More Brexit good news.......

[antony1969]

John52 - 2017-10-25 10:34 AM

 

RogerC - 2017-10-22 9:43 PM

Although I agree with the current situation vis a vis the HoL

So even you can't defend the House of Lords in a 'Democracy'

But the only one who might stop making it worse, and do something about it, is Jeremy Corbyn.

Which is why the Establishment is running smear campaigns against him.

 

A smear campaign suggests numerous lies by those in power or organisations against Mr Corbyn wether that be in spoken or the written word ... Might be good if you could post a few examples of those lies to validate your point otherwise it's just hot air

[John52]

antony1969 - 2017-10-25 10:40 AM

 

John52 - 2017-10-25 10:34 AM

 

RogerC - 2017-10-22 9:43 PM

Although I agree with the current situation vis a vis the HoL

So even you can't defend the House of Lords in a 'Democracy'

But the only one who might stop making it worse, and do something about it, is Jeremy Corbyn.

Which is why the Establishment is running smear campaigns against him.

 

A smear campaign suggests numerous lies by those in power or organisations against Mr Corbyn wether that be in spoken or the written word ... Might be good if you could post a few examples of those lies to validate your point otherwise it's just hot air

 

Quite remarkable that you can't see it without me spelling it out.

[John52]

Just copy and paste "Allies of Juncker and May clash over account of dinner" site:www.ft.com into your browser (to bypass the FT paywall) and scroll to the most recommended comment (lol)

[Guest pelmetman]

John52 - 2017-10-25 10:39 AM

 

pelmetman - 2017-10-25 9:36 AM

 

Good old Blighty confounds the doom mongers again >:-) ..........

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-41747940

 

Interest rates going up next month methinks B-) ......

 

 

Just subtract GDP from the real inflation rate and you might see why the National Debt is still growing

The only statistic that matters is the Current Account Deficit, but they don't like to talk about that *-)

 

Oh yeah that's the other bit of good news you remoaners glossed over ;-) .......

 

UK borrowing at a 10 year low >:-) .........

 

I can't imagine that happening under Corbyn (lol) ........

 

 

[antony1969]

John52 - 2017-10-25 11:04 AM

 

Just copy and paste "Allies of Juncker and May clash over account of dinner" site:www.ft.com into your browser (to bypass the FT paywall) and scroll to the most recommended comment (lol)

 

Can you do it for me , I can't and maybe you could post it on here ... Might be easier for others on here to see what you mean too ... I know you will as your that kind of guy

[antony1969]

John52 - 2017-10-25 11:02 AM

 

antony1969 - 2017-10-25 10:40 AM

 

John52 - 2017-10-25 10:34 AM

 

RogerC - 2017-10-22 9:43 PM

Although I agree with the current situation vis a vis the HoL

So even you can't defend the House of Lords in a 'Democracy'

But the only one who might stop making it worse, and do something about it, is Jeremy Corbyn.

Which is why the Establishment is running smear campaigns against him.

 

A smear campaign suggests numerous lies by those in power or organisations against Mr Corbyn wether that be in spoken or the written word ... Might be good if you could post a few examples of those lies to validate your point otherwise it's just hot air

 

Quite remarkable that you can't see it without me spelling it out.

 

If it's so remarkable it will be really easy for you to post those examples won't it ... Waiting

[Violet1956]

John52 - 2017-10-25 11:04 AM

 

Just copy and paste "Allies of Juncker and May clash over account of dinner" site:www.ft.com into your browser (to bypass the FT paywall) and scroll to the most recommended comment (lol)

 

All the comments were worth reading John thanks for the link. Jokerman's was definitely the best for humour. But remember these are just people that read the FT, they have no crystal ball.

 

(lol) *-)

[Brian Kirby]

antony1969 - 2017-10-24 2:07 PM

 

Brian Kirby - 2017-10-24 1:34 PM

 

antony1969 - 2017-10-24 6:32 AM.........................Wonder how much "forfeiting a bit more national independence" is acceptable to Brian ... He's already said we could have referendum after referendum every 16 months as opinions change and opinions over how big a "bit" is differs too I'm sure ... I gotta feeling Brians bit is much bigger than mine 8-)

See my post below above in response to Roger, Antony.

 

You seem to have skimmed my earlier post on referendums, but hot to have read it. There is no mention of 16 months, only of the flawed logic of referendums as a way to determine government policy on the basis of public opinion.

 

However, I guess the bit of national independence I'd forfeit in exchange for advantage elsewhere would be bigger than yours, because you'd be so focused on the loss, you'd lose sight of any conceivable advantage! :-D

 

My apologies ... A quick look on the other 9 page EU thread has you down as agreeing to referendums every 2 years not 16 months as I earlier said ... What's 6 months between friends ... Regarding the size of the bit you've not said how big that bit might be but by your answer I guess it could well grow into a humongous chunk

Ahem! Actual quote warning!!!! :-D

 

Brian Kirby - 2017-10-17 11:38 AM

 

antony1969 - 2017-10-16 4:35 PM...........................So if as Barry suggests we now need another referendum because the mood has changed and remain would now win , if that happened and in another 2 years the mood swung back to leave does that mean we'd have another referendum and so on and so on till the end of time ?

Well, that's what happens with governments, isn't it? So, why not, if people aren't given the information to allow them to decide what they actually want to do? That is the flaw in legislating by referendum.

 

Of course, we could always develop an okey-cokey relationship with the EU - in out, in out, shake it all about. In this week, out next, undecided the week after. :-D Or could we?......................

 

So, not "agreeing to", as you state, but pointing out that once you accept the logic of public opinion, as reflected through referendums, directing government policy, you logically have also to accept further referendums will be necessary to test if public opinion has changed. As I said elsewhere, live by the referendum, die by the referendum. Democratically, how could it be otherwise?

 

As also quoted above, I added: "That is the flaw in legislating by referendum". Saying something is flawed, is hardly the endorsement your mis-representation claims it to be, is it?

 

Wasn't my dislike of referendums in general (at whatever frequency), clear from: "Of course, we could always develop an okey-cokey relationship with the EU - in out, in out, shake it all about. In this week, out next, undecided the week after. :-D Or could we?"

 

I'm beginning to feel a bit like the man who follows the horseguards with a dustpan an brush - to pick up the manure dropped by the horses! :-D

[RogerC]

John52 - 2017-10-25 10:34 AM

RogerC - 2017-10-22 9:43 PMAlthough I agree with the current situation vis a vis the HoL

So even you can't defend the House of Lords in a 'Democracy' But the only one who might stop making it worse, and do something about it, is Jeremy Corbyn.Which is why the Establishment is running smear campaigns against him.

No John.....not 'even me' can defend what the politicians, of all parties, have turned into a cronyist reward system of the worst kind.

And I do mean all parties.  They are all guilty of using placements as rewards and to tip the political bias where possible and I see no reason to accept that a Corbin led government would do any different.

[RogerC]

Barryd999 - 2017-10-24 11:47 PM

Archiesgrandad - 2017-10-24 9:21 PMI can't be bothered to read through all this stuff, over and over again. If someone starts a new thread it is quickly hijacked by those who aren't prepared to hold their counsel until we at least start to have some feedback from the negotiators on the direction in which they are moving. You are merely expressing own opinions, and it really is difficult to see what you can possibly know that might inform those opinions, apart from prejudice and a high degree of misunderstanding of whatever information you seek out to justify your claims. We are all entitled to think and say/write whatever we want, subject to the not unreasonable restraints that apply to us all within our society, and being wrong or ill informed is definately allowed, it's just your reputation that might be in jeopardy.What I cannot begin to understand is why so many of you have apparently no idea how much more difficult you make these negotiations whilst we have this constant tsunami of negative comment from the minority whose views did not prevail.Unless you believe that it would be better to face the most disastrous outcome that the Franco/German axis might choose to impose on us rather than allow the government to negotiate with the obvious support of us all and thereby bring the EU to a new and better way of dealing with us, then for all our sakes rethink your strategy. We have been promised that we will get to vote on the final agreement, so unless your actual motivation is anarchy and the breakdown of our society, Syria is probably a good example of how this works out, and I'm sure neither you or I want that, then let our democracy prevail and at least keep your own counsel until we know something.There are some 190 odd nation states recognised by the UN, and only 27 of them are part of the EU/ Within the EU there are several countries which are near basket cases and for the time being they are being propped up by the EU. Several more have only recently started to move into the First world community and are being propped up by the EU. Another group are besieged by separatist movements on various grounds and are a cause of great concern to the EU. The EU wants us to be tied to them because we are a wealthy country and we buy lots of things from them and are not very good at insisting that they buy their fair share from us in return.The other 160 odd countries seem to manage reasonably well without being in the EU and I can't think of any reason why the UK might be different.Please, wait and see what we are asked to accept and let the negotiators do their job. AGD

The only reason Parliament and possibly the people may get any say in the final deal is because of the millions of people who have applied pressure or in the case of Gina Miller took the government to court. Had everyone just sulked off the day after the referendum and said nothing which oddly most Brexiteers seemed to think is how politics works then I suspect there would have been no chance of parliament or the people getting any further say. There has been a constant attempt by the Brexiteers to silence those who are apposed to Brexit or want to see us get the best deal possible. Calling us Whingers, bad losers, remoaners and a whole host of derogatory names. What they fail to understand is politics and democracy does not work like that. Things change, peoples opinions change, new facts are revealed. Of course it needs constant scrutiny and discussion.

From what I have seen it is the remain camp which is having a difficult time in dealing with the 'out' vote.  It is they who are prophesying doom and gloom not the 'out' camp.  I don't see 'out' voters clamouring for a 'bad deal' or as you put it ".......attempt to silence those opposed to Brexit or want to see us get the best deal possible".

As far as I can see the out camp is solidly behind getting out of the EU 'with' the best deal possible so I fail to see any substance to your claim.

Lastly you seem to know a lot about how most of almost 17,500,000 people think and what they/we fail to understand.   Boy oh boy is that ever arrogant.

Still it does go a long way to explaining just how the owners of 'The Crystal Ball of Certainty' feel about those who would disagree with them or indeed dare to be so bold as to question their 'we know' attitude. 

[RogerC]

John52 - 2017-10-25 10:39 AM

pelmetman - 2017-10-25 9:36 AMGood old Blighty confounds the doom mongers again >:-) ..........http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-41747940Interest rates going up next month methinks B-) ......

Just subtract GDP from the real inflation rate and you might see why the National Debt is still growingThe only statistic that matters is the Current Account Deficit, but they don't like to talk about that *-)

To us mere mortals that is likely to be true.  However manipulating figures/statistics is the name of the game for all political parties so I fail to see the relevance of your post.

However as you brought up the issue of what 'they don't like to talk about' I have to give the last Labour government credit for actually talking about it....well not really talking about it per se but acknowledging the problem they helped create:

https://i.guim.co.uk/img/static/sys-images/Observer/Columnist/Columnists/2015/5/9/1431166986482/David-Cameron-brandishes--008.jpg?w=700&q=55&auto=format&usm=12&fit=max&s=097318057ef24d496165cb5cf7cf7226

.....and I really consider that if Corbyn and his motley crew get into office we will soon be right back there again.

[John52]

antony1969 - 2017-10-25 12:13 PM

 

John52 - 2017-10-25 11:04 AM

 

Just copy and paste "Allies of Juncker and May clash over account of dinner" site:www.ft.com into your browser (to bypass the FT paywall) and scroll to the most recommended comment (lol)

 

Can you do it for me , I can't and maybe you could post it on here ... Might be easier for others on here to see what you mean too ... I know you will as your that kind of guy

 

I can't do that because it would be a breach of copyright

But if you copy and paste the line below

"Allies of Juncker and May clash over account of dinner" site:www.ft.com

into your browser - the web page in the top of the screen it will bring up a page where you can click on the story on the FT site and read it there.

(You may have to clear your cookies if it doesn't work)

 

[antony1969]

John52 - 2017-10-25 2:03 PM

 

antony1969 - 2017-10-25 12:13 PM

 

John52 - 2017-10-25 11:04 AM

 

Just copy and paste "Allies of Juncker and May clash over account of dinner" site:www.ft.com into your browser (to bypass the FT paywall) and scroll to the most recommended comment (lol)

 

Can you do it for me , I can't and maybe you could post it on here ... Might be easier for others on here to see what you mean too ... I know you will as your that kind of guy

 

I can't do that because it would be a breach of copyright

But if you copy and paste the line below

"Allies of Juncker and May clash over account of dinner" site:www.ft.com

into your browser - the web page in the top of the screen it will bring up a page where you can click on the story on the FT site and read it there.

(You may have to clear your cookies if it doesn't work)

 

Seems a pretty long winded carry on to me ... If I do it will explain all about the smear campaign against Corbyn will it ???

[Barryd999]

antony1969 - 2017-10-25 8:52 AM

 

Barryd999 - 2017-10-25 8:22 AM

 

antony1969 - 2017-10-25 6:46 AM

 

Barryd999 - 2017-10-24 11:47 PM

 

Archiesgrandad - 2017-10-24 9:21 PM

 

I can't be bothered to read through all this stuff, over and over again. If someone starts a new thread it is quickly hijacked by those who aren't prepared to hold their counsel until we at least start to have some feedback from the negotiators on the direction in which they are moving. You are merely expressing own opinions, and it really is difficult to see what you can possibly know that might inform those opinions, apart from prejudice and a high degree of misunderstanding of whatever information you seek out to justify your claims.

We are all entitled to think and say/write whatever we want, subject to the not unreasonable restraints that apply to us all within our society, and being wrong or ill informed is definately allowed, it's just your reputation that might be in jeopardy.

What I cannot begin to understand is why so many of you have apparently no idea how much more difficult you make these negotiations whilst we have this constant tsunami of negative comment from the minority whose views did not prevail.Unless you believe that it would be better to face the most disastrous outcome that the Franco/German axis might choose to impose on us rather than allow the government to negotiate with the obvious support of us all and thereby bring the EU to a new and better way of dealing with us, then for all our sakes rethink your strategy. We have been promised that we will get to vote on the final agreement, so unless your actual motivation is anarchy and the breakdown of our society, Syria is probably a good example of how this works out, and I'm sure neither you or I want that, then let our democracy prevail and at least keep your own counsel until we know something.

There are some 190 odd nation states recognised by the UN, and only 27 of them are part of the EU/ Within the EU there are several countries which are near basket cases and for the time being they are being propped up by the EU. Several more have only recently started to move into the First world community and are being propped up by the EU. Another group are besieged by separatist movements on various grounds and are a cause of great concern to the EU. The EU wants us to be tied to them because we are a wealthy country and we buy lots of things from them and are not very good at insisting that they buy their fair share from us in return.

The other 160 odd countries seem to manage reasonably well without being in the EU and I can't think of any reason why the UK might be different.

 

Please, wait and see what we are asked to accept and let the negotiators do their job.

 

AGD

 

The only reason Parliament and possibly the people may get any say in the final deal is because of the millions of people who have applied pressure or in the case of Gina Miller took the government to court. Had everyone just sulked off the day after the referendum and said nothing which oddly most Brexiteers seemed to think is how politics works then I suspect there would have been no chance of parliament or the people getting any further say.

 

There has been a constant attempt by the Brexiteers to silence those who are apposed to Brexit or want to see us get the best deal possible. Calling us Whingers, bad losers, remoaners and a whole host of derogatory names. What they fail to understand is politics and democracy does not work like that. Things change, peoples opinions change, new facts are revealed. Of course it needs constant scrutiny and discussion.

 

Think most leave voters understand totally how democracy works even if they are of low intelligence , easily conned , easily duped , racist , Alf Garnett types , little Englanders and so on and so on as many remain voters have called us ... Just like the lies and untruths throughout the campaign Barry on both sides so has the name calling been ... Folk in glass houses and all that

 

I agree the name calling is wearing a bit thin now but if they understand how democracy works why has there constantly been an attempt to silence those who voted remain? The attitude in the early days especially after the referendum was one of surprise that the remainers had the audacity to say anything at all. Almost like because we lost the referendum we should have no say in the shape of things to come.

 

I dont remember any lies told by the remain side by the way, just predictions that may or may not come true. Leave however. *-)

 

Who's constantly tried to silence remain voters and how ??? ... I predict your going to stop using your crystal ball to tell us what you predict a Brexit future will look like ... You know like all predictions they may or may not come true

 

WT actual F!!! :D. Come on! All we have heard since June last year is "you lost" etc, stop trying to spoil our Brexit! It was almost like because we "lost" only the leavers should have a say in what happens next. How many posts have we seen about us talking it down etc? Oh and let's not forget the disgusting "enemies of the people headline" and the bile, tantrums, death and rape threats that came out of that one just because someone attempted to restore order and democracy!

 

Good grief man! fruitcake!

[RogerC]

Barryd999 - 2017-10-25 3:22 PM

antony1969 - 2017-10-25 8:52 AM

Barryd999 - 2017-10-25 8:22 AM

antony1969 - 2017-10-25 6:46 AM

Barryd999 - 2017-10-24 11:47 PM

Archiesgrandad - 2017-10-24 9:21 PMI can't be bothered to read through all this stuff, over and over again. If someone starts a new thread it is quickly hijacked by those who aren't prepared to hold their counsel until we at least start to have some feedback from the negotiators on the direction in which they are moving. You are merely expressing own opinions, and it really is difficult to see what you can possibly know that might inform those opinions, apart from prejudice and a high degree of misunderstanding of whatever information you seek out to justify your claims. We are all entitled to think and say/write whatever we want, subject to the not unreasonable restraints that apply to us all within our society, and being wrong or ill informed is definately allowed, it's just your reputation that might be in jeopardy.What I cannot begin to understand is why so many of you have apparently no idea how much more difficult you make these negotiations whilst we have this constant tsunami of negative comment from the minority whose views did not prevail.Unless you believe that it would be better to face the most disastrous outcome that the Franco/German axis might choose to impose on us rather than allow the government to negotiate with the obvious support of us all and thereby bring the EU to a new and better way of dealing with us, then for all our sakes rethink your strategy. We have been promised that we will get to vote on the final agreement, so unless your actual motivation is anarchy and the breakdown of our society, Syria is probably a good example of how this works out, and I'm sure neither you or I want that, then let our democracy prevail and at least keep your own counsel until we know something.There are some 190 odd nation states recognised by the UN, and only 27 of them are part of the EU/ Within the EU there are several countries which are near basket cases and for the time being they are being propped up by the EU. Several more have only recently started to move into the First world community and are being propped up by the EU. Another group are besieged by separatist movements on various grounds and are a cause of great concern to the EU. The EU wants us to be tied to them because we are a wealthy country and we buy lots of things from them and are not very good at insisting that they buy their fair share from us in return.The other 160 odd countries seem to manage reasonably well without being in the EU and I can't think of any reason why the UK might be different.Please, wait and see what we are asked to accept and let the negotiators do their job. AGD

The only reason Parliament and possibly the people may get any say in the final deal is because of the millions of people who have applied pressure or in the case of Gina Miller took the government to court. Had everyone just sulked off the day after the referendum and said nothing which oddly most Brexiteers seemed to think is how politics works then I suspect there would have been no chance of parliament or the people getting any further say. There has been a constant attempt by the Brexiteers to silence those who are apposed to Brexit or want to see us get the best deal possible. Calling us Whingers, bad losers, remoaners and a whole host of derogatory names. What they fail to understand is politics and democracy does not work like that. Things change, peoples opinions change, new facts are revealed. Of course it needs constant scrutiny and discussion.

Think most leave voters understand totally how democracy works even if they are of low intelligence , easily conned , easily duped , racist , Alf Garnett types , little Englanders and so on and so on as many remain voters have called us ... Just like the lies and untruths throughout the campaign Barry on both sides so has the name calling been ... Folk in glass houses and all that

I agree the name calling is wearing a bit thin now but if they understand how democracy works why has there constantly been an attempt to silence those who voted remain? The attitude in the early days especially after the referendum was one of surprise that the remainers had the audacity to say anything at all. Almost like because we lost the referendum we should have no say in the shape of things to come.I dont remember any lies told by the remain side by the way, just predictions that may or may not come true. Leave however. *-)

Who's constantly tried to silence remain voters and how ??? ... I predict your going to stop using your crystal ball to tell us what you predict a Brexit future will look like ... You know like all predictions they may or may not come true

WT actual F!!! :D. Come on! All we have heard since June last year is "you lost" etc, stop trying to spoil our Brexit! It was almost like because we "lost" only the leavers should have a say in what happens next. How many posts have we seen about us talking it down etc? Oh and let's not forget the disgusting "enemies of the people headline" and the bile, tantrums, death and rape threats that came out of that one just because someone attempted to restore order and democracy! Good grief man! fruitcake!

It is clear to a blind man that the remain camp has been talking UK Plc down ever since the referendum result was known.  They/you et al have done nothing but predict doom and gloom and spout 'we know' comments as if you/they really do 'know' what the future holds.  It really is quite boring.

Instead of the remain camp going on and on about stolen futures, take us back in, doom and gloom comments it would help to strengthen your case if something 'positive' was offered instead of considering us 'cast unto the wilderness' outside of the EU.

Bottom line 'Mr WT actual F' is if the remain camp offered something helpful instead of doing everything it can to put a spoke in the negotiators wheels there would, one hopes, be much less acrimonious feeling.

P.S.  The name calling, threats etc etc....all those regrettable issues have come not from just the 'out' camp but also the 'remain' and undecided elements of society, all of which unfortunately contain individuals of questionable standards and judgement.

[Brian Kirby]

Archiesgrandad - 2017-10-24 9:21 PM..................................

1 If someone starts a new thread it is quickly hijacked by those who aren't prepared to hold their counsel until we at least start to have some feedback from the negotiators on the direction in which they are moving. You are merely expressing own opinions, and it really is difficult to see what you can possibly know that might inform those opinions, apart from prejudice and a high degree of misunderstanding of whatever information you seek out to justify your claims.......................................

 

2 What I cannot begin to understand is why so many of you have apparently no idea how much more difficult you make these negotiations whilst we have this constant tsunami of negative comment from the minority whose views did not prevail. Unless you believe that it would be better to face the most disastrous outcome that the Franco/German axis might choose to impose on us rather than allow the government to negotiate with the obvious support of us all and thereby bring the EU to a new and better way of dealing with us, then for all our sakes rethink your strategy.

 

3 We have been promised that we will get to vote on the final agreement, ..............................

 

4 The EU wants us to be tied to them because we are a wealthy country and we buy lots of things from them and are not very good at insisting that they buy their fair share from us in return.

 

5 The other 160 odd countries seem to manage reasonably well without being in the EU and I can't think of any reason why the UK might be different.

 

6 Please, wait and see what we are asked to accept and let the negotiators do their job. AGD

1 Of course we are expressing opinions, AGD. Aren't you? The essence of your point seems to be that we have made a decision (ill-judged, IMO), so we should all wait to see how it pans out before criticising it. The great problem with that is the Titanic. Icebergs ahead? Wait and see, the ship is unsinkable. Oh, that iceberg, and oh no, it isn't unsinkable! That is not the mindset of the skipper I want in charge of my country. So, I say so.

 

2 So what are those of us who think a great mistake is being made supposed to do? Keep quiet? Why; is it not our country as well? Are we supposed to watch in silence as the Brexit brigade cripple it? Before the referendum many of us who thought leaving would be a mistake said it would prove far more difficult than the Brexiters claimed. We were dismissed for peddling project fear. Now, Lordy, Lordy, the Brexiters are saying the negotiations are really, really difficult. Well, bu**er me! Told you so, comes to mind! Do you really think our opinions come as a surprise to the EU, when they were in plain sight the day the referendum result was announced.

 

3 Oh? Chapter and verse, please. The only party promising that is the Liberal Democrats. To my knowledge, they are not currently in a position to deliver on their promise.

 

4 Do explain. How, exactly, do we insist "that they buy their fair share from us in return"? We don't buy from EU countries out of some sense of pity for them, or because we think it is "only fair play". We buy from them because they make things we want, at prices we can afford, of a quality we find acceptable. Were we to follow their lead, we should have no need to try to "insist" they buy from us in preference to buying elsewhere. Is that to be our ticket to economic salvation? "I say my man, you really have to buy more widgets from the UK, because we buy more widgets from you than you buy from us?" Seriously?

 

5 It depends what you mean by "managing reasonably well". This link shows international rankings by per capita GDP. http://tinyurl.com/l4zdx28 That should give an indication of how well off the average Joe could reasonably expect to be - though I very much doubt Joe's experience actually matches the pattern of the tables. However, the position of the United Kingdom in each table is interesting, and who is ranked higher, and who lower. Whether the tables give grounds for the Brexiters' optimism about our likely future outside the EU will largely depend on how rose tinted yer specs are! :-D

 

6 Oh no! What, wait and see if we're foisted with a pig in a poke by politicians who funked the decision they were elected to make? The referendum was purely the result of the UKIP tail wagging the Conservative dog. UKIP was able to do that only because the Conservative party could not reach an agreed position on EU membership. The Labour party had the same dilemma, so abrogated its responsibility to act as Her Majesty's loyal opposition. Both agreed, spoken or unspoken, that it was better to turn the decision over to the public, than to expose the rifts in their respective parties. Both parties remain riven, and are now too shame-faced to admit the referendum was the wrong path. And these are the political institutions we are now to (silently!) rely opon to take us forward to a glorious future trading around the world. Well, you can keep quiet while the driver sleeps at the wheel approaching a cliff edge, but I'm damned if I will.

 

I'm with Dylan! :-D

 

Do not go gentle into that good night,

Old age should burn and rage at close of day;

Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

[antony1969]

Barryd999 - 2017-10-25 3:22 PM

 

antony1969 - 2017-10-25 8:52 AM

 

Barryd999 - 2017-10-25 8:22 AM

 

antony1969 - 2017-10-25 6:46 AM

 

Barryd999 - 2017-10-24 11:47 PM

 

Archiesgrandad - 2017-10-24 9:21 PM

 

I can't be bothered to read through all this stuff, over and over again. If someone starts a new thread it is quickly hijacked by those who aren't prepared to hold their counsel until we at least start to have some feedback from the negotiators on the direction in which they are moving. You are merely expressing own opinions, and it really is difficult to see what you can possibly know that might inform those opinions, apart from prejudice and a high degree of misunderstanding of whatever information you seek out to justify your claims.

We are all entitled to think and say/write whatever we want, subject to the not unreasonable restraints that apply to us all within our society, and being wrong or ill informed is definately allowed, it's just your reputation that might be in jeopardy.

What I cannot begin to understand is why so many of you have apparently no idea how much more difficult you make these negotiations whilst we have this constant tsunami of negative comment from the minority whose views did not prevail.Unless you believe that it would be better to face the most disastrous outcome that the Franco/German axis might choose to impose on us rather than allow the government to negotiate with the obvious support of us all and thereby bring the EU to a new and better way of dealing with us, then for all our sakes rethink your strategy. We have been promised that we will get to vote on the final agreement, so unless your actual motivation is anarchy and the breakdown of our society, Syria is probably a good example of how this works out, and I'm sure neither you or I want that, then let our democracy prevail and at least keep your own counsel until we know something.

There are some 190 odd nation states recognised by the UN, and only 27 of them are part of the EU/ Within the EU there are several countries which are near basket cases and for the time being they are being propped up by the EU. Several more have only recently started to move into the First world community and are being propped up by the EU. Another group are besieged by separatist movements on various grounds and are a cause of great concern to the EU. The EU wants us to be tied to them because we are a wealthy country and we buy lots of things from them and are not very good at insisting that they buy their fair share from us in return.

The other 160 odd countries seem to manage reasonably well without being in the EU and I can't think of any reason why the UK might be different.

 

Please, wait and see what we are asked to accept and let the negotiators do their job.

 

AGD

 

The only reason Parliament and possibly the people may get any say in the final deal is because of the millions of people who have applied pressure or in the case of Gina Miller took the government to court. Had everyone just sulked off the day after the referendum and said nothing which oddly most Brexiteers seemed to think is how politics works then I suspect there would have been no chance of parliament or the people getting any further say.

 

There has been a constant attempt by the Brexiteers to silence those who are apposed to Brexit or want to see us get the best deal possible. Calling us Whingers, bad losers, remoaners and a whole host of derogatory names. What they fail to understand is politics and democracy does not work like that. Things change, peoples opinions change, new facts are revealed. Of course it needs constant scrutiny and discussion.

 

Think most leave voters understand totally how democracy works even if they are of low intelligence , easily conned , easily duped , racist , Alf Garnett types , little Englanders and so on and so on as many remain voters have called us ... Just like the lies and untruths throughout the campaign Barry on both sides so has the name calling been ... Folk in glass houses and all that

 

I agree the name calling is wearing a bit thin now but if they understand how democracy works why has there constantly been an attempt to silence those who voted remain? The attitude in the early days especially after the referendum was one of surprise that the remainers had the audacity to say anything at all. Almost like because we lost the referendum we should have no say in the shape of things to come.

 

I dont remember any lies told by the remain side by the way, just predictions that may or may not come true. Leave however. *-)

 

Who's constantly tried to silence remain voters and how ??? ... I predict your going to stop using your crystal ball to tell us what you predict a Brexit future will look like ... You know like all predictions they may or may not come true

 

WT actual F!!! :D. Come on! All we have heard since June last year is "you lost" etc, stop trying to spoil our Brexit! It was almost like because we "lost" only the leavers should have a say in what happens next. How many posts have we seen about us talking it down etc? Oh and let's not forget the disgusting "enemies of the people headline" and the bile, tantrums, death and rape threats that came out of that one just because someone attempted to restore order and democracy!

 

Good grief man! fruitcake!

 

Im not sure that such aggressive language is needed ... Im actually a little shaken by that and slightly fearful for my safety by replying but here goes ... Regarding your since June last year all we've heard from you and the remainers is how us dunce leave voters have been conned , duped and how we won't get what we want blah blah blah ... Isn't it obvious your going to get a little in return when you insinuate were all dummies ... Regarding the death and rape threats I presume by your previous posts (not on here) that your quite open to someone taking out Sir Donald Trump and ending his days but Gina Miller your a little more concerned over ... Personally I would say if anyone has threatened her they should feel the full force of the law ... Without looking I think 1 person up to press has faced charges , maybe you can say otherwise ... Regards your friend

[Barryd999]

antony1969 - 2017-10-25 5:18 PM

 

Barryd999 - 2017-10-25 3:22 PM

 

antony1969 - 2017-10-25 8:52 AM

 

Barryd999 - 2017-10-25 8:22 AM

 

antony1969 - 2017-10-25 6:46 AM

 

Barryd999 - 2017-10-24 11:47 PM

 

Archiesgrandad - 2017-10-24 9:21 PM

 

I can't be bothered to read through all this stuff, over and over again. If someone starts a new thread it is quickly hijacked by those who aren't prepared to hold their counsel until we at least start to have some feedback from the negotiators on the direction in which they are moving. You are merely expressing own opinions, and it really is difficult to see what you can possibly know that might inform those opinions, apart from prejudice and a high degree of misunderstanding of whatever information you seek out to justify your claims.

We are all entitled to think and say/write whatever we want, subject to the not unreasonable restraints that apply to us all within our society, and being wrong or ill informed is definately allowed, it's just your reputation that might be in jeopardy.

What I cannot begin to understand is why so many of you have apparently no idea how much more difficult you make these negotiations whilst we have this constant tsunami of negative comment from the minority whose views did not prevail.Unless you believe that it would be better to face the most disastrous outcome that the Franco/German axis might choose to impose on us rather than allow the government to negotiate with the obvious support of us all and thereby bring the EU to a new and better way of dealing with us, then for all our sakes rethink your strategy. We have been promised that we will get to vote on the final agreement, so unless your actual motivation is anarchy and the breakdown of our society, Syria is probably a good example of how this works out, and I'm sure neither you or I want that, then let our democracy prevail and at least keep your own counsel until we know something.

There are some 190 odd nation states recognised by the UN, and only 27 of them are part of the EU/ Within the EU there are several countries which are near basket cases and for the time being they are being propped up by the EU. Several more have only recently started to move into the First world community and are being propped up by the EU. Another group are besieged by separatist movements on various grounds and are a cause of great concern to the EU. The EU wants us to be tied to them because we are a wealthy country and we buy lots of things from them and are not very good at insisting that they buy their fair share from us in return.

The other 160 odd countries seem to manage reasonably well without being in the EU and I can't think of any reason why the UK might be different.

 

Please, wait and see what we are asked to accept and let the negotiators do their job.

 

AGD

 

The only reason Parliament and possibly the people may get any say in the final deal is because of the millions of people who have applied pressure or in the case of Gina Miller took the government to court. Had everyone just sulked off the day after the referendum and said nothing which oddly most Brexiteers seemed to think is how politics works then I suspect there would have been no chance of parliament or the people getting any further say.

 

There has been a constant attempt by the Brexiteers to silence those who are apposed to Brexit or want to see us get the best deal possible. Calling us Whingers, bad losers, remoaners and a whole host of derogatory names. What they fail to understand is politics and democracy does not work like that. Things change, peoples opinions change, new facts are revealed. Of course it needs constant scrutiny and discussion.

 

Think most leave voters understand totally how democracy works even if they are of low intelligence , easily conned , easily duped , racist , Alf Garnett types , little Englanders and so on and so on as many remain voters have called us ... Just like the lies and untruths throughout the campaign Barry on both sides so has the name calling been ... Folk in glass houses and all that

 

I agree the name calling is wearing a bit thin now but if they understand how democracy works why has there constantly been an attempt to silence those who voted remain? The attitude in the early days especially after the referendum was one of surprise that the remainers had the audacity to say anything at all. Almost like because we lost the referendum we should have no say in the shape of things to come.

 

I dont remember any lies told by the remain side by the way, just predictions that may or may not come true. Leave however. *-)

 

Who's constantly tried to silence remain voters and how ??? ... I predict your going to stop using your crystal ball to tell us what you predict a Brexit future will look like ... You know like all predictions they may or may not come true

 

WT actual F!!! :D. Come on! All we have heard since June last year is "you lost" etc, stop trying to spoil our Brexit! It was almost like because we "lost" only the leavers should have a say in what happens next. How many posts have we seen about us talking it down etc? Oh and let's not forget the disgusting "enemies of the people headline" and the bile, tantrums, death and rape threats that came out of that one just because someone attempted to restore order and democracy!

 

Good grief man! fruitcake!

 

Im not sure that such aggressive language is needed ... Im actually a little shaken by that and slightly fearful for my safety by replying but here goes ... Regarding your since June last year all we've heard from you and the remainers is how us dunce leave voters have been conned , duped and how we won't get what we want blah blah blah ... Isn't it obvious your going to get a little in return when you insinuate were all dummies ... Regarding the death and rape threats I presume by your previous posts (not on here) that your quite open to someone taking out Sir Donald Trump and ending his days but Gina Miller your a little more concerned over ... Personally I would say if anyone has threatened her they should feel the full force of the law ... Without looking I think 1 person up to press has faced charges , maybe you can say otherwise ... Regards your friend

 

Whoa!!! Whoa! I never said I was open to somebody whacking the Donald (on another forum). I said I was surprised nobody had tried to pop a cap in him. :D There is a difference. As you know only too well ;-) Im a lover not a fighter. :D I would never condone bumping someone off and if I saw Farage in the street and ran him over it would only be because my foot slipped off the brake. Probably.

 

Now you also know I have never called any of you stupid. Well as much as you have never tried to silence us remainers of course. I do think people were conned though. That doesnt mean they are all necessarily stupid but lets face it some of them are. Very. Maybe we should have a youtube competition to find the dumbest remainers and the dumbest Brexiteers. Whos up for that? :D

[Barryd999]

RogerC - 2017-10-25 3:53 PM

Barryd999 - 2017-10-25 3:22 PM

antony1969 - 2017-10-25 8:52 AM

Barryd999 - 2017-10-25 8:22 AM

antony1969 - 2017-10-25 6:46 AM

Barryd999 - 2017-10-24 11:47 PM

Archiesgrandad - 2017-10-24 9:21 PMI can't be bothered to read through all this stuff, over and over again. If someone starts a new thread it is quickly hijacked by those who aren't prepared to hold their counsel until we at least start to have some feedback from the negotiators on the direction in which they are moving. You are merely expressing own opinions, and it really is difficult to see what you can possibly know that might inform those opinions, apart from prejudice and a high degree of misunderstanding of whatever information you seek out to justify your claims. We are all entitled to think and say/write whatever we want, subject to the not unreasonable restraints that apply to us all within our society, and being wrong or ill informed is definately allowed, it's just your reputation that might be in jeopardy.What I cannot begin to understand is why so many of you have apparently no idea how much more difficult you make these negotiations whilst we have this constant tsunami of negative comment from the minority whose views did not prevail.Unless you believe that it would be better to face the most disastrous outcome that the Franco/German axis might choose to impose on us rather than allow the government to negotiate with the obvious support of us all and thereby bring the EU to a new and better way of dealing with us, then for all our sakes rethink your strategy. We have been promised that we will get to vote on the final agreement, so unless your actual motivation is anarchy and the breakdown of our society, Syria is probably a good example of how this works out, and I'm sure neither you or I want that, then let our democracy prevail and at least keep your own counsel until we know something.There are some 190 odd nation states recognised by the UN, and only 27 of them are part of the EU/ Within the EU there are several countries which are near basket cases and for the time being they are being propped up by the EU. Several more have only recently started to move into the First world community and are being propped up by the EU. Another group are besieged by separatist movements on various grounds and are a cause of great concern to the EU. The EU wants us to be tied to them because we are a wealthy country and we buy lots of things from them and are not very good at insisting that they buy their fair share from us in return.The other 160 odd countries seem to manage reasonably well without being in the EU and I can't think of any reason why the UK might be different.Please, wait and see what we are asked to accept and let the negotiators do their job. AGD

The only reason Parliament and possibly the people may get any say in the final deal is because of the millions of people who have applied pressure or in the case of Gina Miller took the government to court. Had everyone just sulked off the day after the referendum and said nothing which oddly most Brexiteers seemed to think is how politics works then I suspect there would have been no chance of parliament or the people getting any further say. There has been a constant attempt by the Brexiteers to silence those who are apposed to Brexit or want to see us get the best deal possible. Calling us Whingers, bad losers, remoaners and a whole host of derogatory names. What they fail to understand is politics and democracy does not work like that. Things change, peoples opinions change, new facts are revealed. Of course it needs constant scrutiny and discussion.

Think most leave voters understand totally how democracy works even if they are of low intelligence , easily conned , easily duped , racist , Alf Garnett types , little Englanders and so on and so on as many remain voters have called us ... Just like the lies and untruths throughout the campaign Barry on both sides so has the name calling been ... Folk in glass houses and all that

I agree the name calling is wearing a bit thin now but if they understand how democracy works why has there constantly been an attempt to silence those who voted remain? The attitude in the early days especially after the referendum was one of surprise that the remainers had the audacity to say anything at all. Almost like because we lost the referendum we should have no say in the shape of things to come.I dont remember any lies told by the remain side by the way, just predictions that may or may not come true. Leave however. *-)

Who's constantly tried to silence remain voters and how ??? ... I predict your going to stop using your crystal ball to tell us what you predict a Brexit future will look like ... You know like all predictions they may or may not come true

WT actual F!!! :D. Come on! All we have heard since June last year is "you lost" etc, stop trying to spoil our Brexit! It was almost like because we "lost" only the leavers should have a say in what happens next. How many posts have we seen about us talking it down etc? Oh and let's not forget the disgusting "enemies of the people headline" and the bile, tantrums, death and rape threats that came out of that one just because someone attempted to restore order and democracy! Good grief man! fruitcake!

It is clear to a blind man that the remain camp has been talking UK Plc down ever since the referendum result was known.  They/you et al have done nothing but predict doom and gloom and spout 'we know' comments as if you/they really do 'know' what the future holds.  It really is quite boring.

Instead of the remain camp going on and on about stolen futures, take us back in, doom and gloom comments it would help to strengthen your case if something 'positive' was offered instead of considering us 'cast unto the wilderness' outside of the EU.

Bottom line 'Mr WT actual F' is if the remain camp offered something helpful instead of doing everything it can to put a spoke in the negotiators wheels there would, one hopes, be much less acrimonious feeling.

P.S.  The name calling, threats etc etc....all those regrettable issues have come not from just the 'out' camp but also the 'remain' and undecided elements of society, all of which unfortunately contain individuals of questionable standards and judgement.

Ok then here is something positive.1. Pay up what we owe and what our contributions will be for the following2. Guarantee the rights of EU citizens and vice versa immediately3. Agree to no hard border in NI (Somehow)4. Negotiate access or as much as possible access to the Single Market5. Admit we cant possibly leave the customs union so concentrate on how we can maintain access and still leave the EU.There. No moaning just positive suggestions to how Brexit if it has to happen should be rolled out.Presumably as apparently you all want a good deal you also would want the above so lets all work towards that then.

[Guest pelmetman]

Good news for Remoaners........Your're going to get a vote on the deal ;-) .........

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

After we've left >:-) (lol) (lol) (lol) ..........

 

 

[antony1969]

Barryd999 - 2017-10-25 6:18 PM

RogerC - 2017-10-25 3:53 PM

Barryd999 - 2017-10-25 3:22 PM

antony1969 - 2017-10-25 8:52 AM

Barryd999 - 2017-10-25 8:22 AM

antony1969 - 2017-10-25 6:46 AM

Barryd999 - 2017-10-24 11:47 PM

Archiesgrandad - 2017-10-24 9:21 PMI can't be bothered to read through all this stuff, over and over again. If someone starts a new thread it is quickly hijacked by those who aren't prepared to hold their counsel until we at least start to have some feedback from the negotiators on the direction in which they are moving. You are merely expressing own opinions, and it really is difficult to see what you can possibly know that might inform those opinions, apart from prejudice and a high degree of misunderstanding of whatever information you seek out to justify your claims. We are all entitled to think and say/write whatever we want, subject to the not unreasonable restraints that apply to us all within our society, and being wrong or ill informed is definately allowed, it's just your reputation that might be in jeopardy.What I cannot begin to understand is why so many of you have apparently no idea how much more difficult you make these negotiations whilst we have this constant tsunami of negative comment from the minority whose views did not prevail.Unless you believe that it would be better to face the most disastrous outcome that the Franco/German axis might choose to impose on us rather than allow the government to negotiate with the obvious support of us all and thereby bring the EU to a new and better way of dealing with us, then for all our sakes rethink your strategy. We have been promised that we will get to vote on the final agreement, so unless your actual motivation is anarchy and the breakdown of our society, Syria is probably a good example of how this works out, and I'm sure neither you or I want that, then let our democracy prevail and at least keep your own counsel until we know something.There are some 190 odd nation states recognised by the UN, and only 27 of them are part of the EU/ Within the EU there are several countries which are near basket cases and for the time being they are being propped up by the EU. Several more have only recently started to move into the First world community and are being propped up by the EU. Another group are besieged by separatist movements on various grounds and are a cause of great concern to the EU. The EU wants us to be tied to them because we are a wealthy country and we buy lots of things from them and are not very good at insisting that they buy their fair share from us in return.The other 160 odd countries seem to manage reasonably well without being in the EU and I can't think of any reason why the UK might be different.Please, wait and see what we are asked to accept and let the negotiators do their job. AGD

The only reason Parliament and possibly the people may get any say in the final deal is because of the millions of people who have applied pressure or in the case of Gina Miller took the government to court. Had everyone just sulked off the day after the referendum and said nothing which oddly most Brexiteers seemed to think is how politics works then I suspect there would have been no chance of parliament or the people getting any further say. There has been a constant attempt by the Brexiteers to silence those who are apposed to Brexit or want to see us get the best deal possible. Calling us Whingers, bad losers, remoaners and a whole host of derogatory names. What they fail to understand is politics and democracy does not work like that. Things change, peoples opinions change, new facts are revealed. Of course it needs constant scrutiny and discussion.

Think most leave voters understand totally how democracy works even if they are of low intelligence , easily conned , easily duped , racist , Alf Garnett types , little Englanders and so on and so on as many remain voters have called us ... Just like the lies and untruths throughout the campaign Barry on both sides so has the name calling been ... Folk in glass houses and all that

I agree the name calling is wearing a bit thin now but if they understand how democracy works why has there constantly been an attempt to silence those who voted remain? The attitude in the early days especially after the referendum was one of surprise that the remainers had the audacity to say anything at all. Almost like because we lost the referendum we should have no say in the shape of things to come.I dont remember any lies told by the remain side by the way, just predictions that may or may not come true. Leave however. *-)

Who's constantly tried to silence remain voters and how ??? ... I predict your going to stop using your crystal ball to tell us what you predict a Brexit future will look like ... You know like all predictions they may or may not come true

WT actual F!!! :D. Come on! All we have heard since June last year is "you lost" etc, stop trying to spoil our Brexit! It was almost like because we "lost" only the leavers should have a say in what happens next. How many posts have we seen about us talking it down etc? Oh and let's not forget the disgusting "enemies of the people headline" and the bile, tantrums, death and rape threats that came out of that one just because someone attempted to restore order and democracy! Good grief man! fruitcake!

It is clear to a blind man that the remain camp has been talking UK Plc down ever since the referendum result was known.  They/you et al have done nothing but predict doom and gloom and spout 'we know' comments as if you/they really do 'know' what the future holds.  It really is quite boring.

Instead of the remain camp going on and on about stolen futures, take us back in, doom and gloom comments it would help to strengthen your case if something 'positive' was offered instead of considering us 'cast unto the wilderness' outside of the EU.

Bottom line 'Mr WT actual F' is if the remain camp offered something helpful instead of doing everything it can to put a spoke in the negotiators wheels there would, one hopes, be much less acrimonious feeling.

P.S.  The name calling, threats etc etc....all those regrettable issues have come not from just the 'out' camp but also the 'remain' and undecided elements of society, all of which unfortunately contain individuals of questionable standards and judgement.

Ok then here is something positive.1. Pay up what we owe and what our contributions will be for the following2. Guarantee the rights of EU citizens and vice versa immediately3. Agree to no hard border in NI (Somehow)4. Negotiate access or as much as possible access to the Single Market5. Admit we cant possibly leave the customs union so concentrate on how we can maintain access and still leave the EU.There. No moaning just positive suggestions to how Brexit if it has to happen should be rolled out.Presumably as apparently you all want a good deal you also would want the above so lets all work towards that then.

Its only taken him 16 months or so to say lets all work together ... Praise The Lord

[Brian Kirby]

What people want, surely, is a primarily good income from a rewarding job. They'd also like good education for their children; a health service that is working as it is supposed to; decent, well maintained, roads; affordable, reliable, public transport; and above all, I'd guess, access to genuinely affordable housing. The question that has to be answered is whether leaving, or remaining in, the EU makes those aspirations mere, or less, probable.

 

We used to have all of those things, and for too many of us it has largely disappeared. So, we also need to answer why that has happened, and whether its disappearance is in any way connected with our membership of the EU.

 

Much of the dissatisfaction I have heard and read with the EU is connected with the disappearance of these things, but to me, the dissatisfied have blamed the EU whereas the real blame lies elsewhere, not uncommonly (but not invariably) with the UK government. So, we are set to leave an institution that, while notably imperfect, is not the cause of the dissatisfaction many people feel. A large part of the media has been responsible for this misdirection of responsibility, ably supported by people whose motivations I profoundly mistrust. That is what I see. So, am I wrong?

[antony1969]

Brian Kirby - 2017-10-25 7:31 PM

 

What people want, surely, is a primarily good income from a rewarding job. They'd also like good education for their children; a health service that is working as it is supposed to; decent, well maintained, roads; affordable, reliable, public transport; and above all, I'd guess, access to genuinely affordable housing. The question that has to be answered is whether leaving, or remaining in, the EU makes those aspirations mere, or less, probable.

 

We used to have all of those things, and for too many of us it has largely disappeared. So, we also need to answer why that has happened, and whether its disappearance is in any way connected with our membership of the EU.

 

Much of the dissatisfaction I have heard and read with the EU is connected with the disappearance of these things, but to me, the dissatisfied have blamed the EU whereas the real blame lies elsewhere, not uncommonly (but not invariably) with the UK government. So, we are set to leave an institution that, while notably imperfect, is not the cause of the dissatisfaction many people feel. A large part of the media has been responsible for this misdirection of responsibility, ably supported by people whose motivations I profoundly mistrust. That is what I see. So, am I wrong?

 

You forgot to mention the one thing that caused many to vote leave ... Conveniently

[RogerC]

Barryd999 - 2017-10-25 6:18 PM

RogerC - 2017-10-25 3:53 PM

Barryd999 - 2017-10-25 3:22 PM

antony1969 - 2017-10-25 8:52 AM

Barryd999 - 2017-10-25 8:22 AM

antony1969 - 2017-10-25 6:46 AM

Barryd999 - 2017-10-24 11:47 PM

Archiesgrandad - 2017-10-24 9:21 PMI can't be bothered to read through all this stuff, over and over again. If someone starts a new thread it is quickly hijacked by those who aren't prepared to hold their counsel until we at least start to have some feedback from the negotiators on the direction in which they are moving. You are merely expressing own opinions, and it really is difficult to see what you can possibly know that might inform those opinions, apart from prejudice and a high degree of misunderstanding of whatever information you seek out to justify your claims. We are all entitled to think and say/write whatever we want, subject to the not unreasonable restraints that apply to us all within our society, and being wrong or ill informed is definately allowed, it's just your reputation that might be in jeopardy.What I cannot begin to understand is why so many of you have apparently no idea how much more difficult you make these negotiations whilst we have this constant tsunami of negative comment from the minority whose views did not prevail.Unless you believe that it would be better to face the most disastrous outcome that the Franco/German axis might choose to impose on us rather than allow the government to negotiate with the obvious support of us all and thereby bring the EU to a new and better way of dealing with us, then for all our sakes rethink your strategy. We have been promised that we will get to vote on the final agreement, so unless your actual motivation is anarchy and the breakdown of our society, Syria is probably a good example of how this works out, and I'm sure neither you or I want that, then let our democracy prevail and at least keep your own counsel until we know something.There are some 190 odd nation states recognised by the UN, and only 27 of them are part of the EU/ Within the EU there are several countries which are near basket cases and for the time being they are being propped up by the EU. Several more have only recently started to move into the First world community and are being propped up by the EU. Another group are besieged by separatist movements on various grounds and are a cause of great concern to the EU. The EU wants us to be tied to them because we are a wealthy country and we buy lots of things from them and are not very good at insisting that they buy their fair share from us in return.The other 160 odd countries seem to manage reasonably well without being in the EU and I can't think of any reason why the UK might be different.Please, wait and see what we are asked to accept and let the negotiators do their job. AGD

The only reason Parliament and possibly the people may get any say in the final deal is because of the millions of people who have applied pressure or in the case of Gina Miller took the government to court. Had everyone just sulked off the day after the referendum and said nothing which oddly most Brexiteers seemed to think is how politics works then I suspect there would have been no chance of parliament or the people getting any further say. There has been a constant attempt by the Brexiteers to silence those who are apposed to Brexit or want to see us get the best deal possible. Calling us Whingers, bad losers, remoaners and a whole host of derogatory names. What they fail to understand is politics and democracy does not work like that. Things change, peoples opinions change, new facts are revealed. Of course it needs constant scrutiny and discussion.

Think most leave voters understand totally how democracy works even if they are of low intelligence , easily conned , easily duped , racist , Alf Garnett types , little Englanders and so on and so on as many remain voters have called us ... Just like the lies and untruths throughout the campaign Barry on both sides so has the name calling been ... Folk in glass houses and all that

I agree the name calling is wearing a bit thin now but if they understand how democracy works why has there constantly been an attempt to silence those who voted remain? The attitude in the early days especially after the referendum was one of surprise that the remainers had the audacity to say anything at all. Almost like because we lost the referendum we should have no say in the shape of things to come.I dont remember any lies told by the remain side by the way, just predictions that may or may not come true. Leave however. *-)

Who's constantly tried to silence remain voters and how ??? ... I predict your going to stop using your crystal ball to tell us what you predict a Brexit future will look like ... You know like all predictions they may or may not come true

WT actual F!!! :D. Come on! All we have heard since June last year is "you lost" etc, stop trying to spoil our Brexit! It was almost like because we "lost" only the leavers should have a say in what happens next. How many posts have we seen about us talking it down etc? Oh and let's not forget the disgusting "enemies of the people headline" and the bile, tantrums, death and rape threats that came out of that one just because someone attempted to restore order and democracy! Good grief man! fruitcake!

It is clear to a blind man that the remain camp has been talking UK Plc down ever since the referendum result was known.  They/you et al have done nothing but predict doom and gloom and spout 'we know' comments as if you/they really do 'know' what the future holds.  It really is quite boring.

Instead of the remain camp going on and on about stolen futures, take us back in, doom and gloom comments it would help to strengthen your case if something 'positive' was offered instead of considering us 'cast unto the wilderness' outside of the EU.

Bottom line 'Mr WT actual F' is if the remain camp offered something helpful instead of doing everything it can to put a spoke in the negotiators wheels there would, one hopes, be much less acrimonious feeling.

P.S.  The name calling, threats etc etc....all those regrettable issues have come not from just the 'out' camp but also the 'remain' and undecided elements of society, all of which unfortunately contain individuals of questionable standards and judgement.

Ok then here is something positive.1. Pay up what we owe and what our contributions will be for the following2. Guarantee the rights of EU citizens and vice versa immediately3. Agree to no hard border in NI (Somehow)4. Negotiate access or as much as possible access to the Single Market5. Admit we cant possibly leave the customs union so concentrate on how we can maintain access and still leave the EU.There. No moaning just positive suggestions to how Brexit if it has to happen should be rolled out.Presumably as apparently you all want a good deal you also would want the above so lets all work towards that then.

Hurrah....positive comments which add something to the debate as opposed to the usual doom and gloom.  Thank you ...honestly it is appreciated.

Presumably/apparently! Of course we want a good deal?  So as you've clearly not noticed Sherlock that is what I/we/the remain camp have been saying all along.  Get the best deal possible for the UK in the negotiations to leave the EU.  It will not necessarily be everything we want as there will undoubtedly be hard bargaining to be undertaken but anyone who consciously accepts a 'bad' deal should be done for treason.....in my opinion.

However if the EU does play hard ball and there is no option but to just walk away then IMO that is what we should do.  Given the 'hard ball' scenario would you want to remain in a club that acted in such an intransigent, even bullying manner?

As for stupid.....I would think it safe to presume that, given the number of voters in the referendum, there are a few 'stupid' ones on either side of the divide.............so on that we agree.

As for your suggestions:

1.  I was under the impression that that topic is already well under negotiation.  As neither side can agree on a figure talks will continue.

2.  Citizens rights.  I am sure this issue has been raised as recently as the later part of September 2017 and for whatever reason neither side can agree ergo more negotiation is required.

One stumbling block I read about is:

'On citizens’ rights, the offer to give EU nationals the same rights as British citizens would leave them with fewer rights than today'.  The EU has rejected this offer.  So would you be happy with EU nationals enjoying more 'rights' than you or I or any other British national?

3. NI border question?  Well we did OK for a great many years before the removal of border controls so I see no reason why that should be an issue.  However in present circumstances  I would guess that the situation will be closely linked to whatever comes into play regarding the customs union.

4.  Clearly negotiations are in progress regarding trade and industry......they might not have got very far but as one of the foremost questions I am certain it will have been considered and will be negotiated.

5. Why can we not leave the customs union?  Other countries do quite well thank you very much being outside it.  

What I would say is despite the fact that you or I or any of the other contributors to this forum can clearly come up with suggestions, I would anticipate that all government departments with issues and concerns, questions and desires will be more than capable of coming to appropriate conclusions themselves.

So you offered 5 points, all of which I feel are in the process of being negotiated, or are to be negotiated.  We clearly don't have answers as yet but these things take time especially with both parties looking to secure the best deal for their side.  

[RogerC]

Brian Kirby - 2017-10-25 7:31 PMWhat people want, surely, is a primarily good income from a rewarding job. They'd also like good education for their children; a health service that is working as it is supposed to; decent, well maintained, roads; affordable, reliable, public transport; and above all, I'd guess, access to genuinely affordable housing. The question that has to be answered is whether leaving, or remaining in, the EU makes those aspirations mere, or less, probable. We used to have all of those things, and for too many of us it has largely disappeared. So, we also need to answer why that has happened, and whether its disappearance is in any way connected with our membership of the EU.Much of the dissatisfaction I have heard and read with the EU is connected with the disappearance of these things, but to me, the dissatisfied have blamed the EU whereas the real blame lies elsewhere, not uncommonly (but not invariably) with the UK government. So, we are set to leave an institution that, while notably imperfect, is not the cause of the dissatisfaction many people feel. A large part of the media has been responsible for this misdirection of responsibility, ably supported by people whose motivations I profoundly mistrust. That is what I see. So, am I wrong?

I would ask:

Are we likely to achieve any of those aspirations you mention by remaining in the EU?

Surely with the estimated £8,600,000,000  we 'paid out' in 2016 we 'should' be better able to achieve those aspirations you mention?

This is a figure one would consider to be savings once any negotiated liability, if any, is cleared.

 Please note 'should' as it all depends on the outcome of the EU negotiations and other talks outside of the EU with regard to trade and industry as well as fiscal considerations on the global stage.  

I reckon £8.6 billion isn't a bad foundation on which to build ones aspirations.