South through Rouen

[webby1]

Yes thanks for the work put in by Derek and Jefferson.

I'll also print off the positive reply in French just in case.

[teccer1234]

4 hours ago, simians said:

 

Noted an emphasis on the display of a UK sticker.  🤨

so I don't suppose the Uk + uk flag on the left side of the number plate will do,  will it have to be the big oval UK sticker??

[webby1]

Actually I think the big oval sticker (showing solidarity with Ukraine)is only needed in Spain.The numberplate marking is sufficient in France.

Having appreciated the work others have done I'd better do my bit and find

so see here and I'm sure there are others.

Wasn't it great not to be seen as A Third Country

[Derek Uzzell]

The French law (art.11 decree of July 1, 1996) referred to by the Rouen ZFE team has been modified several times since 1996. Originally it demanded that a foreign-registered vehicle carry on its rear a white oval with a 'country code' (eg. UK) in black letters, but this demand was subsequently modified to allow vehicle registration-plates to carry instead a Euro symbol if the vehicle was registered in a Euro country.

The current position is as webb1's link says.

The gov.uk advice can be found here

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/driving-in-the-eu#uk-stickers-and-number-plates

[simians]

1 hour ago, teccer1234 said:

so I don't suppose the Uk + uk flag on the left side of the number plate will do,  will it have to be the big oval UK sticker??

DU's post/link of course seems to answer that. Over many years I've never displayed any national identity sticker, and never queried. Reason for  this choice, is that, as a general rule I take the option of not attracting any more attention from the local populace than I need to. I doubt if anyone is going to be disadvantaged in any way by my decision.

However I do display the Angles Mort signs.........safety issue. 

 

[Derek Uzzell]

I've been driving outside the UK for over 40 years and none of the vehicles I've used has had any 'country of origin' identifier on its registration-plates. As I've always known that an identifier was a legal requirement in the countries I've visited, I've always added a "GB" oval to the rear of the vehicle before going abroad. This was no great hardship as - in times past - ferry operators used to provide a free GB oval  with the ticket. All of my vehicles have been right-hand-drive (except for one motorhome) and, once the position of the steering-wheel has been spotted, it's pretty clear where the vehicle has come from.

Having no country of origin identifier (on an oval or on registration-plates) on a 'foreign' vehicle invites a fine in France ( the Rouen ZFE team are clearly well aware of the requirement) and €90 seems to be the going rate. 

There has been some discussion in France about the unilateral decision of the UK government to replace "GB" with "UK" and what effect this might have if UK drivers do not alter the signage on their vehicles. One source advised

Clearly displaying the country of origin of your vehicle is an international requirement and if you are stopped by French police without one you can be issued with an on-the-spot fine (although it’s unclear how bothered French police will be about the intricacies of UK v GB).

which seems credible.

There has been plenty of discussion on French motohome forums about the "Angles Morts" signs. French complaints generally have been that the idea is daft, but it's understood that failing to comply is asking for trouble fine-wise and might be significant blame-wise in the event of an accident. Complaints on UK motorhome forums mostly seem to revolve around the signs' 'ugliness', and/or that they 'advertise' that a UK motorhome's gross weight exceeds 3500kg, thus attracting a higher fee on toll autoroutes or forbidding the motorhome from using roads that have a 3500kg weight limit.

There has been argument in the UK and elsewhere over the law's wording (eg. "Cette obligation s’applique aux véhicules lourds circulant en milieu urbain") but my interpretation is that the law applies to any heavy vehicle one expects to be driven in urban areas (buses, coaches, trucks, motorhomes, etc.) and not just when such vehicles are actually being driven in an urban area. Agricultural vehicles like combine harvesters, JCBs, tractors, etc. that generally steer clear of towns do not need to carry the signs. French motorcaravanners seem unconcerned by the potential ambiguity  of the law's wording and take the view that, if one has a "camping-car poids lourd",  the vehicle must have Angles Morts signs on it when it's driven on any French public road.

[simians]

Angles Mort signage is a safety issue, the French have deemed that the displaying of this sign will save lives. So I show these. Doesn't matter whether I happen to believe this or not, I'm certainly no expert, hopefully the French have based their decision on expert advice!

The non displaying of a national identifying sticker is in a somewhat lower league, just a piece of bureaucracy. Well that is unless someone can convince me that there's a significant tangible reason to display the sticker. Meantime I'll carry on as usual and omit the oval adornment, and prepared to pay the penalty. 

My many years of motorhoming (particularly when wild camping)have convinced me, that in general, keeping the lowest profile possible is of advantage, eg avoiding anything that can be perceived as nationalistic by some. Mind you I'd consider a sign on the van stating "Olympic Tae Kwan Do Team on Tour."  😄

[simians]

Travelled Dieppe Rouen via  D150/D151 today connecting with the D438 south to Alencon.

Apart from an illuminated o/h gantry sign just before the Gustav Flaubert bridge merely mentioning the existence of crit aire there was no other signage that I could spot, mind you I did have my peelers focussed on the road, its a very busy junction.Anyway I wasn't hauled over. 

Angles morts signage is definitely being displayed by virtually every hgv that I noted, certainly many more than last year. 

[Brian Kirby]

On 11/22/2022 at 5:16 PM, teccer1234 said:

so I don't suppose the Uk + uk flag on the left side of the number plate will do, will it have to be the big oval UK sticker??

The short answer is that either is legal (but see below for Spain, Cyprus and Malta), providing that the sticker or number plates conform to the requirements of the 1968 Vienna Convention on International Traffic.  I've been digging around on this for quite a while and have exchanged correspondence with the DfT in trying to get clarity on what is legally required, and why, and it is a bit more complicated than it may at first sight appear. 

There are, in effect, two requirements to be complied with. 

First, the display of the UK registration number, in terms of the materials and fixings of the plates, their background colour and the lettering used, borders and supplementary markings (supplier identification, BS ref, etc,) are all requirements of the Road Vehicles (Display of Registration Marks) Regulations 2001 and subsequent amendments.  To be legal within the UK, our number plates must conform with this regulation.

The second requirement, the matter of legal identification of the vehicle when driven outside the United Kingdom (UK), lies within the 1968 Vienna Convention on International Traffic, a UN treaty which the UK signed on 8 November 1968, and ratified on 28 March 2018.  This is where the requirement for vehicles to carry the “distinguishing sign of their state” arises.  So, to be legal on public roads outside the UK, a UK registered vehicle must carry its distinguishing sign in either of the formats stipulated in the treaty.

The distinguishing sign must either be displayed on the rear of the vehicle on a separate plate, or be incorporated into both front and rear number plates.  The requirements for the format of the distinguishing sign, whether separate or incorporated into the number plates, are laid down in Annex 3 to the Convention.

On distinguishing signs incorporated into number plates, Annex 3 to the Convention states:

“When the distinguishing sign is incorporated into the registration plate(s), the following conditions shall apply:

(a) The letters shall have a height of at least 0.02 m, taking as a reference a registration plate of 0.11 m.;

(b) (i) The distinguishing sign of the State of registration, which may be supplemented where applicable by the flag or emblem of the State or the emblem of the regional economic integration organization to which the country belongs, shall be displayed on the far left or right of the rear registration plate, but preferably on the left or the far upper left on plates where the number takes up two lines;

(ii) When, in addition to the distinguishing sign, a non-numerical symbol and/or a flag and/or a regional or local emblem is displayed on the registration plate, the distinguishing sign of the State of registration shall obligatorily be placed on the far left of the plate;

(c) The flag or emblem supplementing where applicable the distinguishing sign of the State of registration shall be positioned so that it cannot impair the legibility of the distinguishing sign and shall preferably be placed above it;

(d) The distinguishing sign of the State of registration shall be positioned so as to be easily identifiable and so that it cannot be confused with the registration number or impair its legibility. The distinguishing sign shall therefore be at least of a different colour from the registration number, or have a different background colour to that reserved for the registration number, or be clearly separated, preferably by a line, from the registration number.”

You will note (b) (i) above does not require any “national emblem” (i.e. the union flag on UK registered vehicles) to be included: merely that one may be included.  For UK use, since the UK has signed and ratified the treaty, it is bound to accept plates in the Vienna Convention format.  So, the union flag is optional on the number plates of UK registered vehicles, though the government appears to wish to create the impression that UK number plates displaying the “UK” identifier must be accompanied by the flag emblem.

87 countries have ratified the Convention.  They are all legally bound under the treaty to accept onto their roads vehicles bearing the distinguishing sign of the other ratifying countries, whether on the separate plate or incorporated into their number plates.

Spain, Cyprus, and Malta have signed, but not ratified, the Convention, so visiting vehicles from other countries must carry their distinguishing sign on the separate, rear mounted, plate.  This applies to all vehicles, even those with the distinguishing sign incorporated into their number plates.

[Brian Kirby]

Correction - just for accuracy.  Above, I said "Spain, Cyprus, and Malta have signed, but not ratified, the Convention, so visiting vehicles from other countries must carry their distinguishing sign on the separate, rear mounted, plate.  This is incorrect.

On checking, the UNECE say that only Spain has signed, neither Cyprus nor Malta have.  However, it remains the case that an oval, black lettering on white background "UK" sticker is required on UK registered vehicles in all three states.  This is irrespective of whether or not your number plates have UK or GB (whether or not accompanied by the EU stars or the Union Flag) included in their left hand edge.

[Brian Kirby]

On 12/2/2022 at 7:11 PM, Brian Kirby said:

...........................................You will note (b) (i) above does not require any “national emblem” (i.e. the union flag on UK registered vehicles) to be included: merely that one may be included.  For UK use, since the UK has signed and ratified the treaty, it is bound to accept plates in the Vienna Convention format.  So, the union flag is optional on the number plates of UK registered vehicles, though the government appears to wish to create the impression that UK number plates displaying the “UK” identifier must be accompanied by the flag emblem.

Just on the question of whether or not the Union Flag is optional when combined with the letters UK on the left hand side of a UK registration plate, I have managed to source, and have now fitted, such plates.

It has been confirmed to me by the DfT that the Union Flag is optional, and that the correct format for displaying the national identifier on the left hand side of the plate is as set out in Annex 3, paragraph 3 (a) to (d) of the Vienna Convention on Road Traffic and not by the DfT.

The source is a fully accredited producer of registration plates (I got their name from the government website), and the plates comply with BS AU 145e.  He prints and assembles on his premises, so has greater flexibility than other local suppliers that I approached who merely buy in kits from large suppliers and assemble the bits to create the plate.

Because the British Number Plate Manufacturers Association has "bought in" to the government's desire to impose Union Flags on UK buyers, these kits seem only to comprise (at least in this area) the white and yellow reflective backgrounds pre-printed with the letters UK and the Union Flag.

My supplier is local, so I went and collected - but I understand he can supply via courier.  If anyone is interested PM me, and I'll pass on the contact details.  My pair of plates was produced while I waited, and cost £36 for the pair.

[Derek Uzzell]

I notice that there was a fairly recent petition asking that the Union flag be a legal requirement for new vehicle registration plates.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/600790

The petition's wording is peculiar (Do people check their petition's wording to see if it actually makes sense?) but it seems to be saying that the flag was optional.

As Brian has confirmed that the Union flag is optional, would it be legally acceptable to have "UK" on the plate and (say) a Welsh flag above it?

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

1 hour ago, Derek Uzzell said:

I notice that there was a fairly recent petition asking that the Union flag be a legal requirement for new vehicle registration plates.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/600790

The petition's wording is peculiar (Do people check their petition's wording to see if it actually makes sense?) but it seems to be saying that the flag was optional.

As Brian has confirmed that the Union flag is optional, would it be legally acceptable to have "UK" on the plate and (say) a Welsh flag above it?

 

 

What fun!  😄  Did you look at the option to see the results on a constituency map?  That is even odder, with some of the highest percentages of in favour respondents in Scotland (plus, I think, where you are)!!  I'm pleased to say that my constituency had a very low favourable vote.  🙂 

Re your question, as I understand it, it would be (and is) perfectly legal within the UK, but would not Comply with the Vienna Convention requirements for overseas travel, as the Welsh flag is not representative of the UK as a whole, as the Union Flag is.  A separate UK sticker on the rear of the vehicle is also required when driving abroad.

I should have added, for clarity, that for the reasons stated in my 22/11/22 post above, even with "UK numberplates", a UK sticker would still be required for Spain, Cyprus and Malta.

[Brian Kirby]

On 11/24/2022 at 7:00 PM, simians said:

.................................................The non displaying of a national identifying sticker is in a somewhat lower league, just a piece of bureaucracy. ..........................................

My many years of motorhoming (particularly when wild camping)have convinced me, that in general, keeping the lowest profile possible is of advantage, eg avoiding anything that can be perceived as nationalistic by some. ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,  😄

It is, but it is also a legal obligation under the Vienna Convention on Road Traffic.  My understanding is that it is intended to allow the authorities to quickly identify the country of registration of a vehicle - presumably in the event of traffic infraction or accident.  Personally, that seems to me to make sense, and might, in the case of a serious accident, possibly be to my advantage.

My main reason for wanting "flag free" plates, however, is similar to your second paragraph above.  Your explanation exactly fits my thinking.  The plates I now have are similar in appearance to "Euro" plates.  That is to say, the letters "UK" are contained within a blue stripe down the left hand side of both front and rear plate.  Since most EU registered vehicle plates are of similar format, with similar left hand edge blue bands containing their national identifiers, I'm assuming the missing "Euro stars" won't be spotted by more than a handful of people.

UK plate colours and lettering are already noticeably different to those on most other EU member state registered vehicles, and will probably be recognised as UK plates by anyone who habitually looks.  That apart, there is nothing noticeably "different" about them.  For use in UK they look pretty much the same as the "Euro plates" they replace, so I don't expect them to attract great attention here either.  Time, as ever, will tell!

However, I just may carry a copy of Annex 3 to the Convention with me when abroad, just in case I need evidence to satisfy the authorities if they are doubtful!  🙂 

[webby1]

I don't know if anyone is also on the FUN site......................I'm no longer a member because of disagreements with he who has editorial and dictatorial control.

There are a couple of recent threads about travelling through Rouen and whether there are the through routes described by the Green App or applies to everywhere.

Nobody seems aware of the research work done on here and the info that motorhomes are exempt until 2024.

It would be good to let them know and a feather in the cap for this site