps only get caught because they were asleep in their car due to side effects of unknown substance(s)? Look and learn how it can be done without personal insults. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted August 8, 2014 Share Posted August 8, 2014 Very amusing Pepe...............I see you have still got your colours nailed firmly to the skeptic mast ;-)................. Considering these incidents appear to be increasing, no doubt I'll have another story to flag up again soon ............... Better hope no one gets caught though :D...............As that'll really upset you skeptics (lol)........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted August 8, 2014 Share Posted August 8, 2014 pelmetman - 2014-08-08 6:57 PM Brian Kirby - 2014-08-08 6:49 PM So, as a sceptic who is open to persuasion given good evidence, I find the evidence lacking and remain a sceptic. I'm prepared to believe they believe it, and that they suffered CO poisioning, but not that the CO poisioning was deliberate in aid of robbery. Too slow, too uncertain. Plus, older Fiat door locks are quite easy to open, I understand, even assuming they remembered to lock them. As it was hot I assume only the fridge was on.............so if this was what caused them to suffer from CO poisoning................How lucky for the tea leafs :D...............to find a van full of unconscious people.........what are the odds on that eh Brian? ;-).............. BTW........... As the lock was damaged I reckon we can assume it was locked :-| ........... All they needed to be was deep asleep. Many people sleep through CO poisioning and wake feeling rough. It is not necessary that the CO anaesthetises them. As to the odds, lower than that the thieves successfully anaesthetised six people as the report suggests, IMO. The lock was stated to have been damaged, but I couldn't see the evidence. Even so, so what? They aren't difficult to open. For the reasons I gave, I'm sceptical that what was reported is what, actually, happened. It just doesn't quite add up. I just want reliable, convincing, facts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted August 8, 2014 Share Posted August 8, 2014 pelmetman - 2014-08-08 7:25 PM Better hope no gets caught though :D...............As that'll really upset you skeptics (lol)........... Au contraire Dave - most of us sceptics have enough of an open mind to comprehend and accept corroborated facts when and if we ever see them as a good enough reason to change our point of view. All that is missing is proper evidence and I don't mean heresay or Chinese whispers down the grapevine or via various iffy media with their own agenda. I have turned being wrong into an art form over the years so one more won't matter to me! If and when? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted August 8, 2014 Share Posted August 8, 2014 Brian Kirby - 2014-08-08 7:27 PM All they needed to be was deep asleep. Many people sleep through CO poisioning and wake feeling rough. It is not necessary that the CO anaesthetises them. As to the odds, lower than that the thieves successfully anaesthetised six people as the report suggests, IMO. The lock was stated to have been damaged, but I couldn't see the evidence. Even so, so what? They aren't difficult to open. For the reasons I gave, I'm sceptical that what was reported is what, actually, happened. It just doesn't quite add up. I just want reliable, convincing, facts. So all 6 people slept through someone breaking in.....and then carried on snoring whilst the thieves rummaged through the van 8-).................. Well IMO these incidents are becoming to regular, for folk to keep writing of the victims as drunk insomniacs ;-)............ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted August 8, 2014 Share Posted August 8, 2014 Tracker - 2014-08-08 7:30 PM pelmetman - 2014-08-08 7:25 PM Better hope no gets caught though :D...............As that'll really upset you skeptics (lol)........... Au contraire Dave - most of us sceptics have enough of an open mind to comprehend and accept corroborated facts when and if we ever see them as a good enough reason to change our point of view. All that is missing is proper evidence and I don't mean heresay or Chinese whispers down the grapevine or via various iffy media with their own agenda. I have turned being wrong into an art form over the years so one more won't matter to me! If and when? Trouble is the skeptics have no evidence either...........unless you class a letter about ether from the RCoA as evidence ;-)....................as most people are aware.......... I'm an "expert" skeptic (lol) (lol)......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted August 8, 2014 Share Posted August 8, 2014 As far as I am aware Dave it is not possible to prove that a theoretical event has never happened - just as it seem impossible to prove that it has? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted August 8, 2014 Share Posted August 8, 2014 ..as it's the weekend,knock yourself out and go crazy(ier) Dave... ;-) http://www.ufoencounters.co.uk/HaveYouBeenAbductedByAliens.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted August 8, 2014 Share Posted August 8, 2014 There is plenty of circumstantial evidence on this forum that at least one member has been abducted and returned to Earth severely modified - question is which one(s)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antony1969 Posted August 8, 2014 Share Posted August 8, 2014 We have a great thread going on over here on Fun Dave on the same subject ... We aren't so closed door on the subject either Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted August 8, 2014 Share Posted August 8, 2014 Tracker - 2014-08-08 8:02 PM As far as I am aware Dave it is not possible to prove that a theoretical event has never happened - just as it seem impossible to prove that it has? Except they only have to catch someone once to prove it happens ;-).................Considering the increasing frequency of these events............It's probably just a matter of time :D................ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted August 8, 2014 Share Posted August 8, 2014 pelmetman - 2014-08-08 8:27 PM Tracker - 2014-08-08 8:02 PM As far as I am aware Dave it is not possible to prove that a theoretical event has never happened - just as it seem impossible to prove that it has? Except they only have to catch someone once to prove it happens ;-).................Considering the increasing frequency of these events............It's probably just a matter of time :D................ I await with bated breath - but I won't hold my breath while we await! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigal55 Posted August 8, 2014 Share Posted August 8, 2014 Brian Kirby - 2014-08-08 6:49 PM This one puzzles me. It is initially plausible, but not entirely convincing. For a start, there is no clue as to how the CO was introduced into the van. Merely terminating a flexible from an exhaust under the van might, or might not - depending for example on wind strength - allow it to permeate in. However, the rate of permeation, and the concentration therefore being reached, would be incalculable. Passing a tube into the van from below would require the breaching of a gas-drop. Possible, and capable of being carried out silently, but still requiring the right concentration to be achieved for anaesthesia. They all appear of similar size and build (bet the van was overoaded :-)), so would probably succumb at about the same time (though I'd have thought differing ages and possibly health whould have led to differing outcomes). CO is not much lighter than air so would presumably spread fairly evenly, so sleeping high up or low down would not have made that much difference - though those sleeping higher would have been liable to get the highest dose. However, it seems odd that no-one seems to have suffered any of the symptoms listed below before becoming unconscious. Also, since they cited discomfort from heat making them restless, it seems odd they don't mention having had any of the rooflights open, which should have allowed any CO build-up to dissipate. However, the biggest flaws seem to me to be the time it takes for CO to act, the concentration necessary for unconsciousness within a reasonable (from a burglar's standpoint) timescale, and the probable time to achieve (and of necessity estimate/measure) that concentration using something as inexact as running a vehicle exhaust (the older the vehicle the higher the exhaust concentration of CO). It just has all the hallmarks of cooking on a charcoal barbecue, slow and imprecise, but with the added (? :-)) risk of killing the victims! If I wanted to rob a motorhome, I don't think I'd be prepared to unciol my exhaust hose, and then settle back for an hour or two (with the hose lying on the ground on a reasonably well lit autoroute services) until reasonably certain all six of the occupants had become unconscious. Accepting that they all suffered from CO poisioning, and that they were robbed, I just wonder if the source of the poisioning was within their own van, rather than external, and the robbers were merely lucky in targeting a vanload of already groggy travellers. I've "borrowed this from Wiki. Thank you Wiki :-) But just look at the concentrations, their effects, and the timescales necessary for them to be realised. Carbon monoxide poisioning. Concentration...............Symptoms 35 ppm (0.0035%)........Headache and dizziness within six to eight hours of constant exposure 100 ppm (0.01%)..........Slight headache in two to three hours 200 ppm (0.02%)..........Slight headache within two to three hours; loss of judgment 400 ppm (0.04%)..........Frontal headache within one to two hours 800 ppm (0.08%)..........Dizziness, nausea, and convulsions within 45 min; insensible within 2 hours 1,600 ppm (0.16%).......Headache, tachycardia, dizziness, and nausea within 20 min; death in less than 2 hours 3,200 ppm (0.32%).......Headache, dizziness and nausea in five to ten minutes. Death within 30 minutes. 6,400 ppm (0.64%).......Headache and dizziness in one to two minutes. Convulsions, respiratory arrest, and death in less than 20 minutes. 12,800 ppm (1.28%).....Unconsciousness after 2–3 breaths. Death in less than three minutes. So, as a sceptic who is open to persuasion given good evidence, I find the evidence lacking and remain a sceptic. I'm prepared to believe they believe it, and that they suffered CO poisioning, but not that the CO poisioning was deliberate in aid of robbery. Too slow, too uncertain. Plus, older Fiat door locks are quite easy to open, I understand, even assuming they remembered to lock them. Also c.o. attaches it,s self to hemoglobin and stops it carrying oxygen and the only way to remove it is a complete blood change or time to allow the body to slowly do it,s own blood change. if you breathed in enough to make you Unconscious your not coming round again without rapid medical intervention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chas Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 I find it incredible that these events of being robed , gassed, the victims are treated as liars, cheats, insurance fraudsters ! It must be something else, these victims are treated with scorn on this forum, and it shows. Serves them right for sleeping at a motorway rest area, bla-bla-bla. This particular event, means the victims seeked help, the police were involved, who admit it happens more often than imagined, medical examinations are carried out to confirm the gassing. These victims go public, in the hope it will warn fellow travellers of the possible dangers, and they are branded as liars, incredible. I wonder if any one on this forum who has found as many reasons as possible why this could not happen became victims them selves, would have the guts to admit it on this forum. Some how I don't think so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 bigal55 - 2014-08-08 9:24 PM Also c.o. attaches it,s self to hemoglobin and stops it carrying oxygen and the only way to remove it is a complete blood change or time to allow the body to slowly do it,s own blood change. if you breathed in enough to make you Unconscious your not coming round again without rapid medical intervention. Bearing in mind the victims were exposed to CO for a short period, and the source of the CO would of been removed and fumes allowed to dissipate when access was gained................I suspect the risk of serious injury was reduced :-| .................. Given the choice I'd prefer to be gassed by Nitros oxide, as it appears from the BBC this morning that habitual users are the ones at most risk, looks like its pretty easy to get hold of to 8-).......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 chas - 2014-08-09 5:54 AM I find it incredible that these events of being robed , gassed, the victims are treated as liars, cheats, insurance fraudsters ! It must be something else, these victims are treated with scorn on this forum, and it shows. Serves them right for sleeping at a motorway rest area, bla-bla-bla. This particular event, means the victims seeked help, the police were involved, who admit it happens more often than imagined, medical examinations are carried out to confirm the gassing. These victims go public, in the hope it will warn fellow travellers of the possible dangers, and they are branded as liars, incredible. I wonder if any one on this forum who has found as many reasons as possible why this could not happen became victims them selves, would have the guts to admit it on this forum. Some how I don't think so. I hope you realise you've just nailed your colours to the heretics mast :D............... Duck!...............Skeptic abuse incoming 8-)........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chas Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 Perhaps if there had been t.v. news showing this unfortunate family being brought out of there motorhome in body bags, some would be suggesting "mass suicide" >:-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antony1969 Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 Now don't laugh but you may want to read page 24 of The Sun today , just had a break and cup of tea and read of another gas attack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Had Enough Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 Scene: The office of Ivana Kuchukokof, the head of the EUCS (East European Crime Syndicate) French branch. “Ok, Sergei, one tiny branch of our business is knocking off the odd motorhome or caravan that we come across on a motorway services. We break in in the early hours when they’re all asleep, usually tired out after a long drive and a couple of glasses of wine and quietly nick whatever’s around, although I’m not sure why we bother as it’s normally not very much. This is virtually risk-free as, if they wake up, they’re disoriented and can’t react quickly so we just leg it. They can’t follow as they’re woozy and half naked so none of our lads has ever been caught. But now Sergei, you’ve come up with this stupid car exhaust scheme. You’re suggesting that we actually park a car alongside, clip on a specially modified hose, and run the engine for an hour or two whilst waving the end of the hose under the caravan in the hope that just enough gas will seep up to put them into a deep trance. So from a virtually risk free operation, we’re moving to one where there’s a huge chance of someone spotting us, noting the car number and calling le flic. So from a risk-free operation we’re moving to one where, if you get it wrong, we’re all up on a murder charge, and for that, they’ll be checking every camera for ten kilometres around. I know you’re not too bright Sergei, but are you mad? Who in their right mind would want to try something so stupid for such a tiny reward and such a high risk?” “Yea, you’re right boss, I’d not really thought it out but I’ve read all these reports and thought it would be easy, there was one in the Daily Mail yesterday.” “Sergei, Sergei, what am I to do with you? This is the family who, on returning from holiday had £1900 left in cash. This is the family who have to go on holiday six-up in a campervan, but are so rich that they had loads of jewellery. You can guarantee that when the insurance claim goes in every one of them will have owned a Rolex! Sergei, the silly buggers woke up feeling muggy, perhaps their fridge was on the blink? Realising that they’d been robbed and having read all this b*ll*x about gassing they immediately had a brilliant idea. We’ve been gassed!” “But boss, the hospital said that they’d been gas using a car exhaust” “No Sergei, these idiots claim that the hospital said they’d been gassed. How would the hospital know the difference between a bit of carbon monoxide from a dodgy fridge and car exhaust gasses? Apart from which, with the amount of car exhaust gas needed, the entire caravan would have smelled like a barbeque had been on all night” “You’re right boss. Stupid of me. In future we’ll stick to the ordinary break-in method. Not many rich pickings but risk-free.” “Good boy Sergei, I hate to be cruel but you’re not the brightest spark in my organisation, which is why I’m the top dog and you’re our handyman.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 Had Enough - 2014-08-09 9:27 AM “Sergei, Sergei, what am I to do with you? This is the family who, on returning from holiday had £1900 left in cash. This is the family who have to go on holiday six-up in a campervan, but are so rich that they had loads of jewellery. You can guarantee that when the insurance claim goes in every one of them will have owned a Rolex! Sergei, the silly buggers woke up feeling muggy, perhaps their fridge was on the blink? Realising that they’d been robbed and having read all this b*ll*x about gassing they immediately had a brilliant idea. We’ve been gassed!” Point of order Boris Gasbag...................You've already pointed out its impossible to pump enough gas/fumes into a camper ;-).....................So how does a small blue flame from a fridge manage it? >:-).............. Oooops another awkward question to gloss over (lol) (lol) (lol).............. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chas Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 You know, I think who is behind all these gassing incidents, yes, he even as the gall to wear his gas mask on this forum, the one used to enter these gas filled motorhomes. That's it I will get my coat. >:-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maggyd Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 Well I believe this story that has appeared to-day, the people were hospitalized tested and it was proved they were suffering from carbon monoxide poisoning !! if it had been any equipment failing yes they would have woken with headaches and sickness BUT where had all their belongings gone? this is happening too much to be ignored and scoffed at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 pelmetman - 2014-08-08 7:40 PM.................So all 6 people slept through someone breaking in.....and then carried on snoring whilst the thieves rummaged through the van 8-).................. ............ In short, Dave, yes. I have read more, and more credible, accounts of people having been robbed while asleep in their vans, and even of waking to find someone in their vans, than I have read credible accounts of people being gassed in their vans. Some folk sleep deeply, some don't. In a van with six occupants, all of whom had been on holiday together, there would have been an almost inevitable and continuous level of movement and sound within the van. I assume they must have become accustomed to that, or none of them would have got any sleep. A long drive on a hot day can be tiring. I assume they just fell deep asleep and the movements of the intruder were insufficiently significant, or unusual, to disturb any of them. "Doing" the door lock would be low risk. If the intruder disturbed anyone at that stage he'd presumably just have legged it. How long would he have needed to be inside for the rest? If items were left on a table etc, mere seconds. If the window by the table had been left ajar due to the heat, there would have been no need to enter at all. Robbed? Yes. Gassed? No. So, how could they have suffered CO poisioning? Can't say, but the reporter seems not to have witnessde the hospital reports on their condition. If certain windows are left open on vans while travelling, they can draw in the van's own exhaust fumes. This is quite reliably documented, though rare. A water heater or fridge flue that has become disconnected can also be a source of CO within a van. Even a cooker, if left on with minimal ventilation can do so. Any of these is, IMO, more plausible than the story about a robber using such a slow and uncertain route to commit robbery - an act that opportunist robbers usually prefer to carry out quickly, with minimal evidence of going "tooled-up". So, having an open mind, m'Lud, I am not convinced we have the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. That's all. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 chas - 2014-08-09 5:54 AM I find it incredible that these events of being robed , gassed, the victims are treated as liars, cheats, insurance fraudsters ! It must be something else, these victims are treated with scorn on this forum, and it shows. Serves them right for sleeping at a motorway rest area, bla-bla-bla. This particular event, means the victims seeked help, the police were involved, who admit it happens more often than imagined, medical examinations are carried out to confirm the gassing. These victims go public, in the hope it will warn fellow travellers of the possible dangers, and they are branded as liars, incredible. I wonder if any one on this forum who has found as many reasons as possible why this could not happen became victims them selves, would have the guts to admit it on this forum. Some how I don't think so. But that is precisely the point, Chas. We are TOLD that the police were involved, so we assume they were. But if a police theft report was produced, why didn't the reporter ask to see it, or why didn't the victims produce it? All the police admit is that such events are reported, not that they happen. By the time they arrive, the robbers have fled, and all they have is testimony from the alleged victims. Not once, to my knowledge, even when the odd gang of motorway robbers has been arrested, have the police found the means of gassing their victims. We are TOLD the hospital apparently provided treatment, which under the French health service is liable to have been part chargeable. No bills are mentioned. There is a claimed hospital report on the CO poisioning that, again, the reporter did not see. Why? CO is an extremely slow acting, and very dangerous, gas that was supposed to have been pumped into the van interior via a vehicle exhaust of unknown, and almost unknowable, CO concentration, in an inherently fallible fashion. And yet we are supposed to believe that it succeeded in simultaneously anaesthetising six people while they were robbed - without anyone being killed, or failing to succumb and raising the alarm. It is, literally, incredible. These stories frighten a lot of people, and consequently persuade them to go and buy gas alarms, and more. All of the stories I have read to date are logically flawed and, to me, reek of at least embroidery, if not complete invention. I just think we are owed truth, not scare stories. I do not call the storytellers liars, but I do not believe them when they tell stories that don't make sense, whatever may be their motives. I don't reserve this scepticism for victims of highway robbery, I treat all tellers of unbelievable stories in the same, even handed, way. I simply don't believe them. It is that simple. Would I tell if I were gassed and robbed? You bet I would. I would also present the facts to back up my story, including any police incident reports and hospital bills and reports. Why should that require "guts"? I haven't joined a closed order, so wouldn't find myself needing to recant: I just don't accept stories I find unbelievable. I'm quite prepared to be convinced. All I need is a burden of proof that convinces me. I don't much care what others choose to believe - many people have believed, and do believe, things that I don't. But, this is not about belief, because belief is what we are driven to in the absence of fact. So I repeat, all I want is fact, meaning that which can be, and has been, proved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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