Barryd999 Posted October 20, 2017 Share Posted October 20, 2017 RogerC - 2017-10-19 10:28 PMBulletguy - 2017-10-19 10:20 PMRogerC - 2017-10-19 9:03 PMAGD you put the message I have been attempting to get across with little success, so much better than I appear to have. I concur 100% that the whining has to stop, that no one knows the outcome and talking down the UK prospects is potentially a nation defeating attitude we could well do without. Yet here you are............still whining! :-S Unfortunately I consider both you, I and millions of others will have to suffer the machinations of the remain camp regardless of what the future holds because, as you can see from their posts here and comments elsewhere, they 'DO KNOW' what the future holds......because they keep on telling us. So when your 'Leave' policies don't quite go your way, it's down to the 'machinations' of those nasty Remainers eh? *-)Clearly you didn't get the message. It is the 'Remoaning' doom and gloom merchants I and millions of others are heartily sick of....your bleating on and on because you LOST.Then again you and your lot of 'Crystal ball' gazing loons clearly know the outcome so pray do tell.....detail not just waffle please.Your another one Roger that seems to be treating the referendum like a game of football. The remoaners as you like to call them lost the game so it should be all over for them and they should remain silent and stop spoiling your Brexit. We have had this since last June. Did you really think half the country (looks like more now) would just give up and walk away because of one dodgy vote a long time ago?You lot bang on about democracy but really only when it suits you. Rather than thinking of what remainers say as doom and gloom I think of it as Being concerned and realistic. Brexiteers are the opposite (most of them) all bravado and false positivity. It might lift your spirits temporarily but some of us see the emperors clothes for what they are and the sh1t storm that's heading our way and perhaps that's why we are so vociferous in trying to voice our opinions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derek pringle Posted October 20, 2017 Share Posted October 20, 2017 Tracker - 2017-10-19 7:48 PM It makes no difference what anyone says on here but when I see the likes of Jeremy Corbyn and his cronies whingeing and complaining in total capitulation instead of getting behind the government and pushing in unity against the EU for the sake of the country it makes me realise even more what a total waste of space the Labour leadership is. I agree Rich,, but would not confine this to Labour. When the country is in the s***t I believe we should ALL feel a little of the pain, starting with politicians as invariably they are the ones with the power to get us out of it and invariably the ones that put us in it. The only pay rises that the ordinary Joe has had has been modest tax increases, revenue the govt. should have kept to help with the social/economic problems they are struggling to solve.Companies in the meantime have paid in the main NO pay increases [except probably to themselves]. During a period of low inflation surely people could expect a modest increase to cover this from their employer and leave taxes as they were. cheers derek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted October 20, 2017 Share Posted October 20, 2017 Barryd999 - 2017-10-20 8:12 AMRogerC - 2017-10-19 10:28 PMBulletguy - 2017-10-19 10:20 PMRogerC - 2017-10-19 9:03 PMAGD you put the message I have been attempting to get across with little success, so much better than I appear to have. I concur 100% that the whining has to stop, that no one knows the outcome and talking down the UK prospects is potentially a nation defeating attitude we could well do without. Yet here you are............still whining! :-S Unfortunately I consider both you, I and millions of others will have to suffer the machinations of the remain camp regardless of what the future holds because, as you can see from their posts here and comments elsewhere, they 'DO KNOW' what the future holds......because they keep on telling us. So when your 'Leave' policies don't quite go your way, it's down to the 'machinations' of those nasty Remainers eh? *-)Clearly you didn't get the message. It is the 'Remoaning' doom and gloom merchants I and millions of others are heartily sick of....your bleating on and on because you LOST.Then again you and your lot of 'Crystal ball' gazing loons clearly know the outcome so pray do tell.....detail not just waffle please.Your another one Roger that seems to be treating the referendum like a game of football. The remoaners as you like to call them lost the game so it should be all over for them and they should remain silent and stop spoiling your Brexit. We have had this since last June. Did you really think half the country (looks like more now) would just give up and walk away because of one dodgy vote a long time ago?You lot bang on about democracy but really only when it suits you. Rather than thinking of what remainers say as doom and gloom I think of it as Being concerned and realistic. Brexiteers are the opposite (most of them) all bravado and false positivity. It might lift your spirits temporarily but some of us see the emperors clothes for what they are and the sh1t storm that's heading our way and perhaps that's why we are so vociferous in trying to voice our opinions.If you manage to overturn BREXIT do you think WE will accept the result? >:-) ........Do you think we will become a enthusiastic member of the EU? *-) ........If the EU thought we were half hearted before then they'll surely going to regret coercing us to stay >:-( ....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted October 20, 2017 Share Posted October 20, 2017 Seems what the Brexiteers are really arguing is that they "won" the referendum, therefore everyone should now say they agree with and support them - in case it all goes wrong - as they fear they may be held responsible for the outcome! :-D If it is a success, and we all get rich, I assume they will wish to claim the credit? So, if it goes wrong, the credit should lie where? Oh, silly me! It will all be the fault of the remainers, because there weren't sufficient of them to "win"! I note AGD thinks referendums are in accordance with "our version of democracy". Is this a new definition of "our version of democracy"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted October 20, 2017 Share Posted October 20, 2017 RogerC - 2017-10-19 10:28 PM Bulletguy - 2017-10-19 10:20 PMRogerC - 2017-10-19 9:03 PMAGD you put the message I have been attempting to get across with little success, so much better than I appear to have. I concur 100% that the whining has to stop, that no one knows the outcome and talking down the UK prospects is potentially a nation defeating attitude we could well do without. Yet here you are............still whining! :-S Unfortunately I consider both you, I and millions of others will have to suffer the machinations of the remain camp regardless of what the future holds because, as you can see from their posts here and comments elsewhere, they 'DO KNOW' what the future holds......because they keep on telling us. So when your 'Leave' policies don't quite go your way, it's down to the 'machinations' of those nasty Remainers eh? *-) Clearly you didn't get the message. It is the 'Remoaning' doom and gloom merchants I and millions of others are heartily sick of....your bleating on and on because you LOST. From what i've seen Roger the incessant "bleating" has been coming from you and a couple of others continually sniping and making disparaging quips which apparently are meant to be 'humorous'......and then you have the audacity to pompously demand those who voted Remain, should support you!! I've got news for you.......Remain voters are not living under your Totalitarian regime dream. This bloke summed up the reasons we are entitled to continue making our case perfectly in just 69 seconds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted October 20, 2017 Share Posted October 20, 2017 Brian Kirby - 2017-10-20 12:22 PM Seems what the Brexiteers are really arguing is that they "won" the referendum, therefore everyone should now say they agree with and support them - in case it all goes wrong - as they fear they may be held responsible for the outcome! :-D If it is a success, and we all get rich, I assume they will wish to claim the credit? So, if it goes wrong, the credit should lie where? Oh, silly me! It will all be the fault of the remainers, because there weren't sufficient of them to "win"! I note AGD thinks referendums are in accordance with "our version of democracy". Is this a new definition of "our version of democracy"? So are you saying Brexiteers didn't win the referendum?........ No doubt like some on here you also think Corbyn won the election? (lol) ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted October 20, 2017 Share Posted October 20, 2017 More BREXIT good news on the economy, government borrowing the lowest for 10 years last month B-) ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted October 20, 2017 Share Posted October 20, 2017 pelmetman - 2017-10-20 2:05 PM.............................. 1 So are you saying Brexiteers didn't win the referendum?........ 2 No doubt like some on here you also think Corbyn won the election? (lol) ......... 1 No Dave. 2 No Dave. That was the DUP! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted October 20, 2017 Share Posted October 20, 2017 pelmetman - 2017-10-20 2:19 PM More BREXIT good news on the economy, government borrowing the lowest for 10 years last month B-) ......... Yeah, well if you cut the NHS, police, schools, local authority and just about every other budget it is amazing what you can achieve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antony1969 Posted October 20, 2017 Share Posted October 20, 2017 Tracker - 2017-10-20 4:46 PM pelmetman - 2017-10-20 2:19 PM More BREXIT good news on the economy, government borrowing the lowest for 10 years last month B-) ......... Yeah, well if you cut the NHS, police, schools, local authority and just about every other budget it is amazing what you can achieve. Not immigration though ... Keep them coming Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted October 20, 2017 Share Posted October 20, 2017 Brian Kirby - 2017-10-20 4:37 PM pelmetman - 2017-10-20 2:05 PM.............................. 1 So are you saying Brexiteers didn't win the referendum?........ 2 No doubt like some on here you also think Corbyn won the election? (lol) ......... 1 No Dave. So if you accept Brexiteers won the referendum ........you must be anti democracy if you can't accept the result :-| ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted October 20, 2017 Share Posted October 20, 2017 pelmetman - 2017-10-20 6:12 PM..................... So if you accept Brexiteers won the referendum ........you must be anti democracy if you can't accept the result :-| ................ Er, no Dave:-D There is a huge difference between accepting, in the sense you seem to be using it, and agreeing with, the result. I think it is a bad decision. That is my opinion. It is not anti-democratic to hold that opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted October 20, 2017 Share Posted October 20, 2017 Brian Kirby - 2017-10-20 7:54 PM pelmetman - 2017-10-20 6:12 PM..................... So if you accept Brexiteers won the referendum ........you must be anti democracy if you can't accept the result :-| ................ Er, no Dave:-D There is a huge difference between accepting, in the sense you seem to be using it, and agreeing with, the result. I think it is a bad decision. That is my opinion. It is not anti-democratic to hold that opinion. Its anti democratic to try to overturn a legitimately won referendum *-) ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 pelmetman - 2017-10-20 10:29 PM Brian Kirby - 2017-10-20 7:54 PM pelmetman - 2017-10-20 6:12 PM..................... So if you accept Brexiteers won the referendum ........you must be anti democracy if you can't accept the result :-| ................ Er, no Dave:-D There is a huge difference between accepting, in the sense you seem to be using it, and agreeing with, the result. I think it is a bad decision. That is my opinion. It is not anti-democratic to hold that opinion. Its anti democratic to try to overturn a legitimately won referendum *-) ........ No, Dave. It isn't, providing the means used is democratic. What would be anti-democratic, would be to deny them their right to change their minds and choose an alternative path, if that is what they then wanted. But then, following a referendum, how is anyone to know if they have changed their minds, if they aren't asked? So, how does one ask? Well, since polls are unreliable, and elections involve too many other matters to gain a clear indication on the one, central, issue, one has to hold a further referendum, doesn't one? What could be more democratic than that? Of course, it implies that further referendums then have to be held, to be sure that people still like the decision they last made, but that is just the idiocy of referendums. It's just a pity someone didn't think that through before holding a referendum. Wonder who that was? :-D Folk can't have it both ways. Live by the referendum, die by the referendum, to coin a phrase! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 Brian Kirby - 2017-10-21 10:49 AM pelmetman - 2017-10-20 10:29 PM Brian Kirby - 2017-10-20 7:54 PM pelmetman - 2017-10-20 6:12 PM..................... So if you accept Brexiteers won the referendum ........you must be anti democracy if you can't accept the result :-| ................ Er, no Dave:-D There is a huge difference between accepting, in the sense you seem to be using it, and agreeing with, the result. I think it is a bad decision. That is my opinion. It is not anti-democratic to hold that opinion. Its anti democratic to try to overturn a legitimately won referendum *-) ........ No, Dave. It isn't, providing the means used is democratic. What would be anti-democratic, would be to deny them their right to change their minds and choose an alternative path, if that is what they then wanted. But then, following a referendum, how is anyone to know if they have changed their minds, if they aren't asked? So, how does one ask? Well, since polls are unreliable, and elections involve too many other matters to gain a clear indication on the one, central, issue, one has to hold a further referendum, doesn't one? What could be more democratic than that? Of course, it implies that further referendums then have to be held, to be sure that people still like the decision they last made, but that is just the idiocy of referendums. It's just a pity someone didn't think that through before holding a referendum. Wonder who that was? :-D Folk can't have it both ways. Live by the referendum, die by the referendum, to coin a phrase! :-D So you want Irish democracy .........Keep asking until you get the answer you Remoaners want *-) ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violet1956 Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 I don’t buy all this talk effectively elevating the EU referendum to the status of a great example of democracy in action. There are so many aspects of our relationship with the EU that voters were deprived of voting about in the referendum because only a single question was asked. What all Brexiteers wanted in relation all of those issues once we left the EU could not be gauged by one single answer. As one of the commentators in this article wrote after the EU referendum – “The idea that somehow any decision reached anytime by majority rule is necessarily ‘democratic’ is a perversion of the term …This isn’t democracy; it is Russian roulette for republics,” https://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/05/world/americas/colombia-brexit-referendum-farc-cameron-santos.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 pelmetman - 2017-10-21 12:41 PM......................... So you want Irish democracy .........Keep asking until you get the answer you Remoaners want *-) ......... You're really asking the wrong person, Dave. I don't like referendums as a way of determining government policy. But, answer me this. A referendum is held. Later, circumstances change, and people say they no longer hold the same opinions as when they voted. It doesn't matter whether this is those who supported the outcome, those who didn't, or both. What matters, is that result may no longer reflects public opinion. What to do? Suppose the result had been in favour of remain, but there was now evidence that public opinion had shifted in favour of leave. What should then happen? Another referendum to see whether opinion had shifted enough to secure a leave verdict? Or should the leavers tell themselves, even though they thought the country would be damaged by remaining, that they should stick by the result because it was obtained "democratically"? If so, for how long should that result ride before being tested again? Farage was quite clear. If the result was remain by a small margin, he would campaign for a further referendum. So, is he, the great fan of referendums, now anti-democratic? If you favour referendums as the way to direct government policy, you are obliged to hold a referendum whenever opinion seems to have changed, to ensure government policy keeps in step. Aren't you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogerC Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 Bulletguy - 2017-10-20 1:32 PMRogerC - 2017-10-19 10:28 PMBulletguy - 2017-10-19 10:20 PMRogerC - 2017-10-19 9:03 PMAGD you put the message I have been attempting to get across with little success, so much better than I appear to have. I concur 100% that the whining has to stop, that no one knows the outcome and talking down the UK prospects is potentially a nation defeating attitude we could well do without. Yet here you are............still whining! :-S Unfortunately I consider both you, I and millions of others will have to suffer the machinations of the remain camp regardless of what the future holds because, as you can see from their posts here and comments elsewhere, they 'DO KNOW' what the future holds......because they keep on telling us. So when your 'Leave' policies don't quite go your way, it's down to the 'machinations' of those nasty Remainers eh? *-)Clearly you didn't get the message. It is the 'Remoaning' doom and gloom merchants I and millions of others are heartily sick of....your bleating on and on because you LOST.From what i've seen Roger the incessant "bleating" has been coming from you and a couple of others continually sniping and making disparaging quips which apparently are meant to be 'humorous'......and then you have the audacity to pompously demand those who voted Remain, should support you!!I've got news for you.......Remain voters are not living under your Totalitarian regime dream.This bloke summed up the reasons we are entitled to continue making our case perfectly in just 69 seconds.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyyOyoeqKfM Now there is the joke of the week? Month? You remain lot are prepared to continue with the UK being under the yoke of the bureaucratic entity that is the EU leadership and you accuse me of wanting a totalitarian regime? You lot need to wake up and realise that the EU leadership is there to achieve what Germany couldn't in two world wars.....domination under the guise of a European Superstate through political and fiscal control because they found out that militarily they couldn't win. Oh and by the way I have no audacity claim whatsoever with regard to me or anyone else. All I ask is instead of doing the UK down and claiming your 'crystal ball' knows everything for certain, because the majority of the Remain camp on here have categorically stated they 'know' doom and gloom will be the outcome, is to quit the woe is me, sack cloth and ashes prophesy and to accept that there is life outside of the EU and give UK PLC a chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogerC Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 Brian Kirby - 2017-10-20 12:22 PMSeems what the Brexiteers are really arguing is that they "won" the referendum, therefore everyone should now say they agree with and support them - in case it all goes wrong - as they fear they may be held responsible for the outcome! :-D If it is a success, and we all get rich, I assume they will wish to claim the credit?So, if it goes wrong, the credit should lie where? Oh, silly me! It will all be the fault of the remainers, because there weren't sufficient of them to "win"!I note AGD thinks referendums are in accordance with "our version of democracy". Is this a new definition of "our version of democracy"? Statement or mere supposition? It appears to be another case of 'knowing' ....Is the Remain camp 'crystal ball of certainty' working again? All I would say is yes I, along with millions of others want to leave, we feel UK PLC will be better off outside of the clutches of the EU and that it deserves a chance to prove it. We are looking to UK PLC being a success whereas you, of the remain camp, appear to have no faith whatsoever in UK PLC. You appear to be constantly doing the UK down and there are those who are prepared to sacrifice our independence on the altar of a European ideal. An ideal which has and continues to morph inexorably into an entity which has all too clearly outgrown it's founding ideals and now pursues a path of domination with regard to fiscal, political, militarily, legal, commercial etc etc aspects all being driven by an overly ambitious political elite which clearly places it's own interests well above those it is supposed to serve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 RogerC - 2017-10-22 9:06 PM the bureaucratic entity that is the EU leadership Actually the Elected European Parliament for 27 countries is smaller than the unelected House of Lords alone for one country - why aren't we having a vote on that? Germany dominates the EU because it is the strongest economy. Something Britain once was, and still would be if it had been run differently. :-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 John52 - 2017-10-22 9:35 PM Germany dominates the EU because it is the strongest economy. Something Britain once was, and still would be if it had been run differently. :-( With Corbyn in charge? 8-) ............ (lol) (lol) (lol) (lol) (lol) ...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogerC Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 John52 - 2017-10-22 9:35 PMRogerC - 2017-10-22 9:06 PMthe bureaucratic entity that is the EU leadershipActually the Elected European Parliament for 27 countries is smaller than the unelected House of Lords alone for one country - why aren't we having a vote on that?Germany dominates the EU because it is the strongest economy. Something Britain once was, and still would be if it had been run differently. :-( At present I really don't care. This thread is concerned with the EU situation and I seen no relevance or value in diverting the topic with another of your anti establishment diversions. Although I agree with the current situation vis a vis the HoL here is not the correct forum to pursue that topic, (IMO). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 RogerC - 2017-10-22 9:35 PM...................... 1 All I would say is yes I, along with millions of others want to leave, we feel UK PLC will be better off outside of the clutches of the EU and that it deserves a chance to prove it. 2 We are looking to UK PLC being a success whereas you, of the remain camp, appear to have no faith whatsoever in UK PLC. You appear to be constantly doing the UK down and there are those who are prepared to sacrifice our independence on the altar of a European ideal. ................. 1 To which I would reply that I, along with millions of others, do not share that dystopian view, and feel the UK will be better off within the EU. 2 We look to the UK being a success within the EU, whereas you, of the leave camp, appear to have no faith whatsoever in the UK's ability to do this. You appear to be constantly doing the UK down with your belief that the EU bogey man, driven by a European ideal, will steal our independence from us. So, we disagree - but we already knew that. So what then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 pelmetman - 2017-10-22 9:42 PM John52 - 2017-10-22 9:35 PM Germany dominates the EU because it is the strongest economy. Something Britain once was, and still would be if it had been run differently. :-( With Corbyn in charge? 8-) ............ (lol) (lol) (lol) (lol) (lol) ...... It all about tenses, Dave. :-D "if it had been run differently" refers to the past. Britain was economically stronger than Germany, now Germany is stronger. The question you need to ask yourself is why? What did Germany do right, that we did wrong? Then ask whether that is the result of the EEC/EU (of which Germany is a committed member), or of successive British governments. You then have to ask how leaving the EU will actually change that, resulting in the UK overtaking Germany. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 RogerC - 2017-10-22 9:06 PM.......................You remain lot are prepared to continue with the UK being under the yoke of the bureaucratic entity that is the EU leadership and you accuse me of wanting a totalitarian regime? You lot need to wake up and realise that the EU leadership is there to achieve what Germany couldn't in two world wars.....domination under the guise of a European Superstate through political and fiscal control because they found out that militarily they couldn't win......................... Germanophobia rules, KO? We must leave the EU for fear of Germany? Is that it? Is this the (mostly) unspoken fear that is driving Brexit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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