Euro 6 Ducatos and 'smart alternators'

[Steve928]

Sorry I didn't explain that very well.

 

The fridge has both a low power supply for its light and a high power supply for the cooling function. Both are supplied from the hab.batteries, the low power one being permanently live while the high power one is activated by alternator voltage on the converter interface's D+ terminal (which also disconnects the hab. electrics, lighting, control panel etc.).

 

The Alde heating is permantely live, again supplied by the hab. batteries.

 

Hab. battery charging is solely via the D+ terminal on the converter interface.

 

The result is that when driving with the fridge cooling and the Alde heating switched on, the max. 5A being supplied through the converter interface is insufficient to supply the fridge and the Alde let alone do any battery charging so the hab. batteries provide the excess and become slowly depleted whilst underway.

[aandncaravan]

Arthur that isn't true that I have an issue with Sargent. They build some of the best Power Controllers/Chargers going, like the Sargent EC325 and EC328, two of the best made units we repair.

 

My issue is with the Motorhome converters/Builders, they are the ones that specify a rubbish system, exactly like the one Steve928 speaks of in the Bailey range.

 

It is the Motorhome builder that dictates to the electronics supplier the specification and the amount it should cost.

 

Sargent created the EC155 in response to a requirement and budget from the Converter/Builder. That specification from the converter was poor beyond belief. The unit doesn't perform to the standards most expect and that is the Motorhome builders/Converters fault.

 

 

As for Sterling, well that is a different matter. You don't have to pay Sterling prices to obtain better, more applicable products.

 

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

The alternator is mechanical to volts, the smart is in the ECU and EMS. So a smart alternator does not exist. On a fiat ducato start stop it is nowthere to cope whit not working when your airco is on for example. It is software into the ECU. Shame on fiat ducato of bad info to the converters how to cope with.

[Alanb]

Steve928 - 2018-01-15 10:07 AM

 

.........All power for leisure battery charging, fridge and other systems such as Alde heating are connected at the D+ terminal which is fused at 5 amps. There are no other connections forward to the cab and its electrics.......

Derek Uzzell - 2018-01-15 11:13 AM

 

That seems very odd - I would have thought the 12V demand of the fridge alone would exceed 5A

I do not have experience of he Fiat converter interface, but in my opinion, and as Steve has found, the system as described would not function as should be expected.

 

It would appear that a necessary connection to the starter battery has been omitted. I would expect that this missing? connection would be connected to the fridge relay (internal to fridge if auto select) and split charge relay which would both be operated by the D+ connection, with the possibility ofthe split charge relay being operated via the fridge relay.

 

It is possible that the supplied D+ connection is already repeated via a relay with the actual source being B+. In any event, the quoted 5A available current for charging + fridge element is obviously inadequate.

 

If the true D+ alternator field connection is loaded too highly, it is quite possible that the alternator will be reluctant to start generating.

 

Alan

[John52]

Tracker - 2018-01-14 1:01 PM

I've always been a great believer in keeping things as simple as possible because problems are easier to resolve that way and it costs less!

We agree 8-) (lol)

I guess the simplest way is connecting both batteries together via a 200A/500A relay activated by the ignition switch.

(Flooded secondary battery, hefty relay & cables to cope with some starter current)

You could pull the ignition feed wire off to keep the batteries separated if the secondary battery was very flat

I can't see it being recommended when they would rather sell a £300 B2B charger than a £10 relay :-S

But I can't see why it wouldn't work ?

[John52]

arthur49 - 2018-01-15 10:04 AM

 

I've just had an e mail from Autotrail. Smart alternators are not fitted to the Euro 6 Ducatos they convert

I'd like to know how Autotrail have managed that.

I used to make a living as a motor mechanic, but that was many years ago before all this new fangled emissions stuff came out.

I've heard its an ordinary alternator, with the so called 'intelligent' charging all done by the ECU.

I've just asked a Fiat Main Dealer if they can plug their laptop into the ECU and change it to charge normally.

But he replied 'we don't believe this is possible as it affects the emissions' :-(

[Derek Uzzell]

Even though this thread had been dormant for over 2 years when you revived it recently, I notice that the last forum logon of “arthur49” was yesterday, so you may get an answer.

[rayc]

John52 - 2021-05-13 6:54 AM

 

arthur49 - 2018-01-15 10:04 AM

 

I've just had an e mail from Autotrail. Smart alternators are not fitted to the Euro 6 Ducatos they convert

I'd like to know how Autotrail have managed that.

:-(

 

Possibly because the Autotrail in question was Euro 6b. The Smart alternator was only fitted to the 150bhp ecojet model. With the introduction of Euro 6d, I believe those that use adblue, the Smart alternator is fitted to all models as standard.

[arthur49]

John52 - 2021-05-13 6:54 AM

 

arthur49 - 2018-01-15 10:04 AM

 

I've just had an e mail from Autotrail. Smart alternators are not fitted to the Euro 6 Ducatos they convert

I'd like to know how Autotrail have managed that.

I used to make a living as a motor mechanic, but that was many years ago before all this new fangled emissions stuff came out.

I've heard its an ordinary alternator, with the so called 'intelligent' charging all done by the ECU.

I've just asked a Fiat Main Dealer if they can plug their laptop into the ECU and change it to charge normally.

But he replied 'we don't believe this is possible as it affects the emissions' :-(

Sorry John I've no idea how Autotrail managed it as well. We did proceed and buy an Autotrail PVC which did not have a smart alternator. We had so many non-electrical issues with it, we traded it in within months. We renamed it Aquatrail in view of the water issues we had!

[Robinhood]

We've discussed on here before that converters appear to be able to order their base vans with or without various options, or combinations thereof, which aren't generally available via standard pricelists (ISTR Derek's Rapido appearing not to have some "standard" option(s)).

 

Viz a Viz the smart alternator (Eco Pack), however, regardless of other info as to its installation, in current pricelists and configurators used in both Germany and the UK, it appears to be a zero-cost option across the board, that, if selected, has a note that it will have an effect on emissions data.

 

[Derek Uzzell]

Robinhood - 2021-05-13 9:42 AM

 

...(ISTR Derek's Rapido appearing not to have some "standard" option(s)).

My Rapido is a sort of mongrel.

 

It is left-hand drive but purchased through a UK dealership and its Fiat Ducato part is standard LHD with RHD-type headlamps and speedometer retro-fitted by the dealer to meet UK-registration requirements.

 

The Rapido conversion has a UK-type 230V single-MCB consumer unit (rather than the French 3-MCBs version) and would have included a ‘UK Pack’ (gas oven/grill, gas/230V Truma Combi 6E heater, cab and living-area carpets, split table) but I didn’t want the oven/grill and chose not to have the complete UK Pack rather than complicate matters by asking for just the oven/grill to be deleted.

 

There’s no doubt though that converters can order base vehicles with options that are not on standard pricelists. For example, my motorhome’s radiator-grille badge is a Rapido-special, as is the centre badge of its plastic wheel trims.

[rayc]

When 'arthur49' posted his message on 2018-01-15 at 10:04 AM that "

"I've just had an e mail from Autotrail. Smart alternators are not fitted to the Euro 6 Ducatos they convert" it was only possible to have a smart alternator on the 150bhp Ecojet model. Ordinary Euro 6b multijets of that era all had standard alternators and I doubt very much that any convertor used the Ecojet chassis in any event.

 

The across the board use of smart alternators came about with the introduction of the Euro 6d models around 2020. That is the reason that MH convertors are having to fit systems to enable efficient charging of leisure battery and fridge 12v operation when on the move. The link is to a typical B2B charger. https://www.mdsbattery.co.uk/sterling-power-12v-30a-battery-to-battery-charger-bb1230.html?gclid=CjwKCAjwnPOEBhA0EiwA609RecCbN6nsmdR63Z-_R7AKwXJUPpBXzovtNO3qwgmA8hkS9Gxv5A9dHxoCtZsQAvD_BwE

[Robinhood]

rayc - 2021-05-13 10:34 AM

 

The across the board use of smart alternators came about with the introduction of the Euro 6d models around 2020.

 

I am quoting the existence of the "Eco-Pack" (Stop/Start, smart alternator, etc.) as being a no-cost option (i.e. ostensibly deletable) from the current German (Euro6d) pricelist (dated from the end of 2020), and the current UK Ducato configurator.

 

The truth is in there somewhere..... ;-)

[Robinhood]

Derek Uzzell - 2021-05-13 10:14 AM

 

Robinhood - 2021-05-13 9:42 AM

 

...(ISTR Derek's Rapido appearing not to have some "standard" option(s)).

My Rapido is a sort of mongrel.

I was pretty sure we'd had a discussion on it being devoid of one or more base vehicle options that were ostensibly "standard" at the time. (ESP?)

[rayc]

Out and about live reported back in June 2019 that:

"The Fiat Ducato, which is the most common base vehicle converted into motorhomes across Europe, has been updated and now has engines conforming to the latest Euro 6D emissions regulations. As a result, it now uses the AdBlue additive. It also has an all-new 9-speed automatic torque converter transmission."

And went on "The new Ducato comes as standard with the new EcoPack. This includes the Start & Stop system, smart alternator and electronically-controlled fuel pump, which provide energy savings and greater combustion efficiency."

 

https://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/motorhomes/news/fiat-reveals-new-ducato

 

Perhaps there are options to remove the standard smart alternator etc. I doubt it due to the emission standards for Euro 6D but as always am happy to see anything which confirms one way or another. Motorhome converters seem to be using the standard chassis and hence the power modules they are fitting to overcome the smart element and allow habitation battery charge and fridge operation whilst on the move.

In any event I think it answers the question of how Autotrail were correct in saying they were not using chassis fitted with smart alternators in 2018.

[Derek Uzzell]

Robinhood - 2021-05-13 11:03 AM

 

Derek Uzzell - 2021-05-13 10:14 AM

 

Robinhood - 2021-05-13 9:42 AM

 

...(ISTR Derek's Rapido appearing not to have some "standard" option(s)).

My Rapido is a sort of mongrel.

I was pretty sure we'd had a discussion on it being devoid of one or more base vehicle options that were ostensibly "standard" at the time. (ESP?)

Yes, that's right.

 

Fiat's press releases suggested that ESP/ESC would be standard for Ducato X290 vehicles that began to be marketed in mid- 2014. When I was looking to buy a Rapido on a Ducato X290 base I got mixed messages about ESC when I sought advice from French motorhome dealerships, but it eventually became apparent (at least for Rapido) that, if one wanted ESC, it was a cost option integrated with Traction+.

 

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Latest-Fiat-Ducato-X290-Standard-specification-/36108/

[John52]

rayc - 2021-05-13 10:34 AM

 

When 'arthur49' posted his message on 2018-01-15 at 10:04 AM that "

"I've just had an e mail from Autotrail. Smart alternators are not fitted to the Euro 6 Ducatos they convert" it was only possible to have a smart alternator on the 150bhp Ecojet model. Ordinary Euro 6b multijets of that era all had standard alternators and I doubt very much that any convertor used the Ecojet chassis in any event.

 

The across the board use of smart alternators came about with the introduction of the Euro 6d models around 2020. That is the reason that MH convertors are having to fit systems to enable efficient charging of leisure battery and fridge 12v operation when on the move. The link is to a typical B2B charger. https://www.mdsbattery.co.uk/sterling-power-12v-30a-battery-to-battery-charger-bb1230.html?gclid=CjwKCAjwnPOEBhA0EiwA609RecCbN6nsmdR63Z-_R7AKwXJUPpBXzovtNO3qwgmA8hkS9Gxv5A9dHxoCtZsQAvD_BwE

Thanks for the update.

Presumably the 'Smart' alternator is bigger, like the battery.

But from what I have heard its still just a conventional alternator, just regulated differently by the ECU.

I looked at the B2B charger.

My experience of these things is you rarely get the amperage quoted.

But even if you do get the full 30 amps thats less than I was getting from the 150 amp alternator in my 2008 X2/50 through a simple split charger relay with 25mm2 cable.

[arthur49]

John52 - 2021-05-13 4:02 PM

 

rayc - 2021-05-13 10:34 AM

 

When 'arthur49' posted his message on 2018-01-15 at 10:04 AM that "

"I've just had an e mail from Autotrail. Smart alternators are not fitted to the Euro 6 Ducatos they convert" it was only possible to have a smart alternator on the 150bhp Ecojet model. Ordinary Euro 6b multijets of that era all had standard alternators and I doubt very much that any convertor used the Ecojet chassis in any event.

 

The across the board use of smart alternators came about with the introduction of the Euro 6d models around 2020. That is the reason that MH convertors are having to fit systems to enable efficient charging of leisure battery and fridge 12v operation when on the move. The link is to a typical B2B charger. https://www.mdsbattery.co.uk/sterling-power-12v-30a-battery-to-battery-charger-bb1230.html?gclid=CjwKCAjwnPOEBhA0EiwA609RecCbN6nsmdR63Z-_R7AKwXJUPpBXzovtNO3qwgmA8hkS9Gxv5A9dHxoCtZsQAvD_BwE

Thanks for the update.

Presumably the 'Smart' alternator is bigger, like the battery.

But from what I have heard its still just a conventional alternator, just regulated differently by the ECU.

I looked at the B2B charger.

My experience of these things is you rarely get the amperage quoted.

But even if you do get the full 30 amps thats less than I was getting from the 150 amp alternator in my 2008 X2/50 through a simple split charger relay with 25mm2 cable.

I'm not a technical expert - I leaned heavily on the expertise of the late Allan Evans.

 

Pre smart alternator van I followed his advice and upgraded cables and split charge relay, as I see you have done, and got greatly improved charging for a fraction of the cost of a B2B.

 

Current van arrived with a smart alternator so I again followed Allan Evans advice and fitted a Schaudt WA12145 in the manner suggested by Allan. This solved the poor charging and I get max amps of 45A, though it wasn't cheap (but Wildax paid me for it!)

 

This thread, page 4, gives more info on what I did, if it is of any help

 

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Improvements-to-leisure-battery-charging/50677/91/

[Steve928]

arthur49 - 2021-05-13 4:31 PM

 

Pre smart alternator van I followed his advice and upgraded cables and split charge relay, as I see you have done, and got greatly improved charging for a fraction of the cost of a B2B.

Although that approach may have given peak charge current comparable to a B2B of similar rating an alternator's constant charge voltage of 14.4V cannot charge a battery as fully as the (configurable according to battery chemistry and type) charge voltages and algorithms of a B2B, neither can it switch down to float voltage to rest an overly warm battery.

[arthur49]

Steve928 - 2021-05-13 6:43 PM

 

arthur49 - 2021-05-13 4:31 PM

 

Pre smart alternator van I followed his advice and upgraded cables and split charge relay, as I see you have done, and got greatly improved charging for a fraction of the cost of a B2B.

Although that approach may have given peak charge current comparable to a B2B of similar rating an alternator's constant charge voltage of 14.4V cannot charge a battery as fully as the (configurable according to battery chemistry and type) charge voltages and algorithms of a B2B, neither can it switch down to float voltage to rest an overly warm battery.

The battery temperature monitoring is a fair point.

 

In 2014 I think it was Dave Newell installed a Sterling 45A B2B in our then van, a Devon Aztec. It worked well and significantly improved charging. However the charging algorithm was pointless the way we used our van. I can't remember the algorithm details but from memory it was something like 14.4v for 2 hours then 13.8v for say 4 hours. But we didn't drive for more than 2 hours. We stopped, stretched our legs, had a wander, a coffee etc. So when we went back to van, started engine the algorithm clock reset and we were back to 14.4v for 2 hours etc.

 

So, apart from the temperature monitoring, the Sterling B2B had no advantage over the "thick cables, heavy duty split charge relay" approach I took in our next van. Maybe B2Bs are more sophisticated now, with a memory of previous driving leg so they can just resume rather than restart the algorithm?

[John52]

arthur49 - 2021-05-13 4:31 PM

 

This thread, page 4, gives more info on what I did, if it is of any help

 

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Improvements-to-leisure-battery-charging/50677/91/

Looks like a good piece of kit thanks. More complicated than I need but looks like a plan B if I don't get anywhere with the split charge relay.

This is the battery box on my new X2/90 E6. There is something on the earth lead that appears to be monitoring the current going to and from the battery.

[mikefitz]

The 'thing' on the battery negative post is, as you suggest, monitoring current in and out the engine battery for smart alternator control. If you connect anything to the engine battery, like a B to B, it must take its negative from the chassis, not direct from the battery post.

It seems from the picture that you disconnected the negative connection to chassis. As hinted on in the vehicle handbook, but not too clearly, disconnection and re connection should follow a procedure to avoid upsetting and possibly damaging the vehicle electronics. ( usually the air bag computer).

 

Fitting a split charge unit to a vehicle with a smart alternator is rarely successful due to the low average voltage at the vehicle battery and the possible non activation of a voltage controlled split charge, VCR, due to the low voltage. Even with a relay controlled by D+, (D+ is not easy to find on a SEVEL van), the voltage is not high enough to correctly charge the leisure system.

 

A battery to battery charger like the Victron Orion 1212 30 or the Votronic 1212-30 will load the starter battery with up to 40 amps and in turn provide the correct charge voltages and charge duration for the leisure battery.

Some B to B chargers, like the Victron Orion, have a charging algorithm that adapts the charge duration depending on leisure battery state of charge, detected by the unit when it becomes active.

 

Mike

[Steve928]

arthur49 - 2021-05-13 7:15 PM

 

..... I can't remember the algorithm details but from memory it was something like 14.4v for 2 hours then 13.8v for say 4 hours. But we didn't drive for more than 2 hours. We stopped, stretched our legs, had a wander, a coffee etc. So when we went back to van, started engine the algorithm clock reset and we were back to 14.4v for 2 hours etc...

That too is a very fair and relevant point - that does indeed happen.

[John52]

mikefitz - 2021-05-14 6:01 PM

 

The 'thing' on the battery negative post is, as you suggest, monitoring current in and out the engine battery for smart alternator control. If you connect anything to the engine battery, like a B to B, it must take its negative from the chassis, not direct from the battery post.

It seems from the picture that you disconnected the negative connection to chassis. As hinted on in the vehicle handbook, but not too clearly, disconnection and re connection should follow a procedure to avoid upsetting and possibly damaging the vehicle electronics. ( usually the air bag computer).

 

Fitting a split charge unit to a vehicle with a smart alternator is rarely successful due to the low average voltage at the vehicle battery and the possible non activation of a voltage controlled split charge, VCR, due to the low voltage. Even with a relay controlled by D+, (D+ is not easy to find on a SEVEL van), the voltage is not high enough to correctly charge the leisure system.

 

A battery to battery charger like the Victron Orion 1212 30 or the Votronic 1212-30 will load the starter battery with up to 40 amps and in turn provide the correct charge voltages and charge duration for the leisure battery.

Some B to B chargers, like the Victron Orion, have a charging algorithm that adapts the charge duration depending on leisure battery state of charge, detected by the unit when it becomes active.

 

Mike

I'm still experimenting.

Only thing I noticed from disconnecting the battery was having to enter the radio 4 digit security code.

I stuck a screwdriver between the 2 contacts on the thing on the battery negative post to bypass the it, whilst runninng the engine and monitoring the voltage at the cigar lighter socket. Because I saw a you tube video where a guy had done that to his car and said it seemed to the battery charge normally, but he didn't know what the long term effects would be. Didn't make any noticeable difference to the voltage at the cigar lighter socket when I did it.

What do you think of having a relay controlled by the ignition switch connecting the batteries together? (hefty relay & cables to cope with starter current) If the secondary battery got very flat I would pull the wire from the ignition switch off so the relay didn't operate, to avoid draining the starter battery whilst it was trying to start the engine.

 

:-S

[Keithl]

John52 - 2021-05-14 9:48 PM

 

I stuck a screwdriver between the 2 contacts on the thing on the battery negative post to bypass the it, whilst running the engine and monitoring the voltage at the cigar lighter socket.

The unit on the battery negative post is a current sensing coil (aka Hall effect coil) and will have no internal working parts. I am assuming you unplugged the harness and then shorted the pins on the actual unit, correct?

 

When you unplugged the unit you would create a fault in the Battery Monitoring System (BMS) and iirc it would then default to 'flat out' charging (it certainly did on several BMW cars I tried when at work). What was the battery voltage with the sensor unplugged?

 

Keith.