Is Brexit stuffed?

[Brian Kirby]

RogerC - 2017-12-11 1:29 PM

Brian Kirby - 2017-12-11 11:14 AM

RogerC - 2017-12-10 10:12 PM......................As before I've lost the will to even bother when faced with such fudge, smoke and mirrors.

Ho, ho! You just wanted to knock me off my perch, and thought you could see an opportunity to do so! Tweet, tweet! :-D

Not at all Brian.  I merely wanted you, for once, to stop waffling and say what you actually mean.  Clearly that is not going to happen.

But I did say what I meant. My point, as should have been reasonably clear, is that Brexit is not something that can be reversed after 5 years, in the way that governments can. Once we leave we are out.The only way back in would be a fresh application, starting from scratch, accepting whatever conditions were then applicable. So, no rebate, and no opt-outs (Schengen, Monetary Union, the Charter of Fundamental Rights, the Area of Freedom, Security and Justice).I don't think Britain would swallow those aspects of the EU as it is today, so my hunch is that once out we would be likely to stay out and, as the other 27 develop their union, become increasingly likely to stay out.Whether you wish to capture that situation as "an indeterminate time", or as "forever", seems to me completely irrelevant to the point I was making. Or is this explanation, apart from being completely unnecessary given a few seconds thought, just more waffle?

[RogerC]

Brian Kirby - 2017-12-11 3:09 PM My point, as should have been reasonably clear, is that Brexit is not something that can be reversed after 5 years, in the way that governments can. Once we leave we are out.The only way back in would be a fresh application, starting from scratch, accepting whatever conditions were then applicable.  

Strangely IIRC the remain camp claimed on many occasions (I recall you were of the same if not similar opinion) that the exit situation would be reversed.  Remain claimed on many occasions, irrespective of us duped, brainwashed etc etc as we are referred to Brexit voters having won the referendum, we would be back in as soon as the remain camp could bring it about.

I am perfectly aware Brexit is not a process as in a general election whereby one gets another bite at the cherry every 5 or so years.  That is patently obvious.  You stated 'Brexit is forever'!!  Then you say we could reapply sometime in the future which once again is patently obvious as is the point regarding rejoining conditions.  So much stating the bleedin obvious.....but little regarding the clear contradiction in your previous offerings.

[Brian Kirby]

RogerC - 2017-12-11 6:01 PM

Brian Kirby - 2017-12-11 3:09 PM My point, as should have been reasonably clear, is that Brexit is not something that can be reversed after 5 years, in the way that governments can. Once we leave we are out.The only way back in would be a fresh application, starting from scratch, accepting whatever conditions were then applicable.  

Strangely IIRC the remain camp claimed on many occasions (I recall you were of the same if not similar opinion) that the exit situation would be reversed.  Remain claimed on many occasions, irrespective of us duped, brainwashed etc etc as we are referred to Brexit voters having won the referendum, we would be back in as soon as the remain camp could bring it about.

I am perfectly aware Brexit is not a process as in a general election whereby one gets another bite at the cherry every 5 or so years.  That is patently obvious.  You stated 'Brexit is forever'!!  Then you say we could reapply sometime in the future which once again is patently obvious as is the point regarding rejoining conditions.  So much stating the bleedin obvious.....but little regarding the clear contradiction in your previous offerings.

I really don't know what you are disputing, Roger, or why, other than for the (apparent) joy of disputing something! The reversal of Brexit is easiest accomplished before we leave, by withdrawing the Article notice. Beyond that, it will not be straightforward for the reasons I've stated. As you say, all obvious. So obvious, in fact, that I simply don't understand what point you are making.Not straightforward is not the same as impossible, and it may be that people will wish to re-join if Brexit turns out as I suspect it will, and not as you suspect it will. Again, as you say, all obvious. So much is obvious, in fact, that I can't see where the contradiction arises. You have selected a particular interpretation of "forever", that ignores the context in which I used it, and hung a pointless argument on that. What seems not to be obvious to you is that I was using a different interpretation of forever, which I thought obvious from the context in which I used it. Is that not obvious?

[RogerC]

Brian Kirby - 2017-12-11 7:10 PM

RogerC - 2017-12-11 6:01 PM

Brian Kirby - 2017-12-11 3:09 PM My point, as should have been reasonably clear, is that Brexit is not something that can be reversed after 5 years, in the way that governments can. Once we leave we are out.The only way back in would be a fresh application, starting from scratch, accepting whatever conditions were then applicable.  

Strangely IIRC the remain camp claimed on many occasions (I recall you were of the same if not similar opinion) that the exit situation would be reversed.  Remain claimed on many occasions, irrespective of us duped, brainwashed etc etc as we are referred to Brexit voters having won the referendum, we would be back in as soon as the remain camp could bring it about.

I am perfectly aware Brexit is not a process as in a general election whereby one gets another bite at the cherry every 5 or so years.  That is patently obvious.  You stated 'Brexit is forever'!!  Then you say we could reapply sometime in the future which once again is patently obvious as is the point regarding rejoining conditions.  So much stating the bleedin obvious.....but little regarding the clear contradiction in your previous offerings.

I really don't know what you are disputing, Roger, or why, other than for the (apparent) joy of disputing something! The reversal of Brexit is easiest accomplished before we leave, by withdrawing the Article notice. Beyond that, it will not be straightforward for the reasons I've stated. As you say, all obvious. So obvious, in fact, that I simply don't understand what point you are making.Not straightforward is not the same as impossible, and it may be that people will wish to re-join if Brexit turns out as I suspect it will, and not as you suspect it will. Again, as you say, all obvious. So much is obvious, in fact, that I can't see where the contradiction arises. You have selected a particular interpretation of "forever", that ignores the context in which I used it, and hung a pointless argument on that. What seems not to be obvious to you is that I was using a different interpretation of forever, which I thought obvious from the context in which I used it. Is that not obvious?

OK so now it is your 'interpretation' of forever.  Given the context of your post whereby you describe one scenario as reversible every 5 years and in the same sentence comment that Brexit is Forever how is one supposed to read that?  What comes across is that you feel it is OK for you to apply rules of 'interpretation' but quite often take others to task for being less than 'correct'.  Could it be that your precision in the use of the written word is less than you clearly feel it should be in others?

Double standards or arrogance I'm not sure which is worse.

P.S.  How do you know how I think Brexit will pan out because I don't recall ever stating what I think might happen with regard to the end game....or pan out as you say?  Is the remoaners crystal ball with you this week?

[Brian Kirby]

RogerC - 2017-12-11 8:22 PM....................

1 OK so now it is your 'interpretation' of forever.  ........................

2 P.S.  How do you know how I think Brexit will pan out because I don't recall ever stating what I think might happen with regard to the end game....or pan out as you say?  ...............

This is really stupid. Last reply.

1 Of course it is, it was my choice of word.

2 Because you say you voted for it. I assume you didn't vote that way as an act of national self-harm.

[Barryd999]

Rather than just make the thread boring Roger by continuously picking up on issues with the way in which you have interpreted things Brian has said why not have an actual debate on the issues in hand?

 

Seems to me that if there is any sign that public opinion has changed or that perhaps we have been sold a pup and its not going to be all it was cracked up to be would it not make more sense to revoke Article 50 and put Brexit on ice for the foreseeable rather than try and get back in at a later date and be subject to losing all the advantages we have now?

 

I think its time to move on from treating it as a game of football and calling each other names unless its in jest. Its getting pretty serious now and whichever side you were on I think we have to take a step back and decide if it really is what we want right now and if its going to be the best thing for the UK (and Europe I guess).

[antony1969]

Barryd999 - 2017-12-12 1:01 PM

 

Rather than just make the thread boring Roger by continuously picking up on issues with the way in which you have interpreted things Brian has said why not have an actual debate on the issues in hand?

 

Seems to me that if there is any sign that public opinion has changed or that perhaps we have been sold a pup and its not going to be all it was cracked up to be would it not make more sense to revoke Article 50 and put Brexit on ice for the foreseeable rather than try and get back in at a later date and be subject to losing all the advantages we have now?

 

I think its time to move on from treating it as a game of football and calling each other names unless its in jest. Its getting pretty serious now and whichever side you were on I think we have to take a step back and decide if it really is what we want right now and if its going to be the best thing for the UK (and Europe I guess).

 

I thought we'd already decided "it really is what we want right now" in 2016 ... I'm sure we had a referendum

[Guest pelmetman]

Barryd999 - 2017-12-12 1:01 PM

 

Seems to me that if there is any sign that public opinion has changed or that perhaps we have been sold a pup and its not going to be all it was cracked up to be would it not make more sense to revoke Article 50 and put Brexit on ice for the foreseeable rather than try and get back in at a later date and be subject to losing all the advantages we have now?

 

 

What advantages???? 8-) .........

 

 

 

 

[Barryd999]

antony1969 - 2017-12-12 2:20 PM

 

Barryd999 - 2017-12-12 1:01 PM

 

Rather than just make the thread boring Roger by continuously picking up on issues with the way in which you have interpreted things Brian has said why not have an actual debate on the issues in hand?

 

Seems to me that if there is any sign that public opinion has changed or that perhaps we have been sold a pup and its not going to be all it was cracked up to be would it not make more sense to revoke Article 50 and put Brexit on ice for the foreseeable rather than try and get back in at a later date and be subject to losing all the advantages we have now?

 

I think its time to move on from treating it as a game of football and calling each other names unless its in jest. Its getting pretty serious now and whichever side you were on I think we have to take a step back and decide if it really is what we want right now and if its going to be the best thing for the UK (and Europe I guess).

 

I thought we'd already decided "it really is what we want right now" in 2016 ... I'm sure we had a referendum

 

Its nearly 2018 now though Antony. The referendum was a long time ago. We know a lot more now and lets face it none of it looks promising or remotely like what was promised all that time ago or what was written on the side of a bus. You cannot possibly tell me your happy with how its shaping up as its pretty much looking like a soft Brexit now or hardly much Brexit at all really.

 

Or are you doing what you accused us remainers of, "holding out" for the Brexit you dreamed about? Nothing wrong with either of us doing that but you have to ask yourself if indeed Brexit does not look like what you thought it would or remotely like what was sold to the electorate and there is no chance of a hard Brexit would no Brexit (for the time being at least) be a better option? Serious question as I have serious doubts that anyone is going to be happy with the outcome. Whats the point of it all if we leave only in name? Why bother?

[Guest pelmetman]

Barryd999 - 2017-12-12 2:38 PM

 

antony1969 - 2017-12-12 2:20 PM

 

Barryd999 - 2017-12-12 1:01 PM

 

Rather than just make the thread boring Roger by continuously picking up on issues with the way in which you have interpreted things Brian has said why not have an actual debate on the issues in hand?

 

Seems to me that if there is any sign that public opinion has changed or that perhaps we have been sold a pup and its not going to be all it was cracked up to be would it not make more sense to revoke Article 50 and put Brexit on ice for the foreseeable rather than try and get back in at a later date and be subject to losing all the advantages we have now?

 

I think its time to move on from treating it as a game of football and calling each other names unless its in jest. Its getting pretty serious now and whichever side you were on I think we have to take a step back and decide if it really is what we want right now and if its going to be the best thing for the UK (and Europe I guess).

 

I thought we'd already decided "it really is what we want right now" in 2016 ... I'm sure we had a referendum

 

Its nearly 2018 now though Antony. The referendum was a long time ago. We know a lot more now

 

Yep we know the sky didn't fall in.....neither did we enter an immediate recession.....nor did we lose hundreds of thousands of jobs ;-) .........

 

In fact things have turned out completely the opposite to your Remoaner predictions >:-) .......

 

So carry on bleating you Remoaner sheep :D ........

 

 

[antony1969]

Barryd999 - 2017-12-12 2:38 PM

 

antony1969 - 2017-12-12 2:20 PM

 

Barryd999 - 2017-12-12 1:01 PM

 

Rather than just make the thread boring Roger by continuously picking up on issues with the way in which you have interpreted things Brian has said why not have an actual debate on the issues in hand?

 

Seems to me that if there is any sign that public opinion has changed or that perhaps we have been sold a pup and its not going to be all it was cracked up to be would it not make more sense to revoke Article 50 and put Brexit on ice for the foreseeable rather than try and get back in at a later date and be subject to losing all the advantages we have now?

 

I think its time to move on from treating it as a game of football and calling each other names unless its in jest. Its getting pretty serious now and whichever side you were on I think we have to take a step back and decide if it really is what we want right now and if its going to be the best thing for the UK (and Europe I guess).

 

I thought we'd already decided "it really is what we want right now" in 2016 ... I'm sure we had a referendum

 

Its nearly 2018 now though Antony. The referendum was a long time ago. We know a lot more now and lets face it none of it looks promising or remotely like what was promised all that time ago or what was written on the side of a bus. You cannot possibly tell me your happy with how its shaping up as its pretty much looking like a soft Brexit now or hardly much Brexit at all really.

 

Or are you doing what you accused us remainers of, "holding out" for the Brexit you dreamed about? Nothing wrong with either of us doing that but you have to ask yourself if indeed Brexit does not look like what you thought it would or remotely like what was sold to the electorate and there is no chance of a hard Brexit would no Brexit (for the time being at least) be a better option? Serious question as I have serious doubts that anyone is going to be happy with the outcome. Whats the point of it all if we leave only in name? Why bother?

 

Been totally worth it up to now Barry ... If only to find out how many whinging , sulky wet drips we have in this country ... Always knew we had a lot but then add the US election and those wets become positively drenched ... Backs up my question yesterday regarding those who fought in the war , bet they aint half proud

[Barryd999]

I am a bit disappointed in those reactions. I did wonder if we might have had some reasoned debate about it. Dave, what I was talking about advantages if we were to revoke article 50 rather than leave and try and join in a few years time was stuff like the fact that currently we get a huge rebate, dont have the Euro and are not in Schengen. If Brexit goes pear shaped and we end up reapplying to join I doubt any of those will be available.

 

As for the sky not falling in straight after the referendum as has been discussed many times what nobody expected was that it took nearly a year to actually declare we were leaving. so its still early days, we havent left yet but the writing is on the wall with the various assessments that have been made and it doesnt look good. Inflation up to 3.2% and pretty much all the assessments claiming the economy will be damaged. It looks like we might avert a hard Brexit so the damage may be limited but damage it will be.

 

I dont think its fair to call us whingers etc either. If we didnt care about our country why would so many be so vocal about it and seek to either reassess Brexit before we hit the button or at the least avoid a hard Brexit?

 

I think it would be very foolish just to carry on with anything just because a small majority thought it was a good idea nearly two years ago.

[Guest pelmetman]

Barryd999 - 2017-12-12 3:35 PM

 

I think it would be very foolish just to carry on with anything just because a small majority thought it was a good idea nearly two years ago.

 

17,410,742 is not a small majority ;-) .......

 

Its a dam sight more than any political party can hope to get >:-) .........

 

 

 

 

 

 

[RogerC]

Barryd999 - 2017-12-12 1:01 PMRather than just make the thread boring Roger by continuously picking up on issues with the way in which you have interpreted things Brian has said why not have an actual debate on the issues in hand?Seems to me that if there is any sign that public opinion has changed or that perhaps we have been sold a pup and its not going to be all it was cracked up to be would it not make more sense to revoke Article 50 and put Brexit on ice for the foreseeable rather than try and get back in at a later date and be subject to losing all the advantages we have now?I think its time to move on from treating it as a game of football and calling each other names unless its in jest. Its getting pretty serious now and whichever side you were on I think we have to take a step back and decide if it really is what we want right now and if its going to be the best thing for the UK (and Europe I guess).

Having a debate is what I would very much appreciate.  I suppose I will just have to accept that Brian is back on the fence and will never admit to having posted comments that are totally at odds with each other.  Shame really as it makes the debate a little hollow.

Anyway the referendum wasn't a case of vote now and let's have another look a bit later on.  Ignoring the referendum now and revoking Article 50 would be totally undemocratic irrespective of what the remain camp thinks.

I can not accept that it is solely the 'leave' camp that was, as the remain camp claims, misled and lied to.  The EU has deep designs on expansion and encompassing nations and is being driven towards becoming an overarching administration.  Something I dearly do not want the UK to be caught up in.  However it appears 'your side' was/is prepared to stick with a 'club' that costs £9 billion a year to belong to and is clearly heading towards ever greater domination.  I find it amazing your side has sufficient 'faith' in the EU to 'wait and see, when you have really no idea of what it intends to advance or deliver yet have apparently no faith in the UK to stand on it's own abilities.

Each to their own I suppose but I know where my loyalty lies and it is not with the EU.

It's taken you a while to see that things are serious.  I would have thought that from the announcement of the referendum result, or if not then, certainly as Article 50 was invoked that it was clear to a blind man that it was 'serious'.  As for it being a treated as a game of football, not for one minute have I done so.  It is a topic way way more serious to be treated as a game and anyone who has is, IMO, quite incredibly stupid.

Lastly....strange to see your last comment.  I was of the opinion that the 'leave' voters have always declared themselves as to wanting the best for the UK so what's new?

[pepe63xnotuse]

pelmetman - 2017-12-12 3:53 PM

 

Barryd999 - 2017-12-12 3:35 PM

 

I think it would be very foolish just to carry on with anything just because a small majority thought it was a good idea nearly two years ago.

 

17,410,742 is not a small majority ;-) .......

 

 

But it wasn't a 17,410,742 "majority" was it...that was the total number who voted leave.. *-)

( when 16,141,241 voted to remain....)

 

As for "Is Brexit Stuffed?"...

Well, it's still going to happen but, as has been said, I think in many areas it'll just be pretty much leaving in name only.

 

 

 

[colin]

Barryd999 - 2017-12-12 3:35 PM

 

I think it would be very foolish just to carry on with anything just because a small majority thought it was a good idea nearly two years ago.

 

It may have escaped your notice, but we had a GE this year, both main parties pledged to respect the referendum and got a overwhelming majority, swing to cons 10% swing to lab 15% (from memory), the parties who pledged to revisit the referendum lost votes.

[pepe63xnotuse]

RogerC - 2017-12-12 4:00 PM

Having a debate is what I would very much appreciate....

 

Just as long as you are debating with others with a similar view though, eh Roger?

 

..'cause if you aren't, it's not long before the insults and gifs start flying... (lol)

[RogerC]

Barryd999 - 2017-12-12 3:35 PMI am a bit disappointed in those reactions. I did wonder if we might have had some reasoned debate about it. Dave, what I was talking about advantages if we were to revoke article 50 rather than leave and try and join in a few years time was stuff like the fact that currently we get a huge rebate, dont have the Euro and are not in Schengen. If Brexit goes pear shaped and we end up reapplying to join I doubt any of those will be available.As for the sky not falling in straight after the referendum as has been discussed many times what nobody expected was that it took nearly a year to actually declare we were leaving. so its still early days, we havent left yet but the writing is on the wall with the various assessments that have been made and it doesnt look good. Inflation up to 3.2% and pretty much all the assessments claiming the economy will be damaged. It looks like we might avert a hard Brexit so the damage may be limited but damage it will be. I dont think its fair to call us whingers etc either. If we didnt care about our country why would so many be so vocal about it and seek to either reassess Brexit before we hit the button or at the least avoid a hard Brexit?I think it would be very foolish just to carry on with anything just because a small majority thought it was a good idea nearly two years ago.

Over 17 million thought it the best option......and another post looking for another bite at the cherry.  Why is it that the remain side can not accept and get behind the exit process......unless of course the result of a democratic process is to be ignored.

[RogerC]

pepe63 - 2017-12-12 4:25 PM

RogerC - 2017-12-12 4:00 PMHaving a debate is what I would very much appreciate....

Just as long as you are debating with others with a similar view though, eh Roger?..'cause if you aren't, it's not long before the insults and gifs start flying... (lol)

Not really.  Certain posters here regularly inject irrelevant boring, repetitive nonsense as well as appearing to denigrate those who are simply doing their duty.  Others obfuscate and invoke smoke and mirrors or are experts at spin.  Both of these traits make for a pointless debate.

As for the insults, gif's.....well were it the case that I was the only one delivering an element of annoyance, disbelief, strong disagreement etc by adding 'insults' as you put it I would be concerned.  However as others are prepared to add theirs I see reason to alter my approach.

As for Gif's.......I find they are an injection of humour when the occasion calls for it.    

[Bulletguy]

pepe63 - 2017-12-12 4:20 PM

 

pelmetman - 2017-12-12 3:53 PM

 

Barryd999 - 2017-12-12 3:35 PM

 

I think it would be very foolish just to carry on with anything just because a small majority thought it was a good idea nearly two years ago.

 

17,410,742 is not a small majority ;-) .......

 

 

But it wasn't a 17,410,742 "majority" was it...that was the total number who voted leave.. *-)

( when 16,141,241 voted to remain....)

 

As for "Is Brexit Stuffed?"...

Well, it's still going to happen but, as has been said, I think in many areas it'll just be pretty much leaving in name only.

Exactly......and a miniscule margin of just 3.78% which was hardly an overwhelming landslide success. And we won't mention what protagonist agitator said pre-referendum had such a marginal amount gone in favour of Remain as his quote came back to haunt him much to the embarrassment of Brexiters who quickly airbrushed it out.

[Barryd999]

I think its right to respect the democratic will of the people only if it is still the will of the people. I also think its the job of the politicians who we elected to make these kinds of decisions for us not to do something that they know for certain will be damaging to this country. I think its becoming all to apparent that it is not going to go the way the small majority who voted to leave in the referendum thought it would and you can blame the dishonesty of the Vote Leave campaign for that. Now is their time to deliver what they promised and lets face it, they cant.

 

That will become more apparent and then what? Carry on regardless for a slightly worse version of what we have now? Where is the glorious victory in that?

 

With any luck a general election will decide it and will be a second referendum and by then I reckon the "people" will have woken up to just how much of a bad idea Brexit was and will vote accordingly.

 

Hand on heart if the options are "leave the EU but still be beholden to the ECJ and EU rules and have no vote at the table or revoke article 50 and stay as we are which would you choose? Those could well be the choices you face.

[Brian Kirby]

But, what is to be the subject of the debate? We've done Brexit to death on here. There are entrenched views on both "sides".

 

Reasoned argument is futile against closed minds. It is ridiculed by closed minds precisely because it is reasoned. The reasoned arguments are thrown back as spin, or waffle, or Bremoaning, or whatever, simply because they don't take a non-negotiable, two line, stance. They are written off as boring, contradictory, and within nanoseconds it is the poster who is being attacked, and not their point of view. It descends to petty point scoring because, when confronted with more nuanced, complex, and subtle arguments, the closed mind seems only capable of marshalling such responses.

 

Debate requires understanding, give and take, good humour, engagement with each other's points of view. The chief Brexiters on here demonstrate none of those characteristics.

 

The combined weight of their arguments to date is to keep repeating, in terms, "I want Brexit, and I don't care what it costs, or who end up paying the price". We've had "If you don't like it, tough, get used to it". Basically, "Just shut up and fall in line, we are the majority, we won, you lost, and therefore you are wrong because, we, the majority, say so". Since when were majorities right? If majorities are unerringly right, why do we keep having elections? This is not debate, it is a school playground bitch-fest!

 

They pray in their aid patriotism, and infer that anyone who thinks Brexit a bad idea is unpatriotic. They warp themselves in the flag, and then use it as a mere comfort blanket. They portray arguments that question their claims for the economic success Britain will enjoy post-Brexit, as "putting Britain down". They claim that talk of Brescape, or re-joining, is anti-democratic, while refusing to accept that democracy based on a single vote, on a single issue, is itself undemocratic. That democracy is a living, changing, thing, and to be truly democratic it has to reflect public opinion, and that public opinion varies with time. They overlook that our version of democracy caters for these swings in opinion by ensuring that elections are held at five year intervals, while seeking to cast the referendum outcome in stone.

 

But yes, I'd love a proper debate. But we first need a few people capable of constructing reasoned, properly thought out, arguments, whose minds are open to alternative views, and who don't resort to ad hominem and/or straw man responses, or simply insults and name calling, when challenged. So, is anyone out there! :-D

[antony1969]

Brian Kirby - 2017-12-12 7:01 PM

 

But, what is to be the subject of the debate? We've done Brexit to death on here. There are entrenched views on both "sides".

 

Reasoned argument is futile against closed minds. It is ridiculed by closed minds precisely because it is reasoned. The reasoned arguments are thrown back as spin, or waffle, or Bremoaning, or whatever, simply because they don't take a non-negotiable, two line, stance. They are written off as boring, contradictory, and within nanoseconds it is the poster who is being attacked, and not their point of view. It descends to petty point scoring because, when confronted with more nuanced, complex, and subtle arguments, the closed mind seems only capable of marshalling such responses.

 

Debate requires understanding, give and take, good humour, engagement with each other's points of view. The chief Brexiters on here demonstrate none of those characteristics.

 

The combined weight of their arguments to date is to keep repeating, in terms, "I want Brexit, and I don't care what it costs, or who end up paying the price". We've had "If you don't like it, tough, get used to it". Basically, "Just shut up and fall in line, we are the majority, we won, you lost, and therefore you are wrong because, we, the majority, say so". Since when were majorities right? If majorities are unerringly right, why do we keep having elections? This is not debate, it is a school playground bitch-fest!

 

They pray in their aid patriotism, and infer that anyone who thinks Brexit a bad idea is unpatriotic. They warp themselves in the flag, and then use it as a mere comfort blanket. They portray arguments that question their claims for the economic success Britain will enjoy post-Brexit, as "putting Britain down". They claim that talk of Brescape, or re-joining, is anti-democratic, while refusing to accept that democracy based on a single vote, on a single issue, is itself undemocratic. That democracy is a living, changing, thing, and to be truly democratic it has to reflect public opinion, and that public opinion varies with time. They overlook that our version of democracy caters for these swings in opinion by ensuring that elections are held at five year intervals, while seeking to cast the referendum outcome in stone.

 

But yes, I'd love a proper debate. But we first need a few people capable of constructing reasoned, properly thought out, arguments, whose minds are open to alternative views, and who don't resort to ad hominem and/or straw man responses, or simply insults and name calling, when challenged. So, is anyone out there! :-D

 

Simple answer ... No ... The name calling started Brian and I don't just mean on here straight away after the result ... From 'Alf Garnett Little Englanders' to 'racists' to 'they didn't realise what they were voting for' ... Reasoned debate has long gone and when you have someone constantly still whinging on about a second referendum all this time after on here that isn't reasoned debate its just sour grapes still all this time after ... Its all got very , very boring

[RogerC]

Brian Kirby - 2017-12-12 7:01 PMBut, what is to be the subject of the debate? We've done Brexit to death on here. There are entrenched views on both "sides".Reasoned argument is futile against closed minds. It is ridiculed by closed minds precisely because it is reasoned. The reasoned arguments are thrown back as spin, or waffle, or Bremoaning, or whatever, simply because they don't take a non-negotiable, two line, stance. They are written off as boring, contradictory, and within nanoseconds it is the poster who is being attacked, and not their point of view. It descends to petty point scoring because, when confronted with more nuanced, complex, and subtle arguments, the closed mind seems only capable of marshalling such responses. Debate requires understanding, give and take, good humour, engagement with each other's points of view. The chief Brexiters on here demonstrate none of those characteristics. The combined weight of their arguments to date is to keep repeating, in terms, "I want Brexit, and I don't care what it costs, or who end up paying the price". We've had "If you don't like it, tough, get used to it". Basically, "Just shut up and fall in line, we are the majority, we won, you lost, and therefore you are wrong because, we, the majority, say so". Since when were majorities right? If majorities are unerringly right, why do we keep having elections? This is not debate, it is a school playground bitch-fest!They pray in their aid patriotism, and infer that anyone who thinks Brexit a bad idea is unpatriotic. They warp themselves in the flag, and then use it as a mere comfort blanket. They portray arguments that question their claims for the economic success Britain will enjoy post-Brexit, as "putting Britain down". They claim that talk of Brescape, or re-joining, is anti-democratic, while refusing to accept that democracy based on a single vote, on a single issue, is itself undemocratic. That democracy is a living, changing, thing, and to be truly democratic it has to reflect public opinion, and that public opinion varies with time. They overlook that our version of democracy caters for these swings in opinion by ensuring that elections are held at five year intervals, while seeking to cast the referendum outcome in stone.But yes, I'd love a proper debate. But we first need a few people capable of constructing reasoned, properly thought out, arguments, whose minds are open to alternative views, and who don't resort to ad hominem and/or straw man responses, or simply insults and name calling, when challenged. So, is anyone out there! :-D

What is to be the subject?  I strongly suspect Brexit will be a major issue, topic, source of friction for some time to come so......as this is Barry's 'Brexit stuffed' thread how about letting it run........

I feel this will never be a 'debate' as in the true sense of the word:

Talk over, talk through, talk about, exchange views on, exchange views about, thrash out, argue, argue about, argue the pros and cons of, dispute, wrangle over, bandy words concerning, contend over, contest, controvert etc for one quite simple reason:

The referendum was a yes/no question which clearly divided the nation.  With quite appalling campaigning on both sides, both invoking the fear factor and, if honesty can prevail for a moment, neither side actually giving anything of real value to the proceedings. Unfortunately for some the vote did not go their way and (sorry folks but this is how I see it) the accusations and war of words started:

'out' voting oldies stole our future.

'out' voters were lied to.

'out' voters were duped.

'out' voters were deceived.

'out' voters didn't know what you were voting for.

'out' voters up North are numpties for voting out.

'out' voters were told 'better educated people voted remain'.

The terms..."undereducated, misinformed, xenophobic stupid old arseholes" were readily bandied about.  And there are many more.

We (leave) are constantly told 'with certainty' by the remain camp that Brexit is Armageddon in the waiting.  A relatively high number of other 'certainties' have been provided by the remain camp, mostly of doom and gloom.

I accept there are failings on both sides from the campaigners, to the politicians of all colours right down to those who couldn't be bothered to vote yet still blame those of us who did.  I admit to taking exception myself, yes hands up to showing my irritation and annoyance through my keyboard.  In my defence as a leave voter it is rather unpleasant, irritating and downright annoying to be the subject of those 'names' and derogatory terms simply because I/we voted differently to those who see things differently.  

Brian you comment that you'd love a proper debate.  So would the rest of us I believe.  However these phrases you use hardly encourage a considered reply and as far as I am concerned do not reflect my feelings regarding leaving:

"I want Brexit, and I don't care what it costs, or who end up paying the price".  

I don't recall anyone here, or in the media I have viewed, saying that.

"If you don't like it, tough, get used to it"

I believe that sort of comment is predicated on the clamour from the remain camp to some way or another stop the leave process.

As has been said numerous times before what one writes is not necessarily what the reader takes from those words.  So with that in mind and Brian wanting a proper debate with:

QUOTE

 ........ a few people capable of constructing reasoned, properly thought out, arguments, whose minds are open to alternative views, and who don't resort to ad hominem and/or straw man responses, or simply insults and name calling, when challenged. UNQUOTE

I would ask this:

Reading the following does anyone really consider that the comments below, presumably aimed at those posting from the remain side of the issue, to be helpful:

QUOTE:

Reasoned argument is futile against closed minds. It is ridiculed by closed minds precisely because it is reasoned. The reasoned arguments are thrown back as spin, or waffle, or Bremoaning, or whatever, simply because they don't take a non-negotiable, two line, stance. They are written off as boring, contradictory, and within nanoseconds it is the poster who is being attacked, and not their point of view. It descends to petty point scoring because, when confronted with more nuanced, complex, and subtle arguments, the closed mind seems only capable of marshalling such responses.........UNQUOTE

UNQUOTE.......They pray in their aid patriotism, and infer that anyone who thinks Brexit a bad idea is unpatriotic. They warp themselves in the flag, and then use it as a mere comfort blanket.......UNQUOTE

I'm not 100% sure what was intended by those comments but for someone looking for reasoned debate I find them to be insulting, pompous, uncalled for and quite likely to achieve the complete opposite of the desired result.

[Barryd999]

I noticed Roger you left out the insults fired at remainers. We have just had a few on this page. Whingers, sore losers, Wets, Rabid remoaners, Tree hugging lefties, screaming lefties and many more. Not that Im bothered, I find most of them funny to be honest but surely we should be beyond that by now.

 

I quite enjoy the debates, the one on FACTS has run since before the referendum and although it was heated and a bit abusive at first including one bloke posting an anti Brexit song 8-) its evolved into an interesting and civilised discussion.

 

What I would like though is an answer to my question further up rather than us discussing Who insulted who.

 

Faced with an option of a soft Brexit where we pretty much leave in name only or no Brexit where we stay as we are with our current deal which would you chose and why?