trialsrider Posted January 7, 2022 Author Share Posted January 7, 2022 John52 - 2022-01-07 5:56 AM trialsrider - 2022-01-06 8:48 PM Would it be right to assume then that this leak is probably on the right side of the van as the corrugations on the van floor would stop it migrating left even with the incline. No because the corrugations don't run the full length of the floor. (I still have my X2/50 which has started a new life as a garden shed after stripping out to use the inside in the X2/90, so have just been out to look at the bare floor) But with the van sloping right to left water would flow to left corner if there was a break in the corrugations. I think this means that the leak is right sided and towards the rear of the van hence it is not flowing left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laimeduck Posted January 7, 2022 Share Posted January 7, 2022 Well surely, you can test for this by putting a leveling ramp under each rear wheel in turn and making the van absolutely level, then waiting for it to rain (or play a sprinkler hose over the van roof). Use tissue indicators (as below) to see which side gets wet first. I have dealt with several leaks in my Benimar, and it strikes me it is never straightforward! Trial and error and lots of toilet tissue strips placed in places to see if they get wet in an attempt to narrow down the source of the leak. Do the same with tissue strips in the areas where you think the leak my be coming from eg those potential ingress points you listed "On my the right hand side of my roof I have 1 solar panel which is sikaflexed and screwed. Half a mini heki with the other half being on the left side and a solar cable gland. On the right side of the van I have one domestic opening window. Any of these could be the culprits. I'm also wondering if water could get in via the plastic side guards which run the bottom length of the van as they are just popped on. Any other suggestions where it could come from ?" I'm not convinced a damp meter will be of much use in your case, (It didn't help with my leaks and was a waste of money) but I guess its all data to narrow down the source of the water? Jeremy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 7, 2022 Share Posted January 7, 2022 How is the van oriented vis a vis the prevailing winds? I'm just wondering which parts of the van the rain usually hits? Front, rear, right or left. Is there a fridge, and are there fridge vent grilles in the side of the van? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trialsrider Posted January 7, 2022 Author Share Posted January 7, 2022 Brian Kirby - 2022-01-07 9:45 AM How is the van oriented vis a vis the prevailing winds? I'm just wondering which parts of the van the rain usually hits? Front, rear, right or left. Is there a fridge, and are there fridge vent grilles in the side of the van? The right side is mainly shielded by a 6ft wall which is very close to the van. The right side certainly doesn't get much sun in winter either so would be considerably colder than the left No gas fridge vents as it is a compressor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted January 7, 2022 Share Posted January 7, 2022 Gareth has also started a separate thread about the sealing of his Seitz windows which may be directly related... https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Seitz-S4-Windows-Sealing-outside-edge/59435/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 7, 2022 Share Posted January 7, 2022 trialsrider - 2022-01-07 9:49 AM Brian Kirby - 2022-01-07 9:45 AM How is the van oriented vis a vis the prevailing winds? I'm just wondering which parts of the van the rain usually hits? Front, rear, right or left. Is there a fridge, and are there fridge vent grilles in the side of the van? The right side is mainly shielded by a 6ft wall which is very close to the van. The right side certainly doesn't get much sun in winter either so would be considerably colder than the left No gas fridge vents as it is a compressor. Yes, but in terms of orientation? I.e. is the nose of the van N, S, E, or W, or between? It is nose high, and leans right. The leak is bottom right rear, so just inside the rear doors. Water on the roof will tend to flow downslope (toward the rear) and, with the tilt, toward the right side of the van. So, right hand rear door door seals?? The rear cill appears smooth, so water accumulating around the bottom of the door may be drawn past a poorly fitting seal by capillary attraction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trialsrider Posted January 7, 2022 Author Share Posted January 7, 2022 Brian Kirby - 2022-01-07 10:21 AM trialsrider - 2022-01-07 9:49 AM Brian Kirby - 2022-01-07 9:45 AM How is the van oriented vis a vis the prevailing winds? I'm just wondering which parts of the van the rain usually hits? Front, rear, right or left. Is there a fridge, and are there fridge vent grilles in the side of the van? The right side is mainly shielded by a 6ft wall which is very close to the van. The right side certainly doesn't get much sun in winter either so would be considerably colder than the left No gas fridge vents as it is a compressor. Yes, but in terms of orientation? I.e. is the nose of the van N, S, E, or W, or between? It is nose high, and leans right. The leak is bottom right rear, so just inside the rear doors. Water on the roof will tend to flow downslope (toward the rear) and, with the tilt, toward the right side of the van. So, right hand rear door door seals?? The rear cill appears smooth, so water accumulating around the bottom of the door may be drawn past a poorly fitting seal by capillary attraction. Van nose faces eastwards. Van leans right to left with nose up. That's why I'm confident leak is right side in origin. It's not from rear doors as I've been in the garage of van during rain and nothing has come past seals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 7, 2022 Share Posted January 7, 2022 trialsrider - 2022-01-07 4:48 PM,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Van nose faces eastwards. Van leans right to left with nose up. That's why I'm confident leak is right side in origin. It's not from rear doors as I've been in the garage of van during rain and nothing has come past seals. That is a bit odd. The rear of the van, where the water accumulates, faces West. The South side of the van is to some extent sheltered by the wall. Yet, the South West corner (which, with that orientation, would ordinarily be the corner that catches the worst of any rain), remains dry despite being lower than the North West corner, where the water accumulates. One would expect the water to accumulate at the lowest point, which would be the South West corner. So, yes, logically, that does suggest leakage on the right (South, but more sheltered) side of the van which then runs downslope along the corrugations in the floor. I note your reference to the window in the right side of the van, and that there is silicone sealant along the top edge of the Seitz window. This would be a good area to investigate. As can be seen from Derek's link, the frame is split and relies on a supplementary inner timber (probably), plastic or aluminium frame being fitted inside to pack out the depth of the window opening sufficient to compress the sealant bead and create a weatherproof joint. As the inner and outer portions of the Seitz frame are screwed together to effect this compression it seems possible that the timber packing frame is below spec (or that the screws were insufficiently tightened) to adequately compress the sealant. That may be the reason for the added silicone. The screw covers should come off fairly easily - I suspect they will be recessed type, so a bit of strong adhesive tape should give enough grip to pull them free. Then, with the screw heads accessible, try removing the lower screws one at a time to see if any show corrosion (indicating possible leakage), and then replace before taking out another. Note the warning about over-tightening, but also try turning the screws to tighten a little - to gauge how fully they have been tightened. If they won't tighten a bit they are probably already fully driven home. If that is the case I'd begin to suspect that the packing frame is too thin. On our van, and several others I've seen, the frame sealant has exuded from the outer flange of the outer frame all round the opening and been tooled to a smooth finish externally. So silicone the would be superfluous and there would be little to hold the silicone in place. You might be able to remove the inner portion of the split frame leaving the outer portion held in place by the sealant, so as to measure the thickness of the packing frame against Seitz's dimensions. If they are lean, then it seems the window must be removed entirely, all old sealant and silicone removed from bodywork and frame, some additional packing applied inside, and the whole re-installed with adequate sealant to exude from around the frame when the screws are re-tightened. For which, you're going to need shelter from rain or a bit of reliably dry weather! Possibly not a job for Wales in winter - unless you can get the van under cover! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted January 7, 2022 Share Posted January 7, 2022 Gareth, Can you tie a tarp over the van roof and offending window to prevent any further rain falling on it and hopefully identify it as the cause of your leak? Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trialsrider Posted January 7, 2022 Author Share Posted January 7, 2022 Thanks for everyone's replies. Brian that is a very detailed explanation. Thanks. Yes it could be the window. But today I did manage to get my hand through into the lower body panel under the window. I removed one of the clip on blanking plates at the bottom of the panel near the floor. It was bone dry as was the insulation. But maybe it is tracking along towards the rear of the van somewhere higher up than where I could get my hand in. I could only reach up 6 inches. I may remove that top bead of silicone and temporally silicone all edges leaving a small section at the bottom for any moisture to escape. Water won't track upwards. At least I would know if it is the culprit before attempting to remove window. I have a sneaky suspicion the converter hasn't used a non setting sealant so removal may be very tricky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trialsrider Posted January 7, 2022 Author Share Posted January 7, 2022 Keithl - 2022-01-07 6:59 PM Gareth, Can you tie a tarp over the van roof and offending window to prevent any further rain falling on it and hopefully identify it as the cause of your leak? Keith. Yes good idea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trialsrider Posted January 8, 2022 Author Share Posted January 8, 2022 I'm planning on removing the inner frames of the two rooflights this afternoon to check if they are the culprits. My question is whether I will damage the integrity of the existing seal (if it's not broken) by releasing the tension between the inner and outer frame sandwich on the mini heki and fiamma 280 rooflights. I don't think I will be able to see any water ingress by just removing the cover containing the blind on the mini heki. I'm worried that removing the tension of the sandwich may jeopardize the seal. Any thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldi Posted January 8, 2022 Share Posted January 8, 2022 trialsrider - 2022-01-08 8:50 AM Y I'm planning on removing the inner frames of the two rooflights this afternoon to check if they are the culprits. My question is whether I will damage the integrity of the existing seal (if it's not broken) by releasing the tension between the inner and outer frame sandwich on the mini heki and fiamma 280 rooflights. I don't think I will be able to see any water ingress by just removing the cover containing the blind on the mini heki. I'm worried that removing the tension of the sandwich may jeopardize the seal. Any thoughts? You may as well reseal it anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted January 8, 2022 Share Posted January 8, 2022 Is the window top hinged or sliding? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trialsrider Posted January 8, 2022 Author Share Posted January 8, 2022 colin - 2022-01-08 5:11 PM Is the window top hinged or sliding? Top hinged Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trialsrider Posted January 8, 2022 Author Share Posted January 8, 2022 goldi - 2022-01-08 3:24 PM trialsrider - 2022-01-08 8:50 AM Y I'm planning on removing the inner frames of the two rooflights this afternoon to check if they are the culprits. My question is whether I will damage the integrity of the existing seal (if it's not broken) by releasing the tension between the inner and outer frame sandwich on the mini heki and fiamma 280 rooflights. I don't think I will be able to see any water ingress by just removing the cover containing the blind on the mini heki. I'm worried that removing the tension of the sandwich may jeopardize the seal. Any thoughts? You may as well reseal it anyway Time is sadly something I have very little of. When I refitted the fiamma roof light I spent a day doing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trialsrider Posted January 10, 2022 Author Share Posted January 10, 2022 I think I have narrowed down the source of the leak to either the wheel arch or the moulding next to the rear wheel arch and bumper. I spent a few hours hosing different areas waiting for wetness to show and the wheel arch and associated moulding area seemed to make the area wet inside. I think it could be coming through either the moulding clips or some vent like device under the moulding. It certainly seems in the right place to let water in. Any idea what it is ? If it is a vent it's not doing anything as the garage area has been pretty much sealed off to air anyway. I think I will remove it and blank it off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted January 10, 2022 Share Posted January 10, 2022 Gareth, The large vent you have circled is the body vent to allow an airflow through the vehicle. In a normal van it would help reduce condensation in the van but seen as your van is all but sealed in that area then I see no reason not to remove it and seal the opening. I would simply tape it over with a quality aluminium duct sealing tape. A common source of leaks on panel vans are the moulding clips and it is quite normal to remove them and refit with a blob of none setting mastic. Do not use household silicone as the acetic acid can promote rust. Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted January 10, 2022 Share Posted January 10, 2022 Robinhood - 2022-01-10 3:27 PM ...one of these: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/164284965241 ...though it does look like that might be "handed" the other way round. Edited to add. Having looked at other pictures, I think the part is symettrical, but the cut out isn't (so same part either side?.) There is only one part number on the Fiat parts diagram. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trialsrider Posted January 10, 2022 Author Share Posted January 10, 2022 Keithl - 2022-01-10 3:57 PM Gareth, The large vent you have circled is the body vent to allow an airflow through the vehicle. In a normal van it would help reduce condensation in the van but seen as your van is all but sealed in that area then I see no reason not to remove it and seal the opening. I would simply tape it over with a quality aluminium duct sealing tape. A common source of leaks on panel vans are the moulding clips and it is quite normal to remove them and refit with a blob of none setting mastic. Do not use household silicone as the acetic acid can promote rust. Keith. Thanks for the response. Yes there are ten clips plus five screw's to hold this panel on. I think I'll remove the vent if I can but it may be difficult from outside if it is pressed up against a panel. I have some sikolaster butyl sealant from the previous roof light fitting I could use. Would you not just use sikaflex 510 ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted January 10, 2022 Share Posted January 10, 2022 Sikaflex 510 is listed as a sealant so should be good for the job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trialsrider Posted January 11, 2022 Author Share Posted January 11, 2022 Keithl - 2022-01-10 4:00 PM Robinhood - 2022-01-10 3:27 PM ...one of these: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/164284965241 ...though it does look like that might be "handed" the other way round. Edited to add. Having looked at other pictures, I think the part is symettrical, but the cut out isn't (so same part either side?.) There is only one part number on the Fiat parts diagram. Do you think there is one on either side ? I can't find any info to say if there is one on the near side too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted January 11, 2022 Share Posted January 11, 2022 The parts diagrams are pretty generic, and only one side is shown, but it does not have an arrow to the other side. Your guess is as good as mine. It does show the potential for another similar (not the same) part the other side, but it looks like it might be behind the rear bumper/trim (and has the facility for a blanking cap). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 11, 2022 Share Posted January 11, 2022 This data on this Russian webpage https://tinyurl.com/ycy8bpub suggest that there will be two rear air intake grilles (Part Number 1360109080) one on each body side. The other air intake unit (Part Number 1355707080) is apparently fitted at the front of the Ducato on a chassis member as well at at the vehicle's rear and there's a cover available that can be fitted to block off the vent (mentioned on the Fiat forum). (The drawings relate to Ducato X250 models, but I'd expect the positioning of the air intakes to be the same for X290s) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trialsrider Posted January 11, 2022 Author Share Posted January 11, 2022 Robinhood - 2022-01-11 7:38 AM The parts diagrams are pretty generic, and only one side is shown, but it does not have an arrow to the other side. Your guess is as good as mine. It does show the potential for another similar (not the same) part the other side, but it looks like it might be behind the rear bumper/trim (and has the facility for a blanking cap). Thanks for the response. I think I will just have to remove both panels and blank off whatever I find. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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