South through Rouen

[JeffersonCampervan]

 

45 minutes ago, teccer1234 said:

I did mention that I have NO crit'air sticker as my hymer 694B was first registered in 2000, so sticker not available for me.

I am used to driving in France as I have been driving down for the last 26 winters via motorways pre brexit/covid so all the info I've just read from your last post I know about, what I wanted was a decent route through France away from the crit'air zones as not knowing where they all are, I expect there are many more towns that have zones.

we used to go over the milau bridge but at £30+ now we travel rouen/vierzion/limoges/toulouse/perpignon/spain, mostly motorways where we can

I expect there will be restrictions there as well.

That is puzzling - according to the website, vehicles registered 1997 - 2000 qualify for a  Crit d'Air 5 sticker. 

https://www.certificat-air.gouv.fr/foire-aux-questions?question=tableau-classification-vehicules-utilitaires-legers

 

 

For the zones en route, use the Green-Zones app on either Android or Apple

[JeffersonCampervan]

56 minutes ago, teccer1234 said:

 now we travel rouen/vierzion/limoges/toulouse/perpignon/spain, mostly motorways where we can

I expect there will be restrictions there as well.

Yes, if by "I expect there will be restrictions there as well" you mean Spain, it is mandating umweltzones in about 150 cities. 

https://cleantechnica.com/2022/09/03/nearly-150-spanish-cities-rolling-out-low-emission-zones-in-2023/

BTW, the Crit d'Air table I posted immediately above is titled on the French government site as: "Classification table for light commercial vehicles and motorhomes." 

[teccer1234]

thanks JeffersonCampervan

I've now filled out the request for a sticker and got confirmation back, as I got the van years ago from germany I scanned the german COC and sent that, hope it'll be ok

looks like I'll get a euro 2 sticker so does that mean there might still be restriction in certain areas? such as other towns in france which we always try to avoid as travelling on motorway where possible.

thanks

[JeffersonCampervan]

3 hours ago, teccer1234 said:

thanks JeffersonCampervan

I've now filled out the request for a sticker and got confirmation back, as I got the van years ago from germany I scanned the german COC and sent that, hope it'll be ok

looks like I'll get a euro 2 sticker so does that mean there might still be restriction in certain areas? such as other towns in france which we always try to avoid as travelling on motorway where possible.

thanks

Yes, you will be restricted, mostly in urban areas like Paris and Rouen. Each town varies - some have specific hours/days, some only apply when the pollution level is at a certain value. Use the Green-Zones app  if you're concerned. I don't find it impedes me much with my Euro 3/ Crit'air 4 sticker. Very few places I would go have rules as draconian as Rouen's appear to be. Most, like Lille, have exempt routes. But having the Crit'air sticker is technically mandatory to circulate in any ZFE (whether that is generally enforced I can't say). So you'll be one step in the right direction. 

[teccer1234]

18 hours ago, JeffersonCampervan said:

Yes, you will be restricted, mostly in urban areas like Paris and Rouen. Each town varies - some have specific hours/days, some only apply when the pollution level is at a certain value. Use the Green-Zones app  if you're concerned. I don't find it impedes me much with my Euro 3/ Crit'air 4 sticker. Very few places I would go have rules as draconian as Rouen's appear to be. Most, like Lille, have exempt routes. But having the Crit'air sticker is technically mandatory to circulate in any ZFE (whether that is generally enforced I can't say). So you'll be one step in the right direction. 

just got this back I wonder if it was because I sent the german COC but not my log book.

I'll try again and send both and see what happens

 

[JeffersonCampervan]

20 minutes ago, teccer1234 said:

just got this back I wonder if it was because I sent the german COC but not my log book.

I'll try again and send both and see what happens

 

IIRC, all they want is a copy of your registration card/papers. Mine is registered in NL, but here's a copy of what I sent them a few years ago (with personal info redacted for posting to this forum) . 

Maybe someone from the UK could specify the analogous UK document. A quick google came up with a "V5C" or "V5 form" (?). 

 

[teccer1234]

24 minutes ago, JeffersonCampervan said:

IIRC, all they want is a copy of your registration card/papers. Mine is registered in NL, but here's a copy of what I sent them a few years ago (with personal info redacted for posting to this forum) . 

Maybe someone from the UK could specify the analogous UK document. A quick google came up with a "V5C" or "V5 form" (?). 

 

I see that your van is 3500kg mine is 4500kg could that be the reason my applicant was refused? I've cut out the vin and chassis number to post on here

[teccer1234]

2 minutes ago, teccer1234 said:

I see that your van is 3500kg mine is 4500kg could that be the reason my applicant was refused? I've cut out the vin and chassis number to post on here

this is a v5c

[JeffersonCampervan]

3 hours ago, teccer1234 said:

I see that your van is 3500kg mine is 4500kg could that be the reason my applicant was refused? I've cut out the vin and chassis number to post on here

I see your V5 has no entry under "J - Vehicle Category ". 

Mine specifies N1. 

When applying,  in the Vehicle Category drop down box, select "Light commercial vehicles (Category N1)" and send in your V5. 

DON'T select "Heavy goods vehicles, buses and coaches (Category M2, M3, N2 or N3)" 

Among the various categories, motorhomes are grouped with "Light commercial vehicles". Hopefully that applies to all motorhomes, even those >3500. There is no motorhome reference in the HGV section of the crit'air pages. 

If that doesn't do it, then you're out of luck. 

[teccer1234]

1 hour ago, JeffersonCampervan said:

I see your V5 has no entry under "J - Vehicle Category ". 

Mine specifies N1. 

When applying,  in the Vehicle Category drop down box, select "Light commercial vehicles (Category N1)" and send in your V5. 

DON'T select "Heavy goods vehicles, buses and coaches (Category M2, M3, N2 or N3)" 

Among the various categories, motorhomes are grouped with "Light commercial vehicles". Hopefully that applies to all motorhomes, even those >3500. There is no motorhome reference in the HGV section of the crit'air pages. 

If that doesn't do it, then you're out of luck. 

thank for your help, I'll wait until tomorrow when I get the refusal notice and try again with cat N1, if no go then it looks like a few bypasses will have to be done, we've got your route around Rouen via Yvetot, that looks ok.

thanks

[Derek Uzzell]

teccer1234

You may want to read through these two elderly forum threads

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/topic/45622-crit-de-air/

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/topic/44004-been-given-crit-air-sticker-2/

For Crit'Air purposes, vehicles are categorised as follows

Vehicles that are built specifically as motorhomes (like your Hymer) would fall into the Passenger Car M1 Type Approval category irrespective of their gross vehicle weight (GVW). For a Year-2000-registered diesel-fuelled motorhome M1-category vehicle a "5" sticker should be awarded. 

Within the UK's vehicle registration system most motorhomes with a GVW exceeding 3500kg will be registered in the Private HGV 'road-tax' class, but that's irrelevant as far as the Crit'Air system is concerned. (There's no doubt, however, that if you chose the "HGVs, Buses and Coaches (M2, M3, N2 or N3 category)" option for your 2000-registered Hymer, your application would be rejected.)

Some UK-registered motorhomes may have the N1 'light utility vehicle' Type Approval category on their V5C registration certificate and these are usually based on vans converted by small-volume manufacturers rather than by major builders like Hymer.

A Year-2000-registered diesel-fuelled N1 motorhome should also receive a "5" sticker, but your 2000-registered Hymer 694 with a GVW of 4500kg is certainly not an N1 light utility vehicle even though one would hardly describe it as a "passenger car".  

[JeffersonCampervan]

Interesting Derek - 

So you think he should apply as a car? 

I recommended the light vehicle category because the page says :

" Classification table for light commercial vehicles and motorhomes." (in my screenshot of the page below, it's right above the table graphic) 

Nowhere do they address motorhomes over 3500, so I thought it best to default to this classification. 

 

[Derek Uzzell]

On many French websites it is advised that the "HGVs, Buses and Coaches" category should be chosen when a Crit'Air application is made for a motorhome (camping-car) with a Gross Vehicle weight (GVW) that exceeds 3500kg. However, this ignores the "(M2, M3, N2 or N3 category)" suffix that's part of that Crit'Air descriptor.

For the owner of a UK-registered motorhome with a GVW exceeding 3500kg, when applying for a Crit'Air sticker he/she can choose the 1st category or the 3rd category. A vehicle constructed as a motorhome (like a Hymer 694) shpuld be Type Approved as "M1" and the vehicle's GVW does not alter that. This type of motorhome will not (or should not) have "N1" Type Approval - as it's not a "light utility vehicle". In France , a motorhome with a GVW over 3500kg is described as a "camping-car poids lourd" (heavy-weight motorhome) but it still won't be a goods vehicle, nor will it have M2, M3, N2 or N3 Type Approval.

There's conflict/ambiguity between the choices offered in the Crit'Air application system and the Type Approval system as it applies to purpose-built motorhomes.

In the 2019 link I provided above I said

When filling in the on-line application form for a Crit’Air sticker, if you EXACTLY follow the straightforward procedure below, you should be awarded the best possible sticker for your motorhome.

1: IRRESPECTIVE OF THE MOTOR CARAVAN’S MAXIMUM OVERALL WEIGHT, always choose the “Private cars” option for the "Vehicle category [Champ J**]” box.

2: Always choose the “No indication of the environmental category” option for the “Indication of the environmental category [Champ V.9**]” box.

 3: If the motorhome’s V5C does have a CO2 (g/km) figure in its Field V.7, enter that figure in the "CO2(in g/km) [Champ V.7**]” box. Otherwise leave that box empty.

 Upload a copy of the 2nd page of the motorhome’s V5C registration certificate - that’s the page with “UK Registration Certificate” in blue in the top-left corner.

I'm not saying that this procedure is what the Crit'Air authorities have in mind where 'heavy-weight motorhomes' are concerned, just that it has some logic to it, that it won't (or should not) cause an application to be rejected, and that it will result in the 'BEST' sticker being awarded.

In teccer1234's case , using the procedure I suggested above, the 'BEST' sticker he can obtain for his Year-2000 Hymer  will be a "5", whereas the HGV option will cause his application to be refused. However, this March 2022 article indicates that "5" stickers have little real value nowadays.

https://www.eurocampings.co.uk/blog/listing/environmental-stickers-new-rules-per-country/

It's anybody's guess whether entering (say) Rouen's ZFE in a motorhome that displays no Crit'Air sticker would be more of a sin (and attract a higher fine) than in a motorhome displaying a "5" sticker.

[teccer1234]

1 hour ago, Derek Uzzell said:

On many French websites it is advised that the "HGVs, Buses and Coaches" category should be chosen when a Crit'Air application is made for a motorhome (camping-car) with a Gross Vehicle weight (GVW) that exceeds 3500kg. However, this ignores the "(M2, M3, N2 or N3 category)" suffix that's part of that Crit'Air descriptor.

For the owner of a UK-registered motorhome with a GVW exceeding 3500kg, when applying for a Crit'Air sticker he/she can choose the 1st category or the 3rd category. A vehicle constructed as a motorhome (like a Hymer 694) shpuld be Type Approved as "M1" and the vehicle's GVW does not alter that. This type of motorhome will not (or should not) have "N1" Type Approval - as it's not a "light utility vehicle". In France , a motorhome with a GVW over 3500kg is described as a "camping-car poids lourd" (heavy-weight motorhome) but it still won't be a goods vehicle, nor will it have M2, M3, N2 or N3 Type Approval.

There's conflict/ambiguity between the choices offered in the Crit'Air application system and the Type Approval system as it applies to purpose-built motorhomes.

In the 2019 link I provided above I said

When filling in the on-line application form for a Crit’Air sticker, if you EXACTLY follow the straightforward procedure below, you should be awarded the best possible sticker for your motorhome.

1: IRRESPECTIVE OF THE MOTOR CARAVAN’S MAXIMUM OVERALL WEIGHT, always choose the “Private cars” option for the "Vehicle category [Champ J**]” box.

2: Always choose the “No indication of the environmental category” option for the “Indication of the environmental category [Champ V.9**]” box.

 3: If the motorhome’s V5C does have a CO2 (g/km) figure in its Field V.7, enter that figure in the "CO2(in g/km) [Champ V.7**]” box. Otherwise leave that box empty.

 Upload a copy of the 2nd page of the motorhome’s V5C registration certificate - that’s the page with “UK Registration Certificate” in blue in the top-left corner.

I'm not saying that this procedure is what the Crit'Air authorities have in mind where 'heavy-weight motorhomes' are concerned, just that it has some logic to it, that it won't (or should not) cause an application to be rejected, and that it will result in the 'BEST' sticker being awarded.

In teccer1234's case , using the procedure I suggested above, the 'BEST' sticker he can obtain for his Year-2000 Hymer  will be a "5", whereas the HGV option will cause his application to be refused. However, this March 2022 article indicates that "5" stickers have little real value nowadays.

https://www.eurocampings.co.uk/blog/listing/environmental-stickers-new-rules-per-country/

It's anybody's guess whether entering (say) Rouen's ZFE in a motorhome that displays no Crit'Air sticker would be more of a sin (and attract a higher fine) than in a motorhome displaying a "5" sticker.

thanks for that Derek, I'm about to re apply again today but will it help if I also include the german COC as it says on there it's a class M1?

[GandJP]

Derek, Just to make things clear for a friend, what should owners of a relatively new vehicle  (2018, under or maximum of 3500kg) enter, M1? 

[Derek Uzzell]

teccer1234

Do as I said above and just upload a copy of the 2nd page of your Hymer's UK V5C registration document.

Although you have a Certificate of Conformity for your Hymer that shows its Type Approval class as M1, given the age of your motorhome it's quite likely that "M1" does not appear on the vehicle's V5C. If I remember correctly UK-built motorhomes did not need to be Type Approved until 2012, so motorhome-related V5C documents produced before then might well often omit that datum.

If you choose the 'car/M1' option and there's nothing on your V5C to contradict this, your choice should not be challenged. The French authorities do not ask for a CofC copy and sending them one will just complicate matters. 

[teccer1234]

1 minute ago, Derek Uzzell said:

teccer1234

Do as I said above and just upload a copy of the 2nd page of your Hymer's UK V5C registration document.

Although you have a Certificate of Conformity for your Hymer that shows its Type Approval class as M1, given the age of your motorhome it's quite likely that "M1" does not appear on the vehicle's V5C. If I remember correctly UK-built motorhomes did not need to be Type Approved until 2012, so motorhome-related V5C documents produced before then might well often omit that datum.

If you choose the 'car/M1' option and there's nothing on your V5C to contradict this, your choice should not be challenged. The French authorities do not ask for a CofC copy and sending them one will just complicate matters. 

OK thanks I'll get on and follow your advice, thanks

[Derek Uzzell]

GandJP

A 2018 UK-registered motorhome with a GVW of 3500kg should be Type Approved and "M1" or "M1SP" (M1 Special Purpose) should be expected to appear on its V5C document. In that case the motorhome should be considered to be a passenger/private car. 

As I mentioned earlier, some motorhomes converted from a commercial van base may be UK-registered as light-commercial vehicles and their V5C will carry "N1". In that case, the "Light utility vehicles (N1 category)" option should be chosen.

The Crit'Air sticker-ordering homepage carries a "Determining my classification" simulation feature that can be used to determine which sticker 'number' one should expect to be awarded. A motorhome UK-registered in 2018 (M1 or N1) should get a yellow "2" sticker.

This table might help

https://www.certificat-air.gouv.fr/files/tableaux_classement.pdf

[GandJP]

Thankyou Derek, I'll pass this on and I will try and encourage him to join the forum.

 

[teccer1234]

On 10/21/2022 at 2:16 PM, JeffersonCampervan said:

Yesterday  I sent an enquiry to the City of Rouen regarding the ZFE rules that came into effect September 1. We have a 2001 Hymer B654 Crit d'Air 4.The city of Rouen map does not show the exempt routes that the Green Zone App shows. Nor does it state a motorhome derogation as claimed in this article : ( https://www.lemondeducampingcar.fr/.../zfe-des.../208058). I've asked Rouen about exempt routes and about a motorhome exemption. I'll post here if I get a response from Rouen.

If you do get a reply from the french please don't forget to let us know what the result is.

thanks for your help.

[Derek Uzzell]

In 2018 a French law was introduced relating to vehicles that had been converted into motorhomes. The law is referred to as  "la loi VASP" and was aimed primarily at panel-van conversions. For a panel-van conversion to be homologated as a VASP it needs to meet certain criteria and is a bit like the UK's DVLA requirements but less strict. It's discussed in this July 2019 article

http://zecaillou.com/en/vasp-certification-campervan/

It needs to be appreciated that VASP is uniquely a French law and, where the ZFE exemptions are concerned, the registration certificate of an 'exempted' motorhome apparently needs to carry the words "VASP" and "Caravane" - and that won't be the case for non-French-registered motorhomes.

This 25 September 2022 "Camping-Car Magazine" article

https://www.camping-car.com/nos-actus/27956-les-camping-cars-autorises-a-circuler-dans-certaines-zfe

says (GOOGLE translation)

"Last July, Montpellier Méditerranée Métropole took the decision to allow motorhomes to enter the ZFE that was created. This decision taken to allow tourist activity to be exercised was recently taken up by another community of municipalities, that of Métropole Rouen Normandie . The officials of this metropolis have indeed recorded that, until June 30, 2024, motorhome-type vehicles bearing the words "VASP" and "Caravan" on the registration certificate are authorized to drive inside the ZFE. This derogation follows the establishment of the Low Mobility Emissions Zone (ZFE-M), in accordance with Article L.2213-4-1 of the General Code of Local Authorities."

 

[teccer1234]

1 hour ago, Derek Uzzell said:

In 2018 a French law was introduced relating to vehicles that had been converted into motorhomes. The law is referred to as  "la loi VASP" and was aimed primarily at panel-van conversions. For a panel-van conversion to be homologated as a VASP it needs to meet certain criteria and is a bit like the UK's DVLA requirements but less strict. It's discussed in this July 2019 article

http://zecaillou.com/en/vasp-certification-campervan/

It needs to be appreciated that VASP is uniquely a French law and, where the ZFE exemptions are concerned, the registration certificate of an 'exempted' motorhome apparently needs to carry the words "VASP" and "Caravane" - and that won't be the case for non-French-registered motorhomes.

This 25 September 2022 "Camping-Car Magazine" article

https://www.camping-car.com/nos-actus/27956-les-camping-cars-autorises-a-circuler-dans-certaines-zfe

says (GOOGLE translation)

"Last July, Montpellier Méditerranée Métropole took the decision to allow motorhomes to enter the ZFE that was created. This decision taken to allow tourist activity to be exercised was recently taken up by another community of municipalities, that of Métropole Rouen Normandie . The officials of this metropolis have indeed recorded that, until June 30, 2024, motorhome-type vehicles bearing the words "VASP" and "Caravan" on the registration certificate are authorized to drive inside the ZFE. This derogation follows the establishment of the Low Mobility Emissions Zone (ZFE-M), in accordance with Article L.2213-4-1 of the General Code of Local Authorities."

 

Hi Derek  does the word VASP and CARAVAN have to be on the log book or just one, for example my log book does say motor CARAVAN

[teccer1234]

5 minutes ago, teccer1234 said:

Hi Derek  does the word VASP and CARAVAN have to be on the log book or just one, for example my log book does say motor CARAVAN

just re read your second paragraph and it clears up my question. thanks

[JeffersonCampervan]

Great info Derek - many thanks! 

teccer1234 - I don't know if I will get a response from the City of Rouen, but I will definitely post it here if and when I do. 

[teccer1234]

1 hour ago, JeffersonCampervan said:

Great info Derek - many thanks! 

teccer1234 - I don't know if I will get a response from the City of Rouen, but I will definitely post it here if and when I do. 

thanks.