Euro 6 Ducatos and 'smart alternators'

[John52]

Keithl - 2021-05-14 9:57 PM

 

John52 - 2021-05-14 9:48 PM

 

I stuck a screwdriver between the 2 contacts on the thing on the battery negative post to bypass the it, whilst running the engine and monitoring the voltage at the cigar lighter socket.

The unit on the battery negative post is a current sensing coil (aka Hall effect coil) and will have no internal working parts. I am assuming you unplugged the harness and then shorted the pins on the actual unit, correct?

 

When you unplugged the unit you would create a fault in the Battery Monitoring System (BMS) and iirc it would then default to 'flat out' charging (it certainly did on several BMW cars I tried when at work). What was the battery voltage with the sensor unplugged?

 

Keith.

No I just stuck a large screwdriver between the terminals on the unit, bypassing it whilst still connected. So presumably it would show no current going in or out of the battery because it would be going through the screwdriver blade instead?

I have a voltmeter plugged into the cigar lighter socket with the engine running. The voltage continued to fluctuate between about the same range, with or without the screwdriver in place. Then afterwards I switched the engine off and unplugged the earth lead to get a clearer photo of it. I have never unplugged the unit, only the earth lead and then only after I switched the engine off.

[Keithl]

John52 - 2021-05-15 6:12 AM

 

No I just stuck a large screwdriver between the terminals on the unit, bypassing it whilst still connected. So presumably it would show no current going in or out of the battery because it would be going through the screwdriver blade instead?

I have a voltmeter plugged into the cigar lighter socket with the engine running. The voltage continued to fluctuate between about the same range, with or without the screwdriver in place. Then afterwards I switched the engine off and unplugged the earth lead to get a clearer photo of it. I have never unplugged the unit, only the earth lead and then only after I switched the engine off.

So what was the voltage range you were measuring?

 

And agree by shorting the input and output of the sensor it would then show zero current flow and likely put the alternator into a very low output mode.

 

Keith.

[John52]

Keithl - 2021-05-15 9:14 AM

 

by shorting the input and output of the sensor it would then show zero current flow and likely put the alternator into a very low output mode.

 

Keith.

I don't know, I thought it might think there was nothing going in the battery so raise the output to put some in?

Voltage about 12.5 - 14v irrespective of whether the screwdriver was shorting the sensor

But the battery is probably fully charged

Maybe I need to try it again when I get the secondary batteries in

I was thinking if I've got all batteries connected it parallel its got to charge them all

If only to 80% plus but thats good enough.

Problem might be this thing thinks its all going into one battery and adjusts the rate accordingly :-S

[John52]

Just tried unplugging the sensor on the battery negative post and starting the engine.

Did not bring on any warning lights - voltage rises when the engine starts as you would expect

A guy on you-tube has done that with his car and said it makes it appear to charge the battery normally.

But he said it might have other effects he doesn't know about.

[Keithl]

You may find Eco-Stop/Start does not work with the sensor unplugged. That was how I found the 'fault' on a BMW car when someone had unplugged the sensor. A scan with an Autel code reader showed up the code for 'sensor unplugged'.

 

Keith.

[John52]

Keithl - 2021-05-15 10:55 AM

 

You may find Eco-Stop/Start does not work with the sensor unplugged.

 

Keith.

That would be even better :-D

I hate the ******* thing cutting out every time you stop. Defeats my efforts to maximise charge to the secondary battery, and I was taught stopping and starting is the worst thing for an engine. Better to leave it running. I know a guy who had a fleet of ice cream vans with engines running all day with no problems (its to stir the ice cream, not refrigerate it)

Just checked with my code reader but all I get is 'Linking Error' despite unplugging and plugging it in again several times. But its only a very basic one (Autel MaxiScan MS300)

[mikefitz]

'Messing about' with battery of SEVEL vans can damage the electronics. Any battery disconnection should take place only after a certain period following the engine shutdown with the doors and windows closed.

The drivers handbook stipulates this procedure.

Not following the procedure may result in air bag computer damage that is not always immediately seen. Replacement is costly and at the moment it's difficult to find dealer stock, units are not expected to be available for some time.

 

All van manufactures issue guide notes for 'up converters'. The maximum allowed additional electrical load is in the range 40 to 70 amps. Some Sprinters and Transits with 250 amp alternators allow the higher current.

SEVEL vans fit an optional 'converters' outlet in the drivers B pillar base with a battery connection fused at 50A.

The 180 amp alternator on the SEVEL van, at idle revs has a maximum output of around 110 amps. With all the vehicle electrics on, wipers, heater blower, lights, AC, the vehicle consumes about 50 amps. Allowing something for the vehicle battery and a safety overhead, taking 40 to 45 amps for the 'camper' would seem realistic.

 

The 'up converters ' guides further advise, that a battery to battery charger needs to be installed, where the vehicle has a smart alternator fitted.

 

All profession installs on vehicles with smart alternators now fit a B to B to charge the leisure batteries and isolate any 'back feed'.

 

Following advice from a bloke on YouTube is perhaps not the best solution to a charging problem.

 

Mike

 

[John52]

mikefitz - 2021-05-15 6:58 PM

 

 

Following advice from a bloke on YouTube is perhaps not the best solution to a charging problem.

 

Mike

.. or a bloke on OAL ? ;-)

we seem to be going round in circles

still haven't found out why a simple relay won't work

If both batteries are in parallel, and its enough to charge the starter battery why not the others?

[Keithl]

John52 - 2021-05-16 11:50 AM

 

...still haven't found out why a simple relay won't work

If both batteries are in parallel, and its enough to charge the starter battery why not the others?

I spent several years at work looking at fuel and electrical energy efficiency of cars and 4x4's so have a little background in this matter.

 

My understanding of a so called 'Smart alternator' is that it only charges the battery when 'free' energy is available, ie when the engine is an over-run situation or you are braking. Basically it tries to avoid using any fuel (ie petrol or Diesel) to produce electrical power (over and above what is necessary to maintain current electrical loads) to charge the battery. This seems to be irrespective of whether or not the battery is fully charged, so your basic split charge relay will not have any effect on the charging control system and your leisure battery will not be charged any more or less than the starter battery.

 

Hence why the likes of B2B's are recommended to more effectively charge the leisure battery.

 

Keith.

[Deneb]

Smart alternator charging systems also aim to maintain the vehicle battery at less than a fully charged state, usually around 80 to 85% state of charge, to provide headroom to absorb regenerative charging that will be used during subsequent stop/start events. So a connected battery will never become fully charged without the intervention of a euro 6 compatible B2B. That's also why vehicles with stop/start systems tend to be fitted with AGM or EFB vehicle batteries, which are optimised for longer life expectancy under partially charged conditions.

[John52]

Deneb - 2021-05-16 6:44 PM

 

Smart alternator charging systems also aim to maintain the vehicle battery at less than a fully charged state, usually around 80 to 85% state of charge, to provide headroom to absorb regenerative charging that will be used during subsequent stop/start events.

 

I've 2x100AH secondary batteries so I would be happy with that. Especially when it will charge on tickover.

I've now got them connected to the starter battery via 25mm2 tinned copper cables and 500amp relay activated by ignition switch (taken from the cigarette lighter socket)

Started the engine and in a few seconds the secondary batteries rose from 12.3 to 13.9 volts on tickover :-D

Ran a cable from the negative of the starter battery - instead of earthing it on the bodyshell earthed it at the battery terminal post (pic - ground some of the foam away with the angle grinder to make a channel for the cables and as you can see haven't vacuumed up yet) At the moment the current to the leisure batteries is not going through the sensor on the battery post. Don't know whether to move it to the adjoining contact so it does go through the sensor.

[mikefitz]

From someone who is trying to help you to avoid damaging the van electrics, and getting poor charge performance.

 

The 'up converters' guides further say that any connection to the vehicle battery must be made between the battery positive via a suitable fuse, and the negative connection to chassis NOT the battery negative post.

 

 

Mike

[John52]

mikefitz - 2021-05-17 3:31 PM

 

From someone who is trying to help you to avoid damaging the van electrics, and getting poor charge performance.

Mike

I know and I appreciate that, Thanks B-)

 

mikefitz - 2021-05-17 3:31 PM

The 'up converters' guides further say that any connection to the vehicle battery must be made between the battery positive via a suitable fuse, and the negative connection to chassis NOT the battery negative post.

Mike

Do you have a link to it please?

I read somewhere else that a wired negative to the battery may be better. It gave a reason for this. It said the wired return may be a better conductor than the bodyshell.

At the moment the negative from the secondary batteries is connected to the battery negative earth lead, so the quick release connector will disconnect both starter and secondary batteries in one go.

But the starter battery negative terminal clamp is angled at 45degrees.

I have never seen one like that before and wonder why it is?

Other than possibly to connect the secondary battery so the charge goes through the sensor the same as the starter battery? (If it was a conventional clamp the thick battery cable would be coming up from the starter battery vertically and fouling the lid of the battery box)

[John52]

Update:

Well I have been running it a month - latest Ducato Euro 6 with 'intelligent' alternator, charging 2 secondary batteries (one a starter battery one a leisure battery) Both secondary batteries are 5 years old and were previously used as the secondary batteries in my old X2/50. Connected to the main battery with 25mm2 cables via a 500 amp relay activated by the ignition switch (from the cigarette lighter socket) Its worked well so far. Making more use of the 180 amp alternator than a 30amp B2B charger could.

 

I am not advising this for anyone else or even recommending it because there may be issues I have not discovered yet.

 

The only issue I can see at the moment is if something got left on in the habitation area so the secondary batteries were completely flat, they might sap the power from the engine battery when you turn on the ignition and prevent the engine starting. But they would have to be completely flat, below the level the voltage from the main battery falls to when connected to the starter motor, and I would know about it. I have a switch in between the cigarette lighter socket and the relay so in that case I could keep the batteries separated until the engine started. So its not a fit and forget solution the motorhome builders could use and sell to novices.

I have got a voltmeter on the dashboard and can see the voltage going up to 14.8 volts on deceleration. So it may be advisable to use 2 starter batteries as the secondary batteries to cope with this charge rate?

One of my secondary batteries is a starter battery which has been in use as a leisure battery for 5 years and is still performing well.

I intend to update this thread if I discover any problems.

[John52]

Just been in a motorhome dealership (for bottled gas). Found they have less stock than usual and its nearly all new Ducatos. Many of them don't have the ECO and Start Stop buttons on the dash. Which apparently means no start stop system, no smart alternator (both of which present difficulties for the motorhome converter) The salesman insisted they were all new latest Euro 6 and told me the ECO pack was optional.

I thought the ECO pack was compulsory with the current Euro 6 because the commercial price list gives no option to delete the ECO pack. ?

[arthur49]

John52 - 2021-06-21 8:19 AM

 

Update:

Well I have been running it a month - latest Ducato Euro 6 with 'intelligent' alternator, charging 2 secondary batteries (one a starter battery one a leisure battery) Both secondary batteries are 5 years old and were previously used as the secondary batteries in my old X2/50. Connected to the main battery with 25mm2 cables via a 500 amp relay activated by the ignition switch (from the cigarette lighter socket) Its worked well so far. Making more use of the 180 amp alternator than a 30amp B2B charger could.

 

I am not advising this for anyone else or even recommending it because there may be issues I have not discovered yet.

 

The only issue I can see at the moment is if something got left on in the habitation area so the secondary batteries were completely flat, they might sap the power from the engine battery when you turn on the ignition and prevent the engine starting. But they would have to be completely flat, below the level the voltage from the main battery falls to when connected to the starter motor, and I would know about it. I have a switch in between the cigarette lighter socket and the relay so in that case I could keep the batteries separated until the engine started. So its not a fit and forget solution the motorhome builders could use and sell to novices.

I have got a voltmeter on the dashboard and can see the voltage going up to 14.8 volts on deceleration. So it may be advisable to use 2 starter batteries as the secondary batteries to cope with this charge rate?

One of my secondary batteries is a starter battery which has been in use as a leisure battery for 5 years and is still performing well.

I intend to update this thread if I discover any problems.

 

Be interesting to see how your solution works longer term.

 

I've toyed with the idea of putting B2B direct onto batteries rather than current arrangement in the feed between starter battery and distribution box. With larger cabling too, I could increase charge current - at moment its set at 45A max but can go to 70A in steps which lithiums are happy with.

 

Disabling existing split charge relay deters me ...... but then again I could simply pull the fuse between starter battery and distribution box. I can't see any reason why that wouldn't work though I would lose starter battery voltage monitoring on control panel which is not an issue.

[Brian Kirby]

John52 - 2021-07-06 9:24 AM.........................I thought the ECO pack was compulsory with the current Euro 6 because the commercial price list gives no option to delete the ECO pack. ?

One of those additional options converters can negotiate when placing their orders that is not available for those buying a van or two, but can be if the order is for hundreds?

[John52]

Brian Kirby - 2021-07-06 11:53 AM

 

John52 - 2021-07-06 9:24 AM.........................I thought the ECO pack was compulsory with the current Euro 6 because the commercial price list gives no option to delete the ECO pack. ?

One of those additional options converters can negotiate when placing their orders that is not available for those buying a van or two, but can be if the order is for hundreds?

When I asked the supplying Fiat commercial van dealer if the ECU could be programmed to charge normally their service dept said 'we don't believe this is possible because it affects emissions.'

So I thought this start stop & 'intelligent' charging you get with the ECO pack was necessary to meet the latest emissions. Because when I look through the current Ducato commercial price list I can see no option to delete the ECO pack - like you can delete lots of other packs - bulkhead, tachograph, passenger seat etc etc. Said to be over 10,000 different combinations of Ducato anyone can order. So I would have thought Fiat would give everyone the option to delete the ECO pack if the vehicle was legal (emissions) without it. They don't give you the option of switching off the stop start permanently - you have to press the button again every time you switch on the ignition.

But perhaps anyone who was using it as a commercial van with no secondary battery would have no reason to delete the ECO pack.

[John52]

arthur49 - 2021-07-06 11:26 AM

Be interesting to see how your solution works longer term.

 

Well a lot of people said it wouldn't work, and in theory perhaps it shouldn't.

But it seems to have worked well for a couple of months.

The batteries are having an easier time in the summer though, and I became a bit concerned about the secondary batteries doing more work - a share of the starting and almost everything else, but only the same charge as the starter battery as they were both connected in parallel whenever the ignition was on, I was also a bit concerned about the secondary batteries getting so discharged they might prevent starting on a very cold morning.

So I decided to wire the relay to the D+ output of the alternator, so the batteries are only connected in parallel when the engine is running.

Fiat gives the maximum current to be taken from the D+ terminal as 300ma.

I put a meter on my 500A relay and found it used 740ma 8-)

I guess its a starter relay designed for intermittent use - a strong spring to ensure the contacts separate instantly, and a correspondingly power hungry coil to hold them together

So I got a standard 200amp relay off ebay (£6.50 posted from China) - which uses 170ma and am now using that, with the negative wired to the D+ terminal of the alternator

(using a 2 way switch which can be switched from alternator D+ negative to permanent negative to connect both batteries together for jump starting)

Took the opportunity to change the secondary batteries to 2x019 100ah varta powerframe starter batteries. The others were still working OK but about 5 years old.

Seems to be working well and keeping all batteries well charged :-D

[John52]

mikefitz - 2021-05-14 6:01 PM

(D+ is not easy to find on a SEVEL van), the voltage is not high enough to correctly charge the leisure system.

Mike

Well it settling at about 12.8v so seems ok - but the real test will come in the winter

Can certainly concur that the D+ is not easy to find on a Sevel van

I looked at the converters guide and it shows it as a brown/white wire going to the converters socket.

My Ducato van has this socket, even though it is not on the spec sheet or been charged for.

I tried to find it at the loom going in but couldn't

So took the socket out and found it was brown/black

I found a brown/black wire in the loom nearer where I wanted it, and cut that to find it wasn't the D+

I then found another brown/black wire and cut that to find it wasn't the D+ either

So I had to go back to the converters socket and cut the brown/black wire there to wire it in and run a cable back from there.

I can only guess the loom manufacturer must have run out of some colours, and substituted whatever other colour came to hand :-S