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Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
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userBrian Kirby
Posted: 6 August 2008 6:07 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


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Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Knaus Boxstar 600 Street


davenewell@home - 2008-08-06 6:47 AM OK Andy, see you at Malvern mate . D.

There's a few good 'ills around Malvern, Dave, if you and Andy are feeling brave!  I dare you, and can we all watch please?

userMrs Sea
Posted: 6 August 2008 7:48 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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Just had my Adria Twin back form Fiat. They have carried out a service and 3 recall fixes which are:- 1) remove boot on steering rack, grease and replace boot
2) replace started motor fuse
3)coat injector with anti-corrosion coating (2 coats).
Seems Peugeot are doing rather more.

I asked why they hadn't dealt with the real problem of water pouring onto the engine from the windscreen and scuttle, surely an anticorrosion coating is hardly going to solve this. He said that he could order me the 'Supplementary Kit' which is an engine cover to deflect the water. It also comes with a sealant to put behind the scuttle.

I said why wasn't this done the first time and he said it wasn't part of the Fiat recall, just an extra if requested by owner. It doesn't cost me anything to fit it apparently but I had to ask for it! They don't fit these to commercial Fiat Ducatos though, only motorhomes......?! I'll let you know if they do a decent job of fixing it.

Finally we discussed the juddering problem mentioned on this forum. So far my Twin has been fine but it is the 2.2 5 gear model. He said he had dealt with several of the 3l models reportedly with a judder in reverse. He stressed the Fiat line about needing 2000 revs and not trying to do it at idling speed. He personnally had reversed these vans up their steep ramp which leads from the underground basement to the salesroom above without any difficulty.
userTracker
Posted: 6 August 2008 7:54 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


I don't know for sure but I would have guessed that reversing the undriven rear wheels onto a garage ramp with the driven front wheels on a firm level floor was not comparing like for like in reversing the whole van up a similar gradient in real life when all four wheels will be on the incline with distractions like maybe a loose surface, other road users or a bend to contend with?

I like the new Ducato but I sure as hell ain't gonna buy one until a guaranteed free to me fix is established and proven - so I'm not holding my breath!

Edited by Tracker 2008-08-06 7:56 PM
userfred grant
Posted: 6 August 2008 7:59 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


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and remember, reversing up too fast could give you the bends aswell my biddy.

deepseadiverfred
userMelvin
Posted: 7 August 2008 9:07 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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May I suguest we all send a email to David Cameron, it will be a good oppertuntity to show us what he is made of.

camerond@parliment.uk
userDerek Uzzell
Posted: 7 August 2008 10:52 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


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Surely that e-mail address is wrong?
userMelvin
Posted: 7 August 2008 11:15 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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It from his site
userparkmoy
Posted: 7 August 2008 12:22 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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It from his site


It would be if you'd spelled parliAment correctly
userAndyStothert
Posted: 7 August 2008 2:47 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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After an 8000 mile tour of Europe when the van performed well enough I took it into the local Fiat dealers on Tuesday for them to listen to a strange rattling noise from the gearbox which had gradually been making itself heard whilst we were away.
The dealers have decided that it requires yet another replacement gearbox, and I'm beginning to wonder where all this will end.
What are we to do with this van?
Even if Fiat do come up with a fix for the juddering what else is going to drop to bits?
Will we be able to sell it? Ever?

userElliot
Posted: 7 August 2008 3:49 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 



Andy: Surely this is the time to say enough is enough. Let them replace the gearbox tell them you do not wish to have a judder of any shape or form. Then have your own engineer to inspect it before you accept it back and demand a certificate of no judder “for want of better terminology” for now or ever into the future. It will be on their premises unless you are 100% happy you are entitled not to accept it back. You never know it may work


Best of Luck


Edited by Elliot 2008-08-07 3:50 PM
userfred grant
Posted: 7 August 2008 7:55 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


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denzils garage is workin on a way to mate the old gearbox to the new engine. if successfull he says he will market it thro mmm, he does. but he will need a good supply of old stile gearboxes, me ansums, so if there any donors out there get in touch with den at trevithick garage. container loads would be quite welcome if this cums off my biddies.

f
usermike 202
Posted: 8 August 2008 1:28 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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Andy if you can find the cash and you PX if for a Ford/Merc etc base vehicle to a dealer who says that there is no such thing as a judder then you should get top Dollar and no excuses about depreciation because of judder etc.
I did the same myself. I could not in all honesty sell privately. So if the "no problem exists" dealers get stuck with unsaleable stock then its their fault for not being honest or helping the cause in the first place.

I still follow the thread with interest and inform as many fellow enthusiasts of the content of the thread and my own experiences.

Good Luck
Mike
userAndyStothert
Posted: 8 August 2008 5:18 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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Unfortunately (or fortunately) we really like our custom built camper, and if we were to p/x it for a stock item we would then have something we don't want.
So, what we'd have to do then is commission another custom built camper like the one we've got (but not on a Fiat or Peugeot - which is the only one which accommodates the layout, and is the only reason we ordered one) and, where was I? Oh yes, p/xing for a stock item, ordering another custom built one (12 months waiting time) then selling the stock item when the new custom built camper was ready. Have you all followed that? I'm exhausted just thinking about it.
If only Fiat could have built it without a howling great cock-up which should never have got through the testing procedures they say they have in place.
AND if I flog it some other poor sod will end up with it, and that isn't a very sociable thing to do to someone.
Every day Fiat and Peugeot continue to produce yet more of these defective vehicles - knowing the consequences - and it seesm there's nowt we can do about it except attempt to stop folk buying them.

IT APPEARS THAT FOLK ARE STILL POSTING ON THE ORIGINAL THREAD, WHICH IS A WASTE OF TIME AS ANY NEW POSTS WILL NOT SHOW ON THE FORUM.
And Colin - don't stop just because you've been misunderstood.

Edited by AndyStothert 2008-08-08 5:23 PM
userJeffus
Posted: 8 August 2008 5:29 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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Hi guys and gals,

Trying my third post, can't seem to make 'em stick. I have just joined your forums having heard of you on other forums.

I have been in touch with Andy S and am following this thread with interest/dread. I take delivery of a new Bessacarr E795 (160 multijet) on the 1st September. Dealer says I can have a test drive before acceptance but don't say what's gonna happen if I refuse to accept and do I get my deposit back?

I'll let you know how I get on. Hope it's not a judderer.

Jeffus.

Edit, just read the warning in caps at the bottom of Andy's last post. So THAT'S why my previous posts didn't stick. I'm new to this forum, I didn't know the old thread was defunct, sorry.

Edited by Jeffus 2008-08-08 5:40 PM
usergowerdog
Posted: 8 August 2008 11:47 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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If this has been pasted previously I apologise
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

VOLUNTARY RECALL SYSTEM Recall campaigns are launched and monitored as agreed in the various voluntary Codes of Practice formulated from discussions between the Department for Transport and representative bodies of the Motor Industry. These codes set out the guidelines on procedures for the recall of vehicles and components that have safety related defects, due to a feature of design or construction, and which are liable to cause significant risk of injury to the driver, occupants of the vehicle or other road users.

The first code was introduced in 1979, (a link to this code is at the top of the page) and applies to all motor vehicles sold in Great Britain. A further six codes have been introduced since 1982, (details of which can be obtained direct from Vehicle Safety Branch) and cover the following:

Trailers under 3500kg GVW
Commercial Trailers 3500kg and over
Tyres, Wheels and Valves
Motorcycles
Parts and Accessories
Pedal Cycles.
It is the responsibility of the manufacturer to inform VOSA when substantial evidence of a safety defect that requires remedial action, has been confirmed. Additionally, evidence may be presented to the manufacturer by VOSA as a result of investigations into accidents, and safety defects which have been brought to their attention from other sources.
usercolin weston
Posted: 9 August 2008 1:55 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


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Hi Andy, I thought I ought to give an update having been away for some time.
Contacting Peugeot Customer Care about the letter I sent them in in May this year regarding water ingress and judder I was told that they never received it despite it being sent to their new address! Strange isn't it? They soon got a copy by email.
I was then assured that my vehicle would appear to be operating within their expectations for this type of vehicle. Can you believe that!
I then queried whether Peugeot's expectations for it's range of cars is different from those of the commercial vehicles.

I have responded to the Camping & Caravan Club survey and also seperately emailed Barry Norris. I got an encouraging email from him. I'll say no more than that at present.

As you know, Jenni Reagan is no longer connected with Watchdog which goes on air again this Autumn. I will send another email to them but if they are to take up our complaints it needs everyone with the problem to contact them.

Finally, if we get nowhere with all the publicity we are currently getting and hope to get in the future I would be willing to help finance legal proceedings as a last resort. However, like you I had various modifications made to my van during build and I don't want to get rid of it! What I want is a solution to the juddering problem.
userSparky7
Posted: 9 August 2008 2:18 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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Following a test drive I have recently refused to accept a judderer and am now in the process of trying to get my £1000.00 deposit back - no luck so far!
userMel B
Posted: 9 August 2008 2:56 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


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Sparky7

If you haven't already, contact Trading Standards and get them involved. If the company are trying to fob you off with goods that are not 'fit for purpose' then you should have a case to get a full refund of your money back ... did you by any chance pay by credit card??
userkelly58
Posted: 9 August 2008 3:12 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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colin weston - 2008-08-09 1:55 PM Hi Andy, I thought I ought to give an update having been away for some time. Contacting Peugeot Customer Care about the letter I sent them in in May this year regarding water ingress and judder I was told that they never received it despite it being sent to their new address! Strange isn't it? They soon got a copy by email. I was then assured that my vehicle would appear to be operating within their expectations for this type of vehicle. Can you believe that! I then queried whether Peugeot's expectations for it's range of cars is different from those of the commercial vehicles. I have responded to the Camping & Caravan Club survey and also seperately emailed Barry Norris. I got an encouraging email from him. I'll say no more than that at present. As you know, Jenni Reagan is no longer connected with Watchdog which goes on air again this Autumn. I will send another email to them but if they are to take up our complaints it needs everyone with the problem to contact them. Finally, if we get nowhere with all the publicity we are currently getting and hope to get in the future I would be willing to help finance legal proceedings as a last resort. However, like you I had various modifications made to my van during build and I don't want to get rid of it! What I want is a solution to the juddering problem.

Have you received the VOSA recall notice regarding your Peugeot I had mine back in May and eventually had the work done on 29/30/31 of July  ( see my earlier post ) and because of the delay in getting booked in at the Peugeot dealer I have received 3 letters from VOSA regarding the recall.

usercolin weston
Posted: 9 August 2008 3:58 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


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kelly58
Yes I had the recall for checking the steering rack, upgrading a fuse and reprogramming the ECU. They also fitted an engine cover as a 'goodwill gesture'. I didn't get a collector like yours. I already had a cover fitted to the wiper motor but I moaned so much to the dealer about not having one on the starter motor that he fitted one even though he said he had no authority to do so. It appears that they are now charging for engine covers.
What I was complaining to Peugeot about was that there was no solution to stopping water ingress between the windscreen and the scuttle panel. Despite having tried to seal this joint I finally resorted to taping the joint which at least keeps the water out. I noticed recently when checking my engine oil level that the engine cover isn't fitted correctly. It is attached to two threaded studs at the rear but the two forward grommet mounts on the underside of the cover do not align with what appear to be 'grease nipple' like mounts on the top of the engine. Anyone else got this problem?
usercolin weston
Posted: 9 August 2008 4:04 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


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I have just sent an email to Watchdog who will be starting their programme in November. You can find them on the BBC website, just Google 'watchdog bbc'. They are inviting people to get in contact with them so the more of us who contact them now the better. Their email is watchdog@bbc.co.uk but make sure you give your name and address and contact tel number. I have advised them about articles in MMM and the Caravan Club magazine.
userTHE SHEPHERD
Posted: 9 August 2008 9:38 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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Many thanks Andy you have saved me close to £40000 today as Mrs was taken by the new R40,but as it has the groupe gear box for Fiat/Peugot/Citroen, I have decided its too much of a gamble. Any ideas for a really sound long lasting base vehicle in the MWB range.
Regards Shepherd
usersteamer
Posted: 10 August 2008 10:18 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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Yesterday i had a chance meeting with an old friend who has a mobile heavy plant fitting/service business , he is driving a 57 platelong wheelbase panel van fiat 160 with 6 speed box , naturally i quizzed him on it - his comments were " just eats hills , normally fully loaded at 3.5 ton ( plus some most of the time ! ) ", regularly has a trailer behind pushing it up to the 5 ton mark & with 15 k on the clock has had NO issues with clutch/g/box etc !.
when he asked my reason & i told him he just looked blank at me , he hadn't heard of any problems , all his comments were that it has its rattles & sqeaks & overall was better than the competition & considering the stick he gives it he's more than happy .
So i went & compared tyres - his 215/70/16 , ours 225/70/16 , i'm a little confused as to where the problem stems from , have we just got a batch of faulty flywheels floating about , is it the fact that there is some imbalance between cab & alko chassis or even as someone on here suspected faulty engine mountings - seen that before .
Ours as previously said is going back tomorrow to sort a faulty handbrake & i will try & sqeeze some info from them .

Steamer
userTHE SHEPHERD
Posted: 10 August 2008 11:07 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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Dear ALL
I have just spoken to our dealer who tells me that because the R40 is based on the Citroen Dispatch it is not affected by the group problems, is he right.
Any help appreciated. Shepherd
userBasil
Posted: 10 August 2008 11:44 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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If you are talking of the Romahome R40 they are indeed on a different chassis to those affected by this problem.
Go ahead and enjoy!

Bas
userTHE SHEPHERD
Posted: 10 August 2008 12:30 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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Thank you Basil you have made one lady very happy, as for me !!
Regards Shepherd
userAndyStothert
Posted: 10 August 2008 2:20 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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I tested a Citroen Dispatch for MMM a few months ago and it reversed up Honister Pass (1 in 5) without so much as a flutter, never mind a judder.
For those eejits who say driver technique may have some bearing on the juddering they should perhaps consider the fact that it is only the Ducato which is a problem. Have we ever had this kind of issue recently with any other vehicle?

userMotorhomeViews
Posted: 10 August 2008 3:35 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


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Dear Swift motorhomers
Guess the engineered problems are widespread and as such apply to all the Ducato X250's. looks like we are either going to accept the design faults or do something through the Law Courts.However having just paid our kids inheritence on our purchases do we want to outlay any more cash in persuing the judder issue? Suppose if we could get a petition running on the gov website, might be zero cost option.

Few questions spring to mind though, does anyone know how Peugot are engineering this judder out? Sure I read somewhere they have acknowledged the judder feature.
Why have no motoring organisations picked up on this issue, surely there must be some kind of quango set up for this, we have them for everything else in our lives, come on Gordon.

Does anyone know what the actual fix for the scuttle is? If you read my comments below, you will note my Unit has supposedly been rectified, should I have an engine cover and some form of drainage for the water pooling at each side of the scuttle?
___
My 2008 Swift 580PR 100 Multijet 2.2 supplied with the standard features listed below.

Engine:
Clutch judder supplied as standard with all fiat Ducato’s had smoking clutch in France while trying to reverse on to the levelling ramps. Always drive forward on to the ramp now. Fiat dealer says they have not heard of any reports of the judder issue reported the clutch as fine. Given conflicting advice, either increase the engine revs to avoid the shudder, decrease engine revs to prevent clutch slip.

Scuttle water ingress to the engine bay as standard water feature. Fiat main dealer has cleaned the engine and applied some kind of white stuff to various areas within the engine bay. Still have water reservoirs each side of the scuttle, the wiper spindle sits in a constant pool of water. Probably handy in case you find yourself running out of water maybe in a desert, could be a life saver.

Seals around the hatches poor, they have all turned black and gooey already .Makes the vehicle look much older than a 2008.

Is this off topic sorry if it is;

Big glob of mastic sealant on the roof about 2 inch diameter. Hope it’s not covering something up.

Bed collapsed on every occasion whilst in france for 9 weeks. Wife had to make modification using washing platted washing line down both sides of pull out bed lats. Bed lats splinters entered seat cushion.
New lats fitted at dealers , bed faults corrected by the dealer.

Gaslow system fitted at dealers . filler point installed at head height, makes difficult to hold the heavy filling gun at this height. Also blows gas back in to your face when you release the filling nozzle.

Now I have to say what a fantastic unit the X250 is apart from the obvious above.
It looks great
Performs brilliantly forward
Fantastic economy 35-40 mpg
Extremely comfortable
Easy to drive
Quiet operation
great all round views
Rear view mirrors give excellent vision. (has anybody had to replace one yet) French nutter Builder collided with my offside mirror. Made small hole in the casing, about £300 to replace. so if you ever see a 2008 Swift 580PR with red masking tape in the shape of the red cross , you'll know it's us.

Anyway thanks in anticipation for listing this in the Forum

userSparky7
Posted: 10 August 2008 3:56 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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Yes I did contact Trading Standards but they didn't really give me any advice - just told me what to do to seek redress in the small claims court; which I already know. Trouble is, if I do that and can't prove "unfit for purpose", which is difficult as I don't actually have the vehicle (thank goodness), the dealer can counterclaim for their expenses, which would include the fact that it was a special order, and they had already obtained various other items that I wanted fitted to it. I've written to them politely twice, and although they answered the first letter, to say they were having the vehicle checked out (by Fiat haha), they haven't yet answered my second letter. Life is too short to pursue cowboys through the courts, especially if I cannot be sure I'd win.
userTHE SHEPHERD
Posted: 10 August 2008 3:59 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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I feel better about the R40 now as I have driven sheep up Honister so If it copes with that it will do. Many thanks to all who gave advice and help. The Shepherd
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