Engine oil approvals

[Steve928]

Just got to the bottom of my 20L cube of Fuchs Pro 2312 0w30, recommended by its manufacturer but not approved for Fiat 9.55535-DS1, and can still find only the one 9.55535-DS1 oil approval (Selenia of course) and no information at all on any Fiat website.

Compare this to oil for my VAG car where I can download from VW themselves a detailed list of approvals for their more recent 0w20 VW 508/9 specification, with easily 150+ oils with VW approval.

Do Fiat just not approve anything but their own brand or put obstacles in the way of oil manufacturers gaining approval? I'll likely be buying the same Fuchs oil just because I refuse to play their game but it would be nice to have some options with actual approval.

[rayc]

I don't suppose Fiat officially approve it but I use Millers which say it meets the Fiat spec https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/133544559542?

[Steve928]

Yes there's no shortage of oils whose manufacturer states 'meet the specification', just none other than Selenia that have Fiat approval. I'm just wondering what the obstacle is to oil manufacturers gaining approval from Fiat, as they do in droves for other car manufacturers' specs. The Fuchs oil I use has Peugeot approval for example but something stopped them gaining Fiat approval too despite it meeting their specs. Must just come down to money I guess..

[Robinhood]

I use the same Fuchs Titan Pro, (though I've used Selenia in the past when I could get it cheap) and I don't think there is another oil which is fully Fiat endorsed.

A good few claim to "meet the requirements of". The most convincing of alternatives is probably Castrol Magnatec 0W-30 GS1/DS1, which is specifically designed to meet the Fiat DS1/GS1 specs but, AFAIK, is still not fully endorsed.

[rayc]

Perhaps there is some monetary arrangement between Fiat and Selenia that stipulates only Selenia product will be officially approved? https://uk.pli-petronas.com/en-gb/selenia-mopar

Edited March 14 by rayc

[onecal]

Hi,

If your out of your warranty period  as below.(1 and 2).If not use Fiat recommended  approved oil for your engine

1.Use a good brand of the correct specification for your engine. example- (Castrol Magnatec 0W-30 GS1/DS1

or similar)

2.Change the oil often and never overfill. 

It's the life blood of your engine   

Regards

[Steve928]

40 minutes ago, rayc said:

Perhaps there is some monetary arrangement between Fiat and Selenia that stipulates only Selenia product will be officially approved? https://uk.pli-petronas.com/en-gb/selenia-mopar

I guess that could well be the reason. Were it purely a matter of cost then that might be prohibitive for the smaller companies but I'd expect at least a few of the major manufacturers to have stumped up in order to gain sales. Ah well, plenty of 'meets the requirement' lubes to choose from.

[Derek Uzzell]

This link may be of interest

https://www.valvolineglobal.com/en-eur/oem_certification_what_does_it_mean/#:~:text=When engine oil meets OEM,OEM's specific tests and specifications.

[John52]

Much as it pains me, it might be best to pay the rip off prices for Selina oil - if you can be sure its not counterfeit.

Because who else is going to check it meets the specs it says on the label?

Since the demise of Trading Standards and border checks, there is ample evidence the UK has become a dumping ground for crap that could not be sold across the channel

[onecal]

Hi

I think the oil is checked in the case of a warranty claim !

Regards 

[mtravel]

I would just like to point out that perhaps Fiat trusts an oil it knows, evidently developed when Selenia was its property.

Now Selenia is owned by Petronas which has one of its research centers in Turin.

[Steve928]

Just put my vehicle into Selenia's own product selector and their recommendation is to use Digitek Pure Energy which doesn't carry Fiat's 955535-DS1 approval, so isn't approved by Fiat for my engine. Something for their research centre to look into perhaps..

[laimeduck]

2 hours ago, onecal said:

Hi

I think the oil is checked in the case of a warranty claim !

Regards 

I might have missed something but as far as I can find out analysis will not tell the make of the oil, only the viscosity and presence of contaminants. 

[onecal]

Hi

Yes re read , That's exactly what they check .Some cases they also look from the approved garage or independent that the approved oil was used . Common practice in most warranty cases 

Regards

Edited March 15 by onecal

[laimeduck]

1 hour ago, onecal said:

Hi

Yes re read , That's exactly what they check .Some cases they also look from the approved garage or independent that the approved oil was used . Common practice in most warranty cases 

Regards

OneCal  ... sorry but I don't need to re- read it? I am wary of sweeping statements which you make.

They may check the paperwork to see what the individual and/or garage has claimed to have used, and they could send a sample of oil for analysis to a specialist laboratory, BUT as far as I can determine the analysis will simply give contaminants and viscosity, NOT who made the oil.

Unless of course you can provide proof that this is possible?

[Tracker]

As long as any vehicle remains under the makers warranty, and it pains me to say it, it pays to have the vehicle serviced and repaired at a main dealer so that, despite what the theoretical law says about servicing anywhere using genuine or recommended parts,  you KNOW you are safe.

So it costs a few quid more for the first two services - what price peace of mind and (theoretically!) aggro free warranty repairs if needed - especially given the horrendous cost of repairs to 'modern' vehicles.

It might also help the resale value a bit?

Edited March 15 by Tracker
add

[onecal]

Jermy 

Not looking to find holes in statements as you do ,not really a sweeping statement, lol🤣 more a common sense. Did I ever say  actually in my first statement that they can't actually do that, as you claimed you may have missed something, Of course they do .  The statement I made is a true statement as many who have had issues with warranty over the years know quite well in dealing with same.

It would be a very wise move to use an approved main dealer while the vehicle is under warranty One can use an Independent but they may have to prove they actually used the approved oil and that sometimes can be a difficult task and can give the manufacture some wriggle room to make the warranty null and void as many have found to their cost 

Regards

PS 

My answer was in reply to the following ,of course as you know 

"Because who else is going to check it meets the specs it says on the label?"

 

Posted 5 hours ago

Hi

I think the oil is checked in the case of a warranty claim !

Regards 

 

2 hours ago, onecal said:

Hi

Yes re read , That's exactly what they check .Some cases they also look from the approved garage or independent that the approved oil was used . Common practice in most warranty cases 

Regards

 

Edited March 15 by onecal

[laimeduck]

OneCal ... I am sorry ...  you have not answered my query and now you are being rude. I have said it before on here but I don't do rude. Goodbye.

[onecal]

Jeremy 

Not at all and never meant to be rude in any way, 

Regards

Brendan

[mtravel]

19 hours ago, Tracker said:

As long as any vehicle remains under the makers warranty, and it pains me to say it, it pays to have the vehicle serviced and repaired at a main dealer so that, despite what the theoretical law says about servicing anywhere using genuine or recommended parts,  you KNOW you are safe.

Clap, clap, clap.

[onecal]

Hi

Afraid so, but you can of course use  Independent's but so bloody difficult to prove that they have used the correct approved oil spec' They will of course do a oil analysis and it may be within spec but alas they may also look for proof of the oil used from the Independent garage, that it's the oil they recommend (wriggle room for them) But many do have the oil changed way before the recommended schedule (divided by two) by an Independant they may know and trust, which isn't a bad thing to prolong your engines life   So yes bite the bullet sadly and have it done by an approved dealer of your vehicle during warranty. 

Regards   

[John52]

On 15/03/2024 at 19:29, Tracker said:

 it pays to have the vehicle serviced and repaired at a main dealer so that, despite what the theoretical law says about servicing anywhere using genuine or recommended parts,  you KNOW you are safe.

How do you KNOW?

rolopolo had a timing belt fitted at a main dealer

he only discovered it was non genuine because it failed in less than a year

https://www.fiatforum.com/threads/ducato-slipped-timing-belt.497663/

[Brian Kirby]

That's not quite how I read rolopolo, John.  🙂  He said "However it’s worth noting that Stoneacre fitted a Non genuine belt, unbeknown to me, which wasn’t as well made or same size (width, thickness, no Kevlar reinforcement) and they had to pay the local fiat dealer for the repair (my underline)

That reads to me as though, despite (apparently) claiming to be a Fiat authorised repairer by attaching a Fiat logo to their "Vanworld" website, when the poo went into the fan they had to take the van to "the local fiat dealer" - which apparently wasn't Vanworld.

I'm wondering whether Stoneacre's workshop may be a Fiat authorised repairer, but not a Fiat Professional (i.e. commercial vehicles) authorised repairer, and simply over reached.  However, it seems that Vanworld eventually forked out for the proper repair after they'd messed up.  Whether it would have been quite so easily resolved if the duff timing belt had wrecked the rolopolo's engine, resulting in a bill for several thousand pounds, is another matter.

It is worth noting that manufacturers warranties are non contractual, cannot be enforced through the courts, and cover only matters that are stated in the warranty to be covered, and only under the conditions and to the extent that the warranty states apply.  No more, no less.  The manufacturer is within their warranty rights to walk away if they (and no-one else) deem a fault to be due to a failure of the vehicle owner to observe the warranty conditions in full.

In rolopolo's case, he would have had a right to legal redress through the courts against Vanworld for using an inferior part, but rolopolo would have had to prove that the part was inferior to the court.  To do that he would have had to engage the services of a bona fide Fiat Commercial workshop (or an independent automotive engineer) at his own expense to establish the actual cause of the fault and present their findings to the court (and add his costs to his claim against Vanworld).  It seems Vanworld realised that, and decided to pay the authorised garage to do the job properly instead of arguing.

Whether or not folk wish to use franchised workshops for work on vehicles which are under warranty is for them to decide, but they do need to understand the risks if they decide against and, if they are wise, to know the quality of the work and materials the independent workshop will employ.  Some independents will be superior to some franchised workshops, some not.  If a franchised workshop cocks up, at least you have recourse to the manufacturer to investigate and intervene where necessary; OTOH, if an independent cocks up, the manufacturer is hardly likely to be sympathetic and will almost certainly charge handsomely for their time, even if they agree to become involved.

In the end, it's all down to Dirty Harry: "Are you feeling lucky, Punk?"  😄 

[John52]

1 hour ago, Brian Kirby said:

(vanworld) had to pay the local fiat dealer for the repair 

 

Stoneacre Vanworld are listed as Fiat Professional dealers on the Fiat Professional website.

https://www.fiatprofessional.com/uk/retailers

I took it to mean Stoneacre Vanworld had to pay for the repairs because Fiat wouldn't, because they hadn't fitted a Fiat approved belt?

Point is if you can't rely a Fiat Professional dealer to fit Fiat approved belts, how can you 'KNOW' they use Fiat approved oil? (Tracker)

If you pour the oil in the van yourself you can read what it says on the can

And hope the stuff in the can complies with it

But, since the demise of import checks and Trading Standards,  I don't know who is checking?

Pardon my cynisism, but its based on years in the motor trade, and that was when we still had Trading Standards checks.

I have since read 'Which' magazine reports on car servicing taking vehicles in for service and checking them before and afterwards.  None of the garages did everything they were supposed to and it was a lottery what service you got.  Bore no relation to whether it was a franchised dealer or not, and little relation to how much you paid.

That said,

I guessed 'local' to mean local to where he had broken down?

or where he lived?

I wouldn't have thought local to Stoneacre Vanworld or they would have done the repair themselves

Especially since they are still a Fiat Professional approved dealership and repair shop, had done the original belt change whilst the van was under Fiat warranty.

But he doesn't say local to where so I don't know.

Edited March 17 by John52

[Robinhood]

1 hour ago, Brian Kirby said:

I'm wondering whether Stoneacre's (Vanworld) workshop may be a Fiat authorised repairer, but not a Fiat Professional (i.e. commercial vehicles) authorised repairer, and simply over reached. 

Vanworld is an accredited Fiat Professional (and Camper) dealer/servicer. The almost adjacent Stoneacre Fiat part of a multi-make dealership is also Fiat Professional accredited (and has been there much longer).

I've had minor work done at Vanworld to test them out, but, like most of the local FP outlets, to paraphrase Shania Twain "they don't impress me much"

It's difficult to judge the circumstances without the full facts. The post seems to indicate that the belt was changed at around the specified mileage interval, but at 1 year only. One would possibly expect an OE belt given it would be in warranty at that point (but there is a strong possibility it might be on the borderline, even at 1 year, given the mileage). If a conversation was had about price for the work, it might well be that non-OE parts had been explicitly/implicitly agreed. INA, whilst relatively cheap, is not a "no-name" brand.

It may go to reinforce my comments somewhere up-thread, that using an accredited FP dealer is not a guarantee (though it may offer better opportunities for a claim in case of future problems).

The first service on both my current and previous Ducatos were carried out at FP dealers. Neither used Selenia oil - the previous van had, I think, Fuchs (might have been Shell) and the current Urania, which is the Petronas accredited oil for the similar engine in the Iveco. Experience of oil used across the industry is that it is quite likely to be the closest match they have in the bulk tanks "round the back".

I've used 4 separate FP outlets round here. They are all multi-make sites, and there is very little demonstrable Fiat-specific knowledge or capability at most. One, though maintaining a large fleet of Ducato ambulances had only one mechanic who was Fiat trained (and patently didn't do servicing, which was left to the grease monkeys). Even then, I had to demonstrate to him that there were two service-intervals that need resetting, and how to do that for the oil!) Another patently knew nothing about Ducatos, but something about Iveco (hence the Urania oil as above).

Around here, you pay a significant premium for their lack of knowledge.

I prefer to do my own standard servicing, though I recognise my limits. Vanworld did a brake-fluid change for me, and Brownhills (of all people) who are FP accredited did the cam/auxiliary belts last year.  (though the correspondence was a pain, once booked in it was convenient, and cheap - maybe I should start to worry 😉) .