globebuster Posted April 28, 2020 Share Posted April 28, 2020 John52 - 2020-04-28 12:39 PM globebuster - 2020-04-28 12:18 PM Self isolating in your wagon - so no risk to anyone, you didn't get out once then - even for shopping? Of course I get out for shopping and exercise the same as everyone else - observing social distancing so no risk to anybody globebuster - 2020-04-28 12:18 PM You have no idea whether you're a danger, have you been tested? You might have an accident, maybe slipping on a slimy bag or tripping over your super-power hat - what then if you had to call the emergency services? By claiming others don't have the same right as you to enjoy it I've never said others don't have the same right, I'm at home so not enjoying it either - at present. It would be easy enough, but I have a moral compass. globebuster - 2020-04-28 12:18 PM My family could come and visit me - I think a couple of acres would allow us enough distance, but I discourage them. I'm sure you do but I doubt if they need any more discouragement :D Wrong again - as your favourite saying goes. They actually think I'm quite a good father....which is of course correct. globebuster - 2020-04-28 12:18 PM Perhaps you're related to that dozy t*at from Edinburgh, caught diving off Lyme Bay this weekend - 2 lifeboats, helicopter and the rest. Nope, so you're wrong again But never as wrong as your actions have been recently. globebuster - 2020-04-28 12:18 PM You know bugger all about the hospitals down here, or anything else come to that - apart from what you read in the Beano maybe. Came direct from an Official at the Hospital and was reported on Radio Cornwall - but I'm sure you know better *-) Yes I do know better actually - Thankfully there were no deaths here yesterday, that should be celebrated and not a reason for someone to visit assuming they'll be safer at the potential expense of others. I see you've defaulted to the usual selective answering ........because otherwise you cannot justify your actions :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted April 28, 2020 Share Posted April 28, 2020 jumpstart - 2020-04-28 12:41 PM Barry....That’s all very well for those who “flout” the advise, but some who are not “lifers” have sold their home and were aiming to tour before buying again. I would have been one had this arrived now. So through no fault of their own they are stuck in a van until the house market opens again. Yes, thats why I said if your not forced to live in a van. If your a full timer then its not that easy for sure. I think had I been in that situation I would have either negotiated a private spot on a hidden away CL or I would have rented a house. There really is no excuse for anyone to be away camping in beauty spots or where ever in a motorhome right now however if they have a house or flat. Thems the rules. Im not normally one for rules to be honest but in this case I totally agree with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted April 28, 2020 Share Posted April 28, 2020 Barryd999 - 2020-04-28 12:35 PM That is the kind of reaction (and worse) I think you will get if you flout the rules in a motorhome Im afraid. Its pretty indefensible really if you have a home and are not forced into the van. I really wouldnt want to be in a motorhome right now unless I was on a private field with my own tap and waste access. Even then you will be limited on shopping to what the motorhome can store so will have to make more trips. I think I can get maybe four burgers and an Ice cream in my MH Freezer. most public toilets are shut, water sources will be scarce and black waste disposal nigh on impossible. On what planet would pouring black waste into a dog pooh bin be acceptable? I know for sure if you turfed up in the upper Dales in a camper your presence would be quickly noticed and you wouldnt be there long. I believe it's called selective reasoning. It's kind of the flip side of cognitive dissonance. :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted April 28, 2020 Author Share Posted April 28, 2020 'For them, the only tolerable debate is the lockdown debate – which palpably suits the government. The Good News Bears love the lockdown debate. Why wouldn’t they? Every second you’re having the lockdown debate is a second you’re not having the debate that starts “how in the name of our necrotic self-respect are we on course to be the worst-hit country in Europe when we had so much warning?”'' ...and are surrounded by a virus impenetrable barrier of water https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/apr/28/boris-johnson-coronavirus-mug-britain-pm-cabinet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted April 28, 2020 Share Posted April 28, 2020 But not impenetrable airways barrier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted April 28, 2020 Author Share Posted April 28, 2020 jumpstart - 2020-04-28 5:22 PM But not impenetrable airways barrier. No - but still far more of a natural virus barrier than all the other major EU countries have got Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted April 28, 2020 Share Posted April 28, 2020 jumpstart - 2020-04-28 5:22 PM But not impenetrable airways barrier. But the point remains valid. The reason we have the virus is because we let in people carrying it without imposing quarantine measures on them. We still haven't. Having elected to take that path, except for an initial flurry, we did not test suspect cases, track their contacts, and quarantine both until test results showed them free of infection. Instead, we pursued the idea of developing "herd immunity" without, apparently, asking how many would be hospitalised as a result, how many of those might reasonably be expected to die, and what the relevant timescales for both might be. Then, fortunately, someone did the epidemiological modelling, with results that seemed to frighten the pants off the government. The volume of hospitalisations would have sunk the NHS without trace, and the number of deaths done likewise to the capacity for dealing with the corpses. So, abrupt change of tack to partial lockdown. But also, it seems we did not follow our own advice (compiled at substantial public expense) on handling possible pandemics, albeit that advice was in places deficient. See here: https://tinyurl.com/wm4tq2b I have great sympathy for those in this government. They are inexperienced, both in life and in government, and were elected only in December 2019, at about the same time that the Corona virus was spreading in China. They are also hampered by having been elected, and selected, on the basis that they were the people to "get Brexit done", and not the people to deal with the destructive pandemic that is ravaging our, and to a large extent the world's, health services and economies. But they have made errors of judgement that have resulted in a large number of lives being lost and, whatever the excuses advanced on their behalves, that has to be accepted. They may well emerge from this episode wiser and more capable (though I suspect a few may quietly disappear before that point is reached!) but we shall all, in the meantime, have paid (and go on paying) a high price in blood and treasure in the process. It is unfair to blame them for the chaotic and inadequate distribution of ventilators, PPE, and test facilities. That damage was done by those who preceded them, so that when, like Mother Hubbard, they went to the cupboard, they found it bare. Neither were they responsible for the present fragmentation of the NHS that has prevented centralised ordering, stocking, and distribution of the materials and equipment necessary to cope with an epidemic on the scale we are experiencing. That, too, lies with earlier administrations, though the necessity is set out in the various epidemic recommendations referred to above. Lockdown was inevitable to control the spread. Its introduction was delayed for somewhat romantic libertarian reasons, and it is that delay which is now being exposed as the main contributory factor in the number of hospitalisations and deaths we are experiencing. It could have been done earlier, as could the quarantining of our borders, but it was not - until almost too late. Surely that conclusion is inescapable? Should these issues be discussed now, rather than later? I think yes: why not? Cogito, ergo sum. :-) It is hardly likely to result in a collapse of the government if a few people on what is mainly a motorhoming forum express their views, is it? We can all learn lessons, and a little questioning and constructive criticism is ultimately beneficial, even in the remote chance that members of the government read what we say! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
globebuster Posted April 28, 2020 Share Posted April 28, 2020 52 - you may well have a point regarding the government's reaction and subsequent action in the matter. Time will tell on that, in the meantime we'll have to work with what we've got - right or wrong. But let's not confuse that with your apparent disregard for the rest of society with your actions during lockdown. And you have the gall to quote the glass house line! - Farcical Hindsight is a wonderful thing as indeed is foresight - but thank goodness we have you to guide us with your usual sweeping statements - your wealth of knowledge and sage advice on all subject's is a real benefit to mankind and all the participants on this forum. I mean look how you've had the foresight with excrement bags - what with all those public conveniences closing.......genius! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted April 28, 2020 Share Posted April 28, 2020 Brian with no accurate test ,a 14 day incubation period, what would be the point of quarantine,where would you put hundreds of thousands of people and how do you police it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted April 28, 2020 Share Posted April 28, 2020 jumpstart - 2020-04-28 7:46 PM Brian with no accurate test ,a 14 day incubation period, what would be the point of quarantine,where would you put hundreds of thousands of people and how do you police it? Brian may have other answers but quarantine is effective containment and NZ used hotels and other 'suitable places' designated by government. It was all returning citizens and is what we should have done but didn't bother. What the number of returning UK citizens has been i don't know as i've seen no figure published but doubt it was in the 'hundreds of thousands'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted April 28, 2020 Share Posted April 28, 2020 Bulletguy - 2020-04-28 8:20 PM jumpstart - 2020-04-28 7:46 PM Brian with no accurate test ,a 14 day incubation period, what would be the point of quarantine,where would you put hundreds of thousands of people and how do you police it? Brian may have other answers but quarantine is effective containment and NZ used hotels and other 'suitable places' designated by government. It was all returning citizens and is what we should have done but didn't bother. What the number of returning UK citizens has been i don't know as i've seen no figure published but doubt it was in the 'hundreds of thousands'. We had 230,000 arriving just at Heathrow per day , New Zealand was a small fraction of this. So taking all Uk airports,ferry terminals etc which hotels do you use to put 1 mil people every day in isolation for 14 days. It sounds nice but you can’t do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted April 28, 2020 Share Posted April 28, 2020 jumpstart - 2020-04-28 8:47 PM Bulletguy - 2020-04-28 8:20 PM jumpstart - 2020-04-28 7:46 PM Brian with no accurate test ,a 14 day incubation period, what would be the point of quarantine,where would you put hundreds of thousands of people and how do you police it? Brian may have other answers but quarantine is effective containment and NZ used hotels and other 'suitable places' designated by government. It was all returning citizens and is what we should have done but didn't bother. What the number of returning UK citizens has been i don't know as i've seen no figure published but doubt it was in the 'hundreds of thousands'. We had 230,000 arriving just at Heathrow per day , New Zealand was a small fraction of this. So taking all Uk airports,ferry terminals etc which hotels do you use to put 1 mil people every day in isolation for 14 days. It sounds nice but you can’t do it. That's roughly Heathrows daily average but how many of those were returning UK citizens? Heathrow is an international airport so a significant number would be in transit to their home country. If you have a link it would help if you posted it as i've not found anything showing the number of returning UK citizens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted April 29, 2020 Author Share Posted April 29, 2020 Brian Kirby - 2020-04-28 7:09 PM jumpstart - 2020-04-28 5:22 PM But not impenetrable airways barrier. But the point remains valid. The reason we have the virus is because we let in people carrying it without imposing quarantine measures on them. We still haven't. Having elected to take that path, except for an initial flurry, we did not test suspect cases, track their contacts, and quarantine both until test results showed them free of infection. Instead, we pursued the idea of developing "herd immunity" without, apparently, asking how many would be hospitalised as a result, how many of those might reasonably be expected to die, and what the relevant timescales for both might be. Then, fortunately, someone did the epidemiological modelling, with results that seemed to frighten the pants off the government. The volume of hospitalisations would have sunk the NHS without trace, and the number of deaths done likewise to the capacity for dealing with the corpses. So, abrupt change of tack to partial lockdown. But also, it seems we did not follow our own advice (compiled at substantial public expense) on handling possible pandemics, albeit that advice was in places deficient. See here: https://tinyurl.com/wm4tq2b I have great sympathy for those in this government. They are inexperienced, both in life and in government, and were elected only in December 2019, at about the same time that the Corona virus was spreading in China. They are also hampered by having been elected, and selected, on the basis that they were the people to "get Brexit done", and not the people to deal with the destructive pandemic that is ravaging our, and to a large extent the world's, health services and economies. But they have made errors of judgement that have resulted in a large number of lives being lost and, whatever the excuses advanced on their behalves, that has to be accepted. They may well emerge from this episode wiser and more capable (though I suspect a few may quietly disappear before that point is reached!) but we shall all, in the meantime, have paid (and go on paying) a high price in blood and treasure in the process. It is unfair to blame them for the chaotic and inadequate distribution of ventilators, PPE, and test facilities. That damage was done by those who preceded them, so that when, like Mother Hubbard, they went to the cupboard, they found it bare. Neither were they responsible for the present fragmentation of the NHS that has prevented centralised ordering, stocking, and distribution of the materials and equipment necessary to cope with an epidemic on the scale we are experiencing. That, too, lies with earlier administrations, though the necessity is set out in the various epidemic recommendations referred to above. Lockdown was inevitable to control the spread. Its introduction was delayed for somewhat romantic libertarian reasons, and it is that delay which is now being exposed as the main contributory factor in the number of hospitalisations and deaths we are experiencing. It could have been done earlier, as could the quarantining of our borders, but it was not - until almost too late. Surely that conclusion is inescapable? Should these issues be discussed now, rather than later? I think yes: why not? Cogito, ergo sum. :-) It is hardly likely to result in a collapse of the government if a few people on what is mainly a motorhoming forum express their views, is it? We can all learn lessons, and a little questioning and constructive criticism is ultimately beneficial, even in the remote chance that members of the government read what we say! :-D You're right Brian But I would have more respect for those 'responsible' for our catastrophe if they would at least answer a straight question like Nicola Sturgeon does. I find the Downing Street Press Briefings too nauseating to watch - but people fall for them. Not many people read your posts on here, but if they all pass it on to someone else it will spread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted April 29, 2020 Author Share Posted April 29, 2020 globebuster - 2020-04-28 7:20 PM 52 - you may well have a point regarding the government's reaction and subsequent action in the matter. Time will tell on that, in the meantime we'll have to work with what we've got - right or wrong. But let's not confuse that with your apparent disregard for the rest of society with your actions during lockdown. And you have the gall to quote the glass house line! - Farcical Hindsight is a wonderful thing as indeed is foresight - but thank goodness we have you to guide us with your usual sweeping statements - your wealth of knowledge and sage advice on all subject's is a real benefit to mankind and all the participants on this forum. I mean look how you've had the foresight with excrement bags - what with all those public conveniences closing.......genius! So, its got to the stage where even you can't maintain the ludricous assertion that BoJo has done a good job. But you still devote far more time to blaming innocent people for harmless deviations from BoJo's lockdown. Can't you see how you are being manipulated by their spin? Same Old Tory Divide and Rule Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted April 29, 2020 Share Posted April 29, 2020 Bulletguy - 2020-04-28 9:51 PM jumpstart - 2020-04-28 8:47 PM Bulletguy - 2020-04-28 8:20 PM jumpstart - 2020-04-28 7:46 PM Brian with no accurate test ,a 14 day incubation period, what would be the point of quarantine,where would you put hundreds of thousands of people and how do you police it? Brian may have other answers but quarantine is effective containment and NZ used hotels and other 'suitable places' designated by government. It was all returning citizens and is what we should have done but didn't bother. What the number of returning UK citizens has been i don't know as i've seen no figure published but doubt it was in the 'hundreds of thousands'. We had 230,000 arriving just at Heathrow per day , New Zealand was a small fraction of this. So taking all Uk airports,ferry terminals etc which hotels do you use to put 1 mil people every day in isolation for 14 days. It sounds nice but you can’t do it. That's roughly Heathrows daily average but how many of those were returning UK citizens? Heathrow is an international airport so a significant number would be in transit to their home country. If you have a link it would help if you posted it as i've not found anything showing the number of returning UK citizens. Couldn’t find information on transit passengers, maybe say half at Heathrow, 80% at Gatwick,Manchester,Belfast,Glasgow,Inverness, 100% at Victoria station,Dover,Portsmouth,Southampton, Plymouth,Liverpool and on and on. So the logistics to isolate or test before a country has shutdown or coach them somewhere is impossible. Even South Korea were only doing 200,000 per day testing. The only countries that have managed it are ether small in size or small in population like NewZealand or Singapore. The scientists (God bless them) did say there was no point in isolating passengers as many would not show symptoms for 14 days if at all. No major country in the world was set up to deal with this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted April 29, 2020 Author Share Posted April 29, 2020 jumpstart - 2020-04-29 7:32 AM Couldn’t find information on transit passengers, maybe say half at Heathrow, 80% at Gatwick,Manchester,Belfast,Glasgow,Inverness, 100% at Victoria station,Dover,Portsmouth,Southampton, Plymouth,Liverpool and on and on. So the logistics to isolate or test before a country has shutdown or coach them somewhere is impossible. Even South Korea were only doing 200,000 per day testing. The only countries that have managed it are ether small in size or small in population like NewZealand or Singapore. The scientists (God bless them) did say there was no point in isolating passengers as many would not show symptoms for 14 days if at all. No major country in the world was set up to deal with this. There would be less people coming in if they knew they would be in quarantine for 14 days. We might have had to stop them coming in faster than we could quarantine them Wouldn't have been easy but would certainly have been better than what we have got now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted April 29, 2020 Share Posted April 29, 2020 I am critical of the governments actions but the logistics were daunting. The people coming back from hols would still be entering as would the transit passengers ,the Eurostar passengers,ferry passengers, cruise liner passengers. We have difficulty enough inthis country controlling a football match so trying to isolate the best part of a million people per day.....don’t think it’s possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted April 29, 2020 Share Posted April 29, 2020 John52 - 2020-04-29 7:58 AM jumpstart - 2020-04-29 7:32 AM Couldn’t find information on transit passengers, maybe say half at Heathrow, 80% at Gatwick,Manchester,Belfast,Glasgow,Inverness, 100% at Victoria station,Dover,Portsmouth,Southampton, Plymouth,Liverpool and on and on. So the logistics to isolate or test before a country has shutdown or coach them somewhere is impossible. Even South Korea were only doing 200,000 per day testing. The only countries that have managed it are ether small in size or small in population like NewZealand or Singapore. The scientists (God bless them) did say there was no point in isolating passengers as many would not show symptoms for 14 days if at all. No major country in the world was set up to deal with this. There would be less people coming in if they knew they would be in quarantine for 14 days. We might have had to stop them coming in faster than we could quarantine them Wouldn't have been easy but would certainly have been better than what we have got now. Are you still travelling the country spreading your Loser Lefty Cr*p? *-) ....... Just askin ;-) ............ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted April 29, 2020 Author Share Posted April 29, 2020 jumpstart - 2020-04-29 8:46 AM I am critical of the governments actions but the logistics were daunting. The people coming back from hols would still be entering as would the transit passengers ,the Eurostar passengers,ferry passengers, cruise liner passengers. We have difficulty enough inthis country controlling a football match so trying to isolate the best part of a million people per day.....don’t think it’s possible. they have said they are going to do it now - so why couldn't they do it BEFORE the virus got here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted April 29, 2020 Author Share Posted April 29, 2020 pelmetman - 2020-04-29 9:00 AM John52 - 2020-04-29 7:58 AM jumpstart - 2020-04-29 7:32 AM Couldn’t find information on transit passengers, maybe say half at Heathrow, 80% at Gatwick,Manchester,Belfast,Glasgow,Inverness, 100% at Victoria station,Dover,Portsmouth,Southampton, Plymouth,Liverpool and on and on. So the logistics to isolate or test before a country has shutdown or coach them somewhere is impossible. Even South Korea were only doing 200,000 per day testing. The only countries that have managed it are ether small in size or small in population like NewZealand or Singapore. The scientists (God bless them) did say there was no point in isolating passengers as many would not show symptoms for 14 days if at all. No major country in the world was set up to deal with this. So you have learned how to phrase a leading question There would be less people coming in if they knew they would be in quarantine for 14 days. We might have had to stop them coming in faster than we could quarantine them Wouldn't have been easy but would certainly have been better than what we have got now. Are you still travelling the country spreading your Loser Lefty Cr*p? *-) ....... Just askin ;-) ............ Isn't that what they call a leading question :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted April 29, 2020 Share Posted April 29, 2020 John52 - 2020-04-29 9:41 AM jumpstart - 2020-04-29 8:46 AM I am critical of the governments actions but the logistics were daunting. The people coming back from hols would still be entering as would the transit passengers ,the Eurostar passengers,ferry passengers, cruise liner passengers. We have difficulty enough inthis country controlling a football match so trying to isolate the best part of a million people per day.....don’t think it’s possible. they have said they are going to do it now - so why couldn't they do it BEFORE the virus got here Surely now with only 15,000 people entering the country at airports,no Eurostar,no ships, it’s doable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted April 29, 2020 Share Posted April 29, 2020 First airport with virus detector. https://apple.news/AY1vNLE-GThOAu288iLLGDA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted April 29, 2020 Share Posted April 29, 2020 jumpstart - 2020-04-29 10:31 AM First airport with virus detector. https://apple.news/AY1vNLE-GThOAu288iLLGDA Horse and Bolt. They have been doing this all over the world for months. not here though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted April 29, 2020 Author Share Posted April 29, 2020 jumpstart - 2020-04-29 9:58 AM John52 - 2020-04-29 9:41 AM jumpstart - 2020-04-29 8:46 AM I am critical of the governments actions but the logistics were daunting. The people coming back from hols would still be entering as would the transit passengers ,the Eurostar passengers,ferry passengers, cruise liner passengers. We have difficulty enough inthis country controlling a football match so trying to isolate the best part of a million people per day.....don’t think it’s possible. they have said they are going to do it now - so why couldn't they do it BEFORE the virus got here Surely now with only 15,000 people entering the country at airports,no Eurostar,no ships, it’s doable. Did we have to wait till now to stop Eurostar etc *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted April 29, 2020 Share Posted April 29, 2020 Barryd999 - 2020-04-29 12:51 PM jumpstart - 2020-04-29 10:31 AM First airport with virus detector. https://apple.news/AY1vNLE-GThOAu288iLLGDA Horse and Bolt. They have been doing this all over the world for months. not here though. Have I read that right?....Bournemouth airport? that well known gateway to/from the world?...********g Bournemouth? 8-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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