Lewis Hamilton gets Political

[Birdbrain]

StuartO - 2020-06-03 5:59 PM

 

Birdbrain - 2020-06-03 5:43 PM Im struggling with how the death of Mr Floyd was 'racist' ... Looks to me with limited experience in these things its police brutality or something similar but racist ??? ... I didn't see or hear anything racist , did anyone else ??? ... Why was it racist ??? ... It seems like on here when one questions or says something its 'racist' but in reality it isnt ... Maybe those who normally puke out the racist insult can educate me

 

I have seen no evidence that the Minesota policeman did anything which definitely made his actions racist and I don't think it's helpful that so many people jump to that conclusion without evidence. His defence might well argue at his trial that he was simply trying to arrest a big man, maybe a known criminal, who was struggling and that it was irrelevant that he was black. But his actions don't look good on camera and it's right that Mr Floyd's death is investigated. It might of course also emerge that the policeman said something racist during the arrest or had a track record of being racist, we don't know. If you watch Reality TV programmes about police work in UK they are shown to have to exercise almost superhuman self-control these days - not least because there is always a risk that someone, black or non-black, has a camera on them - and indeed someone they are dealing with may be deliberately trying to provoke over-reaction or a racist comment for the recording. Doing that sort of thing is of course itself racist behaviour.

 

Agreed ... Seems our own police forces are now being blamed for Mr Floyds death ...

... All getting rather nasty by the haters

[Bulletguy]

StuartO - 2020-06-03 1:15 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2020-06-01 8:19 PM I don't think Hamilton needs 'shame' anyone into supporting as there's a lot being shown including footballers as this case is very disturbing. All racism should be stamped out but when they have a racist in the WH, what else do people expect? Having seen the brutal slow murder of George Floyd the outrage doesn't surprise me at all. Not satisfied with murdering a citizen the police also used their patrol cars to ram into people and mow them down, even shooting at journalists fgs.

 

My point was should Lewis be using his celebrity prominence to try to shame other celebrities (etc) into voicing support for his cause?

 

I agree that racism should be stamped out everywhere but one of the problems in trying to do so is the difficulty of agreeing what is and isn't racism - because there is such apparent over-sensitivity about it sometimes, not just reasonable expression of concern. I'm not suggesting it's just blacks (or should I be saying "people of colour" this week) who are too sensitive, quite the opposite almost; political correctness has led all sorts of individuals to feel entitled to get aroused or angry or worse about racism and to disapprove or even attack people they see as racists. It's just such a touchy subject you can't really risk discussing it lest someone starts snapping at you. As perhaps at me on this thread.

 

And don't we have to be careful about jumping to conclusions, for example your conclusion that George Floyd was the victim of brutal slow murder? Guilty unless proved inocent is it, because you've watched the video? Did we miss out the bit about having a fair trail before the mob gets to lynch him? I wouldn't want to be defending the policeman but George Floyd was an offender who had done time in prison, a big man who was being arrested for passing a forged note, so maybe the policeman would have needed to restrain him even after getting him handcuffed. Was Mr Floyd continuing to struggle whilst being restrained? Where is the evidence of mens rea, i.e. the intention to kill Mr Floyd? Clearly the policeman faces challenging questions about his method and his intent because Mr Floyd did die but at least he should get a fair hearing. The other policemen who were nearby but didn't intervene (one of whom was black) also have been summarily sacked and face charges - are they guilty until proved innocent too, because you've seen the video?

Yes i know what your point was though as i said i didn't think he needed 'shame' anyone into supporting as there's understandably been a huge amount shown and rightly so imo. Perhaps given his prominent status as an F1 driver known worldwide, some may not like him speaking out, i don't know. Should he have done? Why not? If some think his words were harsh or hasty they should remember he's not a politician or public speaker.

 

My reference to seeing the brutal slow murder of George Floyd was not being surprised at the public outrage....not ignoring due process of which i've always supported (after all it is how the law works, or supposed to!) in exactly the same way i cannot ever condone lynch mob mentality or any kind of inflammatory rhetoric. Similarly with the looting and rioting, i cannot support that and fwiw neither do Floyds family and BLM leaders who have spoken out against it calling for peaceful protesting. White citizens out on the streets dressed up in full combat gear, body armour and wielding military grade weaponry is just antagonising the situation.

 

I saw the full video of Floyds arrest which was taken off cctv. He was stopped at the roadside by a patrol car and exited his car (driver side) where he was cuffed. The officer then took him over to the pavement where he was told to sit down which he did. Other police cars then arrived and Floyd was brought to his feet. At no point from arrest by his car was their any resistance whatsoever.....not even a big bloke can do much with hands cuffed behind their back but there was nothing physical at all at that point. They then disappeared off camera as they walked him around the back of the patrol car and the next point the cctv picked up on was when he was on the opposite side of the car on the ground with the one officer kneeling on him, one knee on his back, the other across his neck...that casual the officer even had his hands in his pockets. By this point bystanders had gathered and Floyd kept saying he couldn't breathe. Some of the bystanders can be heard shouting "you're killing him" but the officer ignored them and kept his knee across his neck. I know Floyd had previous but this arrest was over a fake $20 note, hardly the most heinous of crimes and certainly not warranting kneeling on the guys neck when he's already restrained in handcuffs fgs!

 

We know the outcome and the autopsy states cause of death as ""cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint, and neck compression", in other words asphyxiation and declared homicide. The officer, Derek Chauvin, has been charged with third-degree murder and manslaughter and will appear in court next week. The three other police officers have been fired.

 

Racism in the US has a long history....and it's very bad. Think back to times of segregation in the 50s and 60s, Martin Luther King and Rosa Parks. I like to believe it's improved since and in some ways it has though they had to fight like hell for desegregation, helped by many outspoken white people it should be said who railed against the ugliness of racism. People like Pete Seeger who devoted his entire life as a professional musician campaigning for the civil rights movement.

 

Trumps inflammatory tweeting doesn't help matters and i do wonder if any ever realised or knew the origins of "when the looting starts the shooting starts" he tweeted on Friday? That exact quote was used by a Miami police chief back in the 60's, known for his history of racist bigotry against blacks. Why would anyone, least of all a 'politician' choose to quote a racist bigot......unless they themselves are exactly that?

[Birdbrain]

Bulletguy - 2020-06-03 6:58 PM

 

StuartO - 2020-06-03 1:15 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2020-06-01 8:19 PM I don't think Hamilton needs 'shame' anyone into supporting as there's a lot being shown including footballers as this case is very disturbing. All racism should be stamped out but when they have a racist in the WH, what else do people expect? Having seen the brutal slow murder of George Floyd the outrage doesn't surprise me at all. Not satisfied with murdering a citizen the police also used their patrol cars to ram into people and mow them down, even shooting at journalists fgs.

 

My point was should Lewis be using his celebrity prominence to try to shame other celebrities (etc) into voicing support for his cause?

 

I agree that racism should be stamped out everywhere but one of the problems in trying to do so is the difficulty of agreeing what is and isn't racism - because there is such apparent over-sensitivity about it sometimes, not just reasonable expression of concern. I'm not suggesting it's just blacks (or should I be saying "people of colour" this week) who are too sensitive, quite the opposite almost; political correctness has led all sorts of individuals to feel entitled to get aroused or angry or worse about racism and to disapprove or even attack people they see as racists. It's just such a touchy subject you can't really risk discussing it lest someone starts snapping at you. As perhaps at me on this thread.

 

And don't we have to be careful about jumping to conclusions, for example your conclusion that George Floyd was the victim of brutal slow murder? Guilty unless proved inocent is it, because you've watched the video? Did we miss out the bit about having a fair trail before the mob gets to lynch him? I wouldn't want to be defending the policeman but George Floyd was an offender who had done time in prison, a big man who was being arrested for passing a forged note, so maybe the policeman would have needed to restrain him even after getting him handcuffed. Was Mr Floyd continuing to struggle whilst being restrained? Where is the evidence of mens rea, i.e. the intention to kill Mr Floyd? Clearly the policeman faces challenging questions about his method and his intent because Mr Floyd did die but at least he should get a fair hearing. The other policemen who were nearby but didn't intervene (one of whom was black) also have been summarily sacked and face charges - are they guilty until proved innocent too, because you've seen the video?

Yes i know what your point was though as i said i didn't think he needed 'shame' anyone into supporting as there's understandably been a huge amount shown and rightly so imo. Perhaps given his prominent status as an F1 driver known worldwide, some may not like him speaking out, i don't know. Should he have done? Why not? If some think his words were harsh or hasty they should remember he's not a politician or public speaker.

 

My reference to seeing the brutal slow murder of George Floyd was not being surprised at the public outrage....not ignoring due process of which i've always supported (after all it is how the law works, or supposed to!) in exactly the same way i cannot ever condone lynch mob mentality or any kind of inflammatory rhetoric. Similarly with the looting and rioting, i cannot support that and fwiw neither do Floyds family and BLM leaders who have spoken out against it calling for peaceful protesting. White citizens out on the streets dressed up in full combat gear, body armour and wielding military grade weaponry is just antagonising the situation.

 

I saw the full video of Floyds arrest which was taken off cctv. He was stopped at the roadside by a patrol car and exited his car (driver side) where he was cuffed. The officer then took him over to the pavement where he was told to sit down which he did. Other police cars then arrived and Floyd was brought to his feet. At no point from arrest by his car was their any resistance whatsoever.....not even a big bloke can do much with hands cuffed behind their back but there was nothing physical at all at that point. They then disappeared off camera as they walked him around the back of the patrol car and the next point the cctv picked up on was when he was on the opposite side of the car on the ground with the one officer kneeling on him, one knee on his back, the other across his neck...that casual the officer even had his hands in his pockets. By this point bystanders had gathered and Floyd kept saying he couldn't breathe. Some of the bystanders can be heard shouting "you're killing him" but the officer ignored them and kept his knee across his neck. I know Floyd had previous but this arrest was over a fake $20 note, hardly the most heinous of crimes and certainly not warranting kneeling on the guys neck when he's already restrained in handcuffs fgs!

 

We know the outcome and the autopsy states cause of death as ""cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint, and neck compression", in other words asphyxiation and declared homicide. The officer, Derek Chauvin, has been charged with third-degree murder and manslaughter and will appear in court next week. The three other police officers have been fired.

 

Racism in the US has a long history....and it's very bad. Think back to times of segregation in the 50s and 60s, Martin Luther King and Rosa Parks. I like to believe it's improved since and in some ways it has though they had to fight like hell for desegregation, helped by many outspoken white people it should be said who railed against the ugliness of racism. People like Pete Seeger who devoted his entire life as a professional musician campaigning for the civil rights movement.

 

Trumps inflammatory tweeting doesn't help matters and i do wonder if any ever realised or knew the origins of "when the looting starts the shooting starts" he tweeted on Friday? That exact quote was used by a Miami police chief back in the 60's, known for his history of racist bigotry against blacks. Why would anyone, least of all a 'politician' choose to quote a racist bigot......unless they themselves are exactly that?

 

Cool youve watched the full CCTV ... Where and at what point was the racism ???

[Violet1956]

StuartO - 2020-06-03 5:42 PM

 

Some of what has been posted as comment on this thread seemed to me to be pretty much racist and I do not condone it - but those who posted those views might think otherwise and they have a right to express their views. I don't believe in "no platforming" people, as students at some universities seem to feel they are entitled to do if they disapprove.

 

Lewis seems to identify as black and let him do so as far as I'm concerned - and I don't object to him as identifying as white at the same time if he wishes.

 

The point I was raising however is whether Lewis should be calling people out to support his views or feel embarassed or shamed that they are not doing so - that's too much like oppressive coercion to me. To be fair to Lewis I think he changed his mind today, after he'd cooled down a bit. I thiink he's a great bloke as well as a superb driver; the way he always thanks and praises his team support does him real credit.

 

I agree Stuart. Lewis Hamilton is entitled to his view and to say whatever he thinks fit. To demand that others follow his lead in F1 is a step too far. However as neither you or I are black I think it likely that we have a limited capacity to understand the depth of feeling this terrible incident in the US arouses in the black community both here and in America. Trump hasn't come out of this well. He appears to have an extremely limited capacity for empathy. He continues to display narcissistic traits.

[StuartO]

Violet1956 - 2020-06-03 7:05 PM. I agree Stuart. Lewis Hamilton is entitled to his view and to say whatever he thinks fit. To demand that others follow his lead in F1 is a step too far. However as neither you or I are black I think it likely that we have a limited capacity to understand the depth of feeling this terrible incident in the US arouses in the black community both here and in America. Trump hasn't come out of this well. He appears to have an extremely limited capacity for empathy. He continues to display narcissistic traits.

 

I agree with you about Trump. Likewise about not being able to climb into black skin. Nor even American skin; the USA is a world apart from UK divided, as they say, by a common language. And the right to bear arms of course. The majority of Southerners and perhaps of all Americans ultimately do not trust their own Government and having the right to be armed is seen as their ultimate personal remedy to the scenario in which they feel personally threatened by their own Government. It‘s a world completely apart from ours.

[Bulletguy]

 

An update on this case;

 

Attorney General Keith Ellison's office on Wednesday upgraded charges to second degree murder against the former Minneapolis police officer who knelt on George Floyd's neck and charged the other three officers at the scene with aiding and abetting murder.

 

I just hope they aren't setting the bar too high and end up losing the prosecution because they cannot afford to.

 

https://www.startribune.com/ellison-will-charge-chauvin-with-2nd-degree-others-to-be-charged/570984872/

[Birdbrain]

A London update ... https://twitter.com/DarrenPlymouth/status/1268253728043347968 ... Blacks attack our police

[Birdbrain]

Violet1956 - 2020-06-03 7:05 PM

 

StuartO - 2020-06-03 5:42 PM

 

Some of what has been posted as comment on this thread seemed to me to be pretty much racist and I do not condone it - but those who posted those views might think otherwise and they have a right to express their views. I don't believe in "no platforming" people, as students at some universities seem to feel they are entitled to do if they disapprove.

 

Lewis seems to identify as black and let him do so as far as I'm concerned - and I don't object to him as identifying as white at the same time if he wishes.

 

The point I was raising however is whether Lewis should be calling people out to support his views or feel embarassed or shamed that they are not doing so - that's too much like oppressive coercion to me. To be fair to Lewis I think he changed his mind today, after he'd cooled down a bit. I thiink he's a great bloke as well as a superb driver; the way he always thanks and praises his team support does him real credit.

 

I agree Stuart. Lewis Hamilton is entitled to his view and to say whatever he thinks fit. To demand that others follow his lead in F1 is a step too far. However as neither you or I are black I think it likely that we have a limited capacity to understand the depth of feeling this terrible incident in the US arouses in the black community both here and in America. Trump hasn't come out of this well. He appears to have an extremely limited capacity for empathy. He continues to display narcissistic traits.

 

How very racist ... You dont have to be black to be outraged by what until proven looks like very , very heavy handed police handling ... Also until proven George Floyds skin colour had nothing to do with his death unless you can show it did ??? ... Its a good job we dont riot every time a white farmer is killed in South Africa or when a homosexual is thrown from a building in Pakistan or a women is stoned to death under Sharia law for inviting the rape she went through in Afghanistan , where is the outrage then ??? ... There is much hypocrisy as usual with the current situation

[Birdbrain]

StuartO - 2020-06-03 8:25 PM

 

Violet1956 - 2020-06-03 7:05 PM. I agree Stuart. Lewis Hamilton is entitled to his view and to say whatever he thinks fit. To demand that others follow his lead in F1 is a step too far. However as neither you or I are black I think it likely that we have a limited capacity to understand the depth of feeling this terrible incident in the US arouses in the black community both here and in America. Trump hasn't come out of this well. He appears to have an extremely limited capacity for empathy. He continues to display narcissistic traits.

 

I agree with you about Trump. Likewise about not being able to climb into black skin. Nor even American skin; the USA is a world apart from UK divided, as they say, by a common language. And the right to bear arms of course. The majority of Southerners and perhaps of all Americans ultimately do not trust their own Government and having the right to be armed is seen as their ultimate personal remedy to the scenario in which they feel personally threatened by their own Government. It‘s a world completely apart from ours.

 

Are you saying Americans bear arms because they feel threatened by Government ??? ... With respect Stuart Governments come and go but crime stays high whichever team is in power ... Many own guns for hunting , many belong to shooting clubs but the vast majority own guns because they feel personally threatened by crime not Government

[Birdbrain]

Meanwhile another Police Officer killed ...

... Lets hope POTUS Trump manages to show enough empathy or maybe he should show more empathy with those rioting and killing for George Floyd and in whose name this Police Officers life has been taken , its going to be a tricky one for him ... Which victim to show more empathy for ???

[Birdbrain]

Birdbrain - 2020-06-03 7:04 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2020-06-03 6:58 PM

 

StuartO - 2020-06-03 1:15 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2020-06-01 8:19 PM I don't think Hamilton needs 'shame' anyone into supporting as there's a lot being shown including footballers as this case is very disturbing. All racism should be stamped out but when they have a racist in the WH, what else do people expect? Having seen the brutal slow murder of George Floyd the outrage doesn't surprise me at all. Not satisfied with murdering a citizen the police also used their patrol cars to ram into people and mow them down, even shooting at journalists fgs.

 

My point was should Lewis be using his celebrity prominence to try to shame other celebrities (etc) into voicing support for his cause?

 

I agree that racism should be stamped out everywhere but one of the problems in trying to do so is the difficulty of agreeing what is and isn't racism - because there is such apparent over-sensitivity about it sometimes, not just reasonable expression of concern. I'm not suggesting it's just blacks (or should I be saying "people of colour" this week) who are too sensitive, quite the opposite almost; political correctness has led all sorts of individuals to feel entitled to get aroused or angry or worse about racism and to disapprove or even attack people they see as racists. It's just such a touchy subject you can't really risk discussing it lest someone starts snapping at you. As perhaps at me on this thread.

 

And don't we have to be careful about jumping to conclusions, for example your conclusion that George Floyd was the victim of brutal slow murder? Guilty unless proved inocent is it, because you've watched the video? Did we miss out the bit about having a fair trail before the mob gets to lynch him? I wouldn't want to be defending the policeman but George Floyd was an offender who had done time in prison, a big man who was being arrested for passing a forged note, so maybe the policeman would have needed to restrain him even after getting him handcuffed. Was Mr Floyd continuing to struggle whilst being restrained? Where is the evidence of mens rea, i.e. the intention to kill Mr Floyd? Clearly the policeman faces challenging questions about his method and his intent because Mr Floyd did die but at least he should get a fair hearing. The other policemen who were nearby but didn't intervene (one of whom was black) also have been summarily sacked and face charges - are they guilty until proved innocent too, because you've seen the video?

Yes i know what your point was though as i said i didn't think he needed 'shame' anyone into supporting as there's understandably been a huge amount shown and rightly so imo. Perhaps given his prominent status as an F1 driver known worldwide, some may not like him speaking out, i don't know. Should he have done? Why not? If some think his words were harsh or hasty they should remember he's not a politician or public speaker.

 

My reference to seeing the brutal slow murder of George Floyd was not being surprised at the public outrage....not ignoring due process of which i've always supported (after all it is how the law works, or supposed to!) in exactly the same way i cannot ever condone lynch mob mentality or any kind of inflammatory rhetoric. Similarly with the looting and rioting, i cannot support that and fwiw neither do Floyds family and BLM leaders who have spoken out against it calling for peaceful protesting. White citizens out on the streets dressed up in full combat gear, body armour and wielding military grade weaponry is just antagonising the situation.

 

I saw the full video of Floyds arrest which was taken off cctv. He was stopped at the roadside by a patrol car and exited his car (driver side) where he was cuffed. The officer then took him over to the pavement where he was told to sit down which he did. Other police cars then arrived and Floyd was brought to his feet. At no point from arrest by his car was their any resistance whatsoever.....not even a big bloke can do much with hands cuffed behind their back but there was nothing physical at all at that point. They then disappeared off camera as they walked him around the back of the patrol car and the next point the cctv picked up on was when he was on the opposite side of the car on the ground with the one officer kneeling on him, one knee on his back, the other across his neck...that casual the officer even had his hands in his pockets. By this point bystanders had gathered and Floyd kept saying he couldn't breathe. Some of the bystanders can be heard shouting "you're killing him" but the officer ignored them and kept his knee across his neck. I know Floyd had previous but this arrest was over a fake $20 note, hardly the most heinous of crimes and certainly not warranting kneeling on the guys neck when he's already restrained in handcuffs fgs!

 

We know the outcome and the autopsy states cause of death as ""cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint, and neck compression", in other words asphyxiation and declared homicide. The officer, Derek Chauvin, has been charged with third-degree murder and manslaughter and will appear in court next week. The three other police officers have been fired.

 

Racism in the US has a long history....and it's very bad. Think back to times of segregation in the 50s and 60s, Martin Luther King and Rosa Parks. I like to believe it's improved since and in some ways it has though they had to fight like hell for desegregation, helped by many outspoken white people it should be said who railed against the ugliness of racism. People like Pete Seeger who devoted his entire life as a professional musician campaigning for the civil rights movement.

 

Trumps inflammatory tweeting doesn't help matters and i do wonder if any ever realised or knew the origins of "when the looting starts the shooting starts" he tweeted on Friday? That exact quote was used by a Miami police chief back in the 60's, known for his history of racist bigotry against blacks. Why would anyone, least of all a 'politician' choose to quote a racist bigot......unless they themselves are exactly that?

 

Cool youve watched the full CCTV ... Where and at what point was the racism ???

 

Managed to look through it yet ???

[StuartO]

Birdbrain - 2020-06-04 6:33 AM Are you saying Americans bear arms because they feel threatened by Government ??? ... With respect Stuart Governments come and go but crime stays high whichever team is in power ... Many own guns for hunting , many belong to shooting clubs but the vast majority own guns because they feel personally threatened by crime not Government

 

Yes. And what you say is also true. It's a mixture of both motivations - but the prevelance of people who simply don't trust anyone, especially officialdom, to protect them and their families, so they own firearms, is much higher than we Brits can conceive. It's a different world. Their country was wild and relatively underpopulated and its not much older than my previous home. Simplistic solutions for America's gun problems conceived from a British or Eurpean viewpoint will not compute.

 

But I'm sidetracking, let's keep to the issue of Floyd's death and Lewis Hamilton's call to arms.

[Birdbrain]

StuartO - 2020-06-04 7:54 AM

 

Birdbrain - 2020-06-04 6:33 AM Are you saying Americans bear arms because they feel threatened by Government ??? ... With respect Stuart Governments come and go but crime stays high whichever team is in power ... Many own guns for hunting , many belong to shooting clubs but the vast majority own guns because they feel personally threatened by crime not Government

 

Yes. And what you say is also true. It's a mixture of both motivations - but the prevelance of people who simply don't trust anyone, especially officialdom, to protect them and their families, so they own firearms, is much higher than we Brits can conceive. It's a different world. Their country was wild and relatively underpopulated and its not much older than my previous home. Simplistic solutions for America's gun problems conceived from a British or Eurpean viewpoint will not compute.

 

But I'm sidetracking, let's keep to the issue of Floyd's death and Lewis Hamilton's call to arms.

 

Final point on the gun situation ... We in the UK have a major problem with guns and knives , my SIL is a Detective Sergeant in Bradford and would tell you things to make your hair curl ... Guns and knives are rife and easily available ... I dont believe we here in the UK are really in any position to question Americas gun issues

[Birdbrain]

Maybe because we aren't black we dont understand the death of this brave policeman ??? ... https://twitter.com/BlondieKAG/status/1268300526648729602

[Bulletguy]

StuartO - 2020-06-04 7:54 AM

 

Birdbrain - 2020-06-04 6:33 AM Are you saying Americans bear arms because they feel threatened by Government ??? ... With respect Stuart Governments come and go but crime stays high whichever team is in power ... Many own guns for hunting , many belong to shooting clubs but the vast majority own guns because they feel personally threatened by crime not Government

 

.....let's keep to the issue of Floyd's death and Lewis Hamilton's call to arms.

That's a huge leap from "calling out others in F1 to make some noise rather than remain silent" as you originally wrote Stuart! :-S

 

Mercedes F1 team boss, Toto Wolff, has voiced his support of Hamilton.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/52883248

[Guest pelmetman]

Bulletguy - 2020-06-04 4:05 PM

 

StuartO - 2020-06-04 7:54 AM

 

Birdbrain - 2020-06-04 6:33 AM Are you saying Americans bear arms because they feel threatened by Government ??? ... With respect Stuart Governments come and go but crime stays high whichever team is in power ... Many own guns for hunting , many belong to shooting clubs but the vast majority own guns because they feel personally threatened by crime not Government

 

.....let's keep to the issue of Floyd's death and Lewis Hamilton's call to arms.

That's a huge leap from "calling out others in F1 to make some noise rather than remain silent" as you originally wrote Stuart! :-S

 

Mercedes F1 team boss, Toto Wolff, has voiced his support of Hamilton.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/52883248

 

No doubt Mr Wolff and Hamilton will condem BAME on BAME killings with the same eagerness? :-| ........

 

At least Mr Floyd's killers are in prison awaiting trial.......unlike many of those BAME who have died from BAME gangs in London this year........

 

Or do "Black Lives Matter"......Only when they're killed by white people? 8-) ........

 

 

[StuartO]

Bulletguy - 2020-06-04 4:05 PM

 

StuartO - 2020-06-04 7:54 AM

 

Birdbrain - 2020-06-04 6:33 AM Are you saying Americans bear arms because they feel threatened by Government ??? ... With respect Stuart Governments come and go but crime stays high whichever team is in power ... Many own guns for hunting , many belong to shooting clubs but the vast majority own guns because they feel personally threatened by crime not Government

 

.....let's keep to the issue of Floyd's death and Lewis Hamilton's call to arms.

That's a huge leap from "calling out others in F1 to make some noise rather than remain silent" as you originally wrote Stuart! :-S

 

Mercedes F1 team boss, Toto Wolff, has voiced his support of Hamilton.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/52883248

 

I was using metaphor; please don't assume I was accusing Lewis of telling people to start shooting!

[Bulletguy]

StuartO - 2020-06-04 4:51 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2020-06-04 4:05 PM

 

StuartO - 2020-06-04 7:54 AM

 

Birdbrain - 2020-06-04 6:33 AM Are you saying Americans bear arms because they feel threatened by Government ??? ... With respect Stuart Governments come and go but crime stays high whichever team is in power ... Many own guns for hunting , many belong to shooting clubs but the vast majority own guns because they feel personally threatened by crime not Government

 

.....let's keep to the issue of Floyd's death and Lewis Hamilton's call to arms.

That's a huge leap from "calling out others in F1 to make some noise rather than remain silent" as you originally wrote Stuart! :-S

 

Mercedes F1 team boss, Toto Wolff, has voiced his support of Hamilton.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/52883248

 

I was using metaphor; please don't assume I was accusing Lewis of telling people to start shooting!

I did wonder hence the exclamation and emoji! (lol)

[Birdbrain]

Birdbrain - 2020-06-04 6:51 AM

 

Birdbrain - 2020-06-03 7:04 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2020-06-03 6:58 PM

 

StuartO - 2020-06-03 1:15 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2020-06-01 8:19 PM I don't think Hamilton needs 'shame' anyone into supporting as there's a lot being shown including footballers as this case is very disturbing. All racism should be stamped out but when they have a racist in the WH, what else do people expect? Having seen the brutal slow murder of George Floyd the outrage doesn't surprise me at all. Not satisfied with murdering a citizen the police also used their patrol cars to ram into people and mow them down, even shooting at journalists fgs.

 

My point was should Lewis be using his celebrity prominence to try to shame other celebrities (etc) into voicing support for his cause?

 

I agree that racism should be stamped out everywhere but one of the problems in trying to do so is the difficulty of agreeing what is and isn't racism - because there is such apparent over-sensitivity about it sometimes, not just reasonable expression of concern. I'm not suggesting it's just blacks (or should I be saying "people of colour" this week) who are too sensitive, quite the opposite almost; political correctness has led all sorts of individuals to feel entitled to get aroused or angry or worse about racism and to disapprove or even attack people they see as racists. It's just such a touchy subject you can't really risk discussing it lest someone starts snapping at you. As perhaps at me on this thread.

 

And don't we have to be careful about jumping to conclusions, for example your conclusion that George Floyd was the victim of brutal slow murder? Guilty unless proved inocent is it, because you've watched the video? Did we miss out the bit about having a fair trail before the mob gets to lynch him? I wouldn't want to be defending the policeman but George Floyd was an offender who had done time in prison, a big man who was being arrested for passing a forged note, so maybe the policeman would have needed to restrain him even after getting him handcuffed. Was Mr Floyd continuing to struggle whilst being restrained? Where is the evidence of mens rea, i.e. the intention to kill Mr Floyd? Clearly the policeman faces challenging questions about his method and his intent because Mr Floyd did die but at least he should get a fair hearing. The other policemen who were nearby but didn't intervene (one of whom was black) also have been summarily sacked and face charges - are they guilty until proved innocent too, because you've seen the video?

Yes i know what your point was though as i said i didn't think he needed 'shame' anyone into supporting as there's understandably been a huge amount shown and rightly so imo. Perhaps given his prominent status as an F1 driver known worldwide, some may not like him speaking out, i don't know. Should he have done? Why not? If some think his words were harsh or hasty they should remember he's not a politician or public speaker.

 

My reference to seeing the brutal slow murder of George Floyd was not being surprised at the public outrage....not ignoring due process of which i've always supported (after all it is how the law works, or supposed to!) in exactly the same way i cannot ever condone lynch mob mentality or any kind of inflammatory rhetoric. Similarly with the looting and rioting, i cannot support that and fwiw neither do Floyds family and BLM leaders who have spoken out against it calling for peaceful protesting. White citizens out on the streets dressed up in full combat gear, body armour and wielding military grade weaponry is just antagonising the situation.

 

I saw the full video of Floyds arrest which was taken off cctv. He was stopped at the roadside by a patrol car and exited his car (driver side) where he was cuffed. The officer then took him over to the pavement where he was told to sit down which he did. Other police cars then arrived and Floyd was brought to his feet. At no point from arrest by his car was their any resistance whatsoever.....not even a big bloke can do much with hands cuffed behind their back but there was nothing physical at all at that point. They then disappeared off camera as they walked him around the back of the patrol car and the next point the cctv picked up on was when he was on the opposite side of the car on the ground with the one officer kneeling on him, one knee on his back, the other across his neck...that casual the officer even had his hands in his pockets. By this point bystanders had gathered and Floyd kept saying he couldn't breathe. Some of the bystanders can be heard shouting "you're killing him" but the officer ignored them and kept his knee across his neck. I know Floyd had previous but this arrest was over a fake $20 note, hardly the most heinous of crimes and certainly not warranting kneeling on the guys neck when he's already restrained in handcuffs fgs!

 

We know the outcome and the autopsy states cause of death as ""cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint, and neck compression", in other words asphyxiation and declared homicide. The officer, Derek Chauvin, has been charged with third-degree murder and manslaughter and will appear in court next week. The three other police officers have been fired.

 

Racism in the US has a long history....and it's very bad. Think back to times of segregation in the 50s and 60s, Martin Luther King and Rosa Parks. I like to believe it's improved since and in some ways it has though they had to fight like hell for desegregation, helped by many outspoken white people it should be said who railed against the ugliness of racism. People like Pete Seeger who devoted his entire life as a professional musician campaigning for the civil rights movement.

 

Trumps inflammatory tweeting doesn't help matters and i do wonder if any ever realised or knew the origins of "when the looting starts the shooting starts" he tweeted on Friday? That exact quote was used by a Miami police chief back in the 60's, known for his history of racist bigotry against blacks. Why would anyone, least of all a 'politician' choose to quote a racist bigot......unless they themselves are exactly that?

 

Cool youve watched the full CCTV ... Where and at what point was the racism ???

 

Managed to look through it yet ???

 

3rd time of asking ... You managed to check up on the racist bit yet

[Birdbrain]

One good thing to come out of this is that a lot of black Americans are guna have a nice new pair of Nike trainers ...

... Maybe because Im not black I dont understand the connection between Mr Floyds death and new shiny Nike trainers

[Birdbrain]

Birdbrain - 2020-06-04 5:46 PM

 

Birdbrain - 2020-06-04 6:51 AM

 

Birdbrain - 2020-06-03 7:04 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2020-06-03 6:58 PM

 

StuartO - 2020-06-03 1:15 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2020-06-01 8:19 PM I don't think Hamilton needs 'shame' anyone into supporting as there's a lot being shown including footballers as this case is very disturbing. All racism should be stamped out but when they have a racist in the WH, what else do people expect? Having seen the brutal slow murder of George Floyd the outrage doesn't surprise me at all. Not satisfied with murdering a citizen the police also used their patrol cars to ram into people and mow them down, even shooting at journalists fgs.

 

My point was should Lewis be using his celebrity prominence to try to shame other celebrities (etc) into voicing support for his cause?

 

I agree that racism should be stamped out everywhere but one of the problems in trying to do so is the difficulty of agreeing what is and isn't racism - because there is such apparent over-sensitivity about it sometimes, not just reasonable expression of concern. I'm not suggesting it's just blacks (or should I be saying "people of colour" this week) who are too sensitive, quite the opposite almost; political correctness has led all sorts of individuals to feel entitled to get aroused or angry or worse about racism and to disapprove or even attack people they see as racists. It's just such a touchy subject you can't really risk discussing it lest someone starts snapping at you. As perhaps at me on this thread.

 

And don't we have to be careful about jumping to conclusions, for example your conclusion that George Floyd was the victim of brutal slow murder? Guilty unless proved inocent is it, because you've watched the video? Did we miss out the bit about having a fair trail before the mob gets to lynch him? I wouldn't want to be defending the policeman but George Floyd was an offender who had done time in prison, a big man who was being arrested for passing a forged note, so maybe the policeman would have needed to restrain him even after getting him handcuffed. Was Mr Floyd continuing to struggle whilst being restrained? Where is the evidence of mens rea, i.e. the intention to kill Mr Floyd? Clearly the policeman faces challenging questions about his method and his intent because Mr Floyd did die but at least he should get a fair hearing. The other policemen who were nearby but didn't intervene (one of whom was black) also have been summarily sacked and face charges - are they guilty until proved innocent too, because you've seen the video?

Yes i know what your point was though as i said i didn't think he needed 'shame' anyone into supporting as there's understandably been a huge amount shown and rightly so imo. Perhaps given his prominent status as an F1 driver known worldwide, some may not like him speaking out, i don't know. Should he have done? Why not? If some think his words were harsh or hasty they should remember he's not a politician or public speaker.

 

My reference to seeing the brutal slow murder of George Floyd was not being surprised at the public outrage....not ignoring due process of which i've always supported (after all it is how the law works, or supposed to!) in exactly the same way i cannot ever condone lynch mob mentality or any kind of inflammatory rhetoric. Similarly with the looting and rioting, i cannot support that and fwiw neither do Floyds family and BLM leaders who have spoken out against it calling for peaceful protesting. White citizens out on the streets dressed up in full combat gear, body armour and wielding military grade weaponry is just antagonising the situation.

 

I saw the full video of Floyds arrest which was taken off cctv. He was stopped at the roadside by a patrol car and exited his car (driver side) where he was cuffed. The officer then took him over to the pavement where he was told to sit down which he did. Other police cars then arrived and Floyd was brought to his feet. At no point from arrest by his car was their any resistance whatsoever.....not even a big bloke can do much with hands cuffed behind their back but there was nothing physical at all at that point. They then disappeared off camera as they walked him around the back of the patrol car and the next point the cctv picked up on was when he was on the opposite side of the car on the ground with the one officer kneeling on him, one knee on his back, the other across his neck...that casual the officer even had his hands in his pockets. By this point bystanders had gathered and Floyd kept saying he couldn't breathe. Some of the bystanders can be heard shouting "you're killing him" but the officer ignored them and kept his knee across his neck. I know Floyd had previous but this arrest was over a fake $20 note, hardly the most heinous of crimes and certainly not warranting kneeling on the guys neck when he's already restrained in handcuffs fgs!

 

We know the outcome and the autopsy states cause of death as ""cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint, and neck compression", in other words asphyxiation and declared homicide. The officer, Derek Chauvin, has been charged with third-degree murder and manslaughter and will appear in court next week. The three other police officers have been fired.

 

Racism in the US has a long history....and it's very bad. Think back to times of segregation in the 50s and 60s, Martin Luther King and Rosa Parks. I like to believe it's improved since and in some ways it has though they had to fight like hell for desegregation, helped by many outspoken white people it should be said who railed against the ugliness of racism. People like Pete Seeger who devoted his entire life as a professional musician campaigning for the civil rights movement.

 

Trumps inflammatory tweeting doesn't help matters and i do wonder if any ever realised or knew the origins of "when the looting starts the shooting starts" he tweeted on Friday? That exact quote was used by a Miami police chief back in the 60's, known for his history of racist bigotry against blacks. Why would anyone, least of all a 'politician' choose to quote a racist bigot......unless they themselves are exactly that?

 

Cool youve watched the full CCTV ... Where and at what point was the racism ???

 

Managed to look through it yet ???

 

3rd time of asking ... You managed to check up on the racist bit yet

 

Nudge

[Guest pelmetman]

pelmetman - 2020-06-04 4:20 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2020-06-04 4:05 PM

 

StuartO - 2020-06-04 7:54 AM

 

Birdbrain - 2020-06-04 6:33 AM Are you saying Americans bear arms because they feel threatened by Government ??? ... With respect Stuart Governments come and go but crime stays high whichever team is in power ... Many own guns for hunting , many belong to shooting clubs but the vast majority own guns because they feel personally threatened by crime not Government

 

.....let's keep to the issue of Floyd's death and Lewis Hamilton's call to arms.

That's a huge leap from "calling out others in F1 to make some noise rather than remain silent" as you originally wrote Stuart! :-S

 

Mercedes F1 team boss, Toto Wolff, has voiced his support of Hamilton.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/52883248

 

No doubt Mr Wolff and Hamilton will condem BAME on BAME killings with the same eagerness? :-| ........

 

At least Mr Floyd's killers are in prison awaiting trial.......unlike many of those BAME who have died from BAME gangs in London this year........

 

Or do "Black Lives Matter"......Only when they're killed by white people? 8-) ........

 

 

Bullet bump?.......

 

 

[Bulletguy]

pelmetman - 2020-06-04 7:34 PM

 

pelmetman - 2020-06-04 4:20 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2020-06-04 4:05 PM

 

StuartO - 2020-06-04 7:54 AM

 

Birdbrain - 2020-06-04 6:33 AM Are you saying Americans bear arms because they feel threatened by Government ??? ... With respect Stuart Governments come and go but crime stays high whichever team is in power ... Many own guns for hunting , many belong to shooting clubs but the vast majority own guns because they feel personally threatened by crime not Government

 

.....let's keep to the issue of Floyd's death and Lewis Hamilton's call to arms.

That's a huge leap from "calling out others in F1 to make some noise rather than remain silent" as you originally wrote Stuart! :-S

 

Mercedes F1 team boss, Toto Wolff, has voiced his support of Hamilton.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/52883248

 

No doubt Mr Wolff and Hamilton will condem BAME on BAME killings with the same eagerness? :-| ........

 

At least Mr Floyd's killers are in prison awaiting trial.......unlike many of those BAME who have died from BAME gangs in London this year........

 

Or do "Black Lives Matter"......Only when they're killed by white people? 8-) ........

 

 

Bullet bump?.......

Try staying on thread topic instead of your usual silly whataboutery game of disrupt and deflect. :-|

[Guest pelmetman]

Bulletguy - 2020-06-04 8:13 PM

 

pelmetman - 2020-06-04 7:34 PM

 

pelmetman - 2020-06-04 4:20 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2020-06-04 4:05 PM

 

StuartO - 2020-06-04 7:54 AM

 

Birdbrain - 2020-06-04 6:33 AM Are you saying Americans bear arms because they feel threatened by Government ??? ... With respect Stuart Governments come and go but crime stays high whichever team is in power ... Many own guns for hunting , many belong to shooting clubs but the vast majority own guns because they feel personally threatened by crime not Government

 

.....let's keep to the issue of Floyd's death and Lewis Hamilton's call to arms.

That's a huge leap from "calling out others in F1 to make some noise rather than remain silent" as you originally wrote Stuart! :-S

 

Mercedes F1 team boss, Toto Wolff, has voiced his support of Hamilton.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/52883248

 

No doubt Mr Wolff and Hamilton will condem BAME on BAME killings with the same eagerness? :-| ........

 

At least Mr Floyd's killers are in prison awaiting trial.......unlike many of those BAME who have died from BAME gangs in London this year........

 

Or do "Black Lives Matter"......Only when they're killed by white people? 8-) ........

 

 

Bullet bump?.......

Try staying on thread topic instead of your usual silly whataboutery game of disrupt and deflect. :-|

 

As per usual you Socialist/Communists/Sh*t stirrers avoid the inconvienent question *-) .......

 

 

 

 

[Bulletguy]

pelmetman - 2020-06-04 9:29 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2020-06-04 8:13 PM

 

pelmetman - 2020-06-04 7:34 PM

 

pelmetman - 2020-06-04 4:20 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2020-06-04 4:05 PM

 

StuartO - 2020-06-04 7:54 AM

 

Birdbrain - 2020-06-04 6:33 AM Are you saying Americans bear arms because they feel threatened by Government ??? ... With respect Stuart Governments come and go but crime stays high whichever team is in power ... Many own guns for hunting , many belong to shooting clubs but the vast majority own guns because they feel personally threatened by crime not Government

 

.....let's keep to the issue of Floyd's death and Lewis Hamilton's call to arms.

That's a huge leap from "calling out others in F1 to make some noise rather than remain silent" as you originally wrote Stuart! :-S

 

Mercedes F1 team boss, Toto Wolff, has voiced his support of Hamilton.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/52883248

 

No doubt Mr Wolff and Hamilton will condem BAME on BAME killings with the same eagerness? :-| ........

 

At least Mr Floyd's killers are in prison awaiting trial.......unlike many of those BAME who have died from BAME gangs in London this year........

 

Or do "Black Lives Matter"......Only when they're killed by white people? 8-) ........

 

 

Bullet bump?.......

Try staying on thread topic instead of your usual silly whataboutery game of disrupt and deflect. :-|

 

As per usual you Socialist/Communists/Sh*t stirrers avoid the inconvienent question *-) .......

The only 'inconvenient question' is why you, and your chum, regularly disrupt threads with off topic whataboutery? Stuarts thread was about Lewis Hamilton speaking out over a homicide in the US where four police officers have now been charged. It is not about BAME gangs in London. If you want to discuss that....then make a thread about it and stop hijacking other fm's threads.