Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder

[PSHORT]

Aside from the juddering problem(has the recall work cured it??!!) how did you check your mpg? Has anyone compared mpg results from the onboard computer and working it out manually. I have twice and to my figures the computer is optimistic by a worrying amount 20mpg/29mpg. Perhaps this should be a new thread. I will repeat on our next trip in a couple of weeks.

This on a 3l 160 is certainly no better (maybe worse) than my old 2.8l. Both panel van conversions.

[Melvin]

It would appear we are now begining to make an affect. My dealer has told me, they now check their motorhomes in reverse. I wonder why?

 

As regard revising the reverse gear ratio, due to the credit crunch and the adverse publicity. There is a very large stockpile of unconverted powertrains at both Fiat and the coachbuiders, it will some time after Jan 09 before we see the revision.

 

 

[AndyStothert]

Peugeot's decision to come clean is a bit late but at least they have put owners minds at rest as to the long term future of their motorhomes.

Even if they do, in a very roundabout manner, admit that they are still being produced in defective state.

With stockpiles as they are at both the manufacturers and converters the first of the modified new vehicles converted will probably not appear until April next year, so it seesm safe to say that buying one until then there will be a good chance of getting a duffer.

 

At least if you buy a Peugeot they will sort it out, but as things stand, with Fiat still denying a fault exists, buying a Fiat based motorhome new until at least April would be a very risky investment.

 

[colin]

Copied from RandM's thread

Yes we have the judder. The van has recently been for a service as it is 12 months old. The Fiat servicing manager put the following on the invoice "Judder in reverse. Road tested & found to be the normal shudder in reverse, common to this model, at this moment in time there is no way we can improve it.

It is an Adria Twin 120 3.3 tn. so that we have only one further year of vehicle warranty.(MMM Motorhome Matters Aug) The above may well be of some value and it was obtained thanks to MMM editorials which are very much appreciated.

I was recently told by an engineer with many years experience of Fiat vans that with this new model the ratio of the reverse gear has been increased. With the experience Ferrari and Maserati etc. to call on you would think that Fiat would do better, but this might be exactly what has happened. Peugot have also similar sources and evidently they all find their way to Sevel.

You would expect errors to be sorted out with new versions, but think about water drainage under the windscreen. We had this several years ago with a coachbuilt Pilote (but not with a subsequent Pilote A class. Well you wouldn't would you).

So where does this leave us. I can't believe that only 300 people are involved. I would have thought 3000 would be nearer the mark. The cost of replacing the judder (with a new one) I am told is about £500 and evidently the reason for Fiat's reluctance to do anything. Only two have been changed locally I understand one of which was the result of a young chap getting into the family motorhome and getting it stuck in grass. He had then revved and revved digging a larger and larger hole.

It is good to see on this Forum that there may be a move by Peugot.

So how can Fiat be encouraged to cure the problem for us. MMM are doing a first class job but they must obviously keep within tactful limits which they most certainly do.

A lawyer is not likely to want to handle claims for £500 but Fiat might take notice if there were 3000 or so and legal expenses of £1000 per time were to be expected. A lawyer might well gain a lot from an advertisement in MMM with a variety of cases coming from motorhomers. A half page might do readers and the lawyer a lot of good.

It has been mentioned that we should expect to receive something suitable for the purpose for the not inconsiderable sums expended. This is so but only applies between buyer and seller, i.e. motorhome owner and their vendor (dealer). The chain from here to Fiat is through the converter and each dealer would have to be sufficiently interested to persue the matter and the same with the converter. Direct action with Fiat is what is needed I would hope that a way can be found.

[Brian Kirby]

Hmmmm!  I wonder if Fiat will have a stand at the NEC?  I also wonder whether the judderers united might be persuaded to all turn up together and, in the way of these things, I just wonder some more if national and local TV were told there might be a bit of fun, and were suitably briefed beforehand, and offered a juddering demonstration, whether they might arrive and film it all and ask if Fiat had any comment?  Just wondering, that's all!  :-)

[yeti]

Brian I believ there are rumblings about a represenation to FIAT if they are at the NEC. What would lose it if there were some hot heads in that group,out to cause trouble.

The situation with the Transit has given me some thoughts. Was this engine originally designed for rear wheel drive. I remember a bus producer building a front wheel drive vehicle using a Land Rover engine and within 6 months of use the transmission failed,I don't know if they had juddering.

The firm was Omni.

[Derek Uzzell]

Yeti:

 

The 2.0litre motor fitted to Year 2000-2006 Transits was intended for FWD models only and is quite different to the the 2.4litre powerplant fitted to RWD Transits. Year 2006-onwards FWD Transits have a 2.2litre engine that's essentially an increased-capacity version of the 2.0litre. A variant of the 2.2litre motor is also fitted to the lower-powered models in the current Boxer/Ducato/Relay ranges.

 

Not sure what you mean by "the situation with the Transit". Are you under the impression that the juddering characteristic also afflicts Transit? Because that's not the case.

 

Mk 6 and Mk 7 Transits (FWD and RWD) have been generally criticised for being stall-prone when moving off and (in Brian Kirby's FWD Hobby's case) for having an all-or-nothing accelerator response. I think it has been suggested on this forum that ECU re-mapping might improve matters, and I believe there have been Ford-dealer remaps carried out on RWD vehicles as part of the Transit's normal development process during the last 8 years, but I'm pretty sure there's been no Ford-approved remapping of FWD Transits.

 

I doubt if ECU remapping would do much good anyway, as my own feeling is that (on Transit FWDs) the tendency to stall and the lack of accelerator sensitivity are largely due respectively to the high 1st gear and the crappy accelerator design.

[yeti]

Derek

I was prompted to consider this due to the fact that the engine fitted to my 3litre Fiat is the same as that used by Ford. In fact they are produced in a factory in Milan and also badged out as Iveco units.

[Guest Tracker]

I see from page 37 of this month's MMM that the DJ Johnnie Walker has bought a new Fiat based Autotrail Cheyenne from Chelston Motorhomes.

 

It is pointless talking to Chelston because they very much play down the reversing issue but maybe a high profile figure like a Radio two DJ might be a good guy to have on board for the fight?

 

 

[Mel B]

But someone needs to tell Johnnie Walker that he might have a problem in reverse ... anyone know how best to get a message through to him????

[PSHORT]

Re Johnnie Walker I have sent an e-mail to his Radio 2 e-mail suggesting he checks out this website

[yeti]

I also sent an email to Johnnie a few weeks ago,apart from you I wonder who else.

I also wrote to Watchdog.

[PSHORT]

I thought he(Johnnie W) had in fact bought his M/Home some time ago, one wonders did he get your e-mail, if so before or after he purchased, he is mechanically so-minded I believe so one would think he is aware of the problems.

In my e-mail yesterday I forgot to mention water leaks only the juddering so if anyone further sends to him perhaps add just 'a dash of water' to the JOHNNIE WALKER!

[Guest Tracker]

PSHORT - 2008-08-17 8:49 AM

 

I thought he(Johnnie W) had in fact bought his M/Home some time ago, one wonders did he get your e-mail, if so before or after he purchased, he is mechanically so-minded I believe so one would think he is aware of the problems.

In my e-mail yesterday I forgot to mention water leaks only the juddering so if anyone further sends to him perhaps add just 'a dash of water' to the JOHNNIE WALKER!

 

I did exactly that last night and also referred him to both Andy and to Rachel Stothert at Warners as well as the MMM and OAL websites.

 

Whether the BBC will allow these emails through is another matter though and we could do with a more direct method of approach.

[colin]

I emailed him back in may about it, proboly thought I was some kind of nutcase, wonder if he's had any judder since, keep your eye out for any new member called johnny or dj :D

[Guest Tracker]

Over the last 20 years I have had a number of Sevel based vans starting with a Talbot Express in 1986 and ending with a Ducato 2.3 jtd now.

 

They have all WITHOUT EXCEPTION given me good, reliable, dependable service and all have done exactly what it says on the tin.

 

I have no doubt that once Fiat get this latest van sorted it will do the same.

 

Shame the same cannot be said of Fiat, Peugeot or Citroen dealers who are best avoided once out of warranty.

[Melvin]

I just returned from my motorhome agent aftercare (nightmare), amongst other problems, I vocally raised the question about my transmissin judder in a very busy recption.

 

All of a sudden they became intrestest in my complaint. They asked if Justin had been in contact with me, you all know the answer to that question.

 

In addition to the standard letters you have all recieved from Fiat, I have letter from trading standards in regards the motorhome dealer and the Fiat garage which inspected the motorhome. ' It seems that they are unable to find the cause for the SHUDDERING and therefore, unable to assist in a remedy'.

 

Trading standards, ' however the traders are not willing to negotiate because of the PRESS RELEASE issued.

[Melvin]

I just would kike to add, whilst at my dealer today, they let slip another case on their books, a new Fiat X250 Autorail Scout.

 

Andy I think the new owners will be contacting you in the very near future.

[ColinC]

Last week Andy Stothert posted on both this forum and MHF a message to the effect that Peugeot accepted that that they need to make changes to the ECU and reverse gear to resolve the reversing judder. I raised the question on MHF as to whether, bearing in mind that some (all?) of the engines installed by Peugeot were different from the Fiat units, the same or different gearboxes were installed by Peugeot and Fiat. I asked if anyone had this information. Interestingly there has been no response. Does anyone on this forum know? If the gearboxes are indeed the same (including the same ratios for reverse gear) then the hopes for a fix from Fiat might (?) be higher than if the gearboxes/ratios are different?

 

Colin

[colin]

The Pug fix is for 5 speed box, have you got that or 6 speed?

[MotorhomeViews]

Colin has answered saying the fix is for the 5 peugeot speed box. Does this mean we may be closer to a resolution?

 

[AndyStothert]

The simple answer (and I've been busy finding out during the last few months) about the question of shared parts between the Peugeot Boxer and Fiat Ducato is that the only difference is that Fiat use the Iveco 2.3 litre engine as the mid range powerplant whilst Peugeot use a 'chipped' version of the 2.2 litre engine which powers the 100 series vehicles with both badges.

The 'chipped' version is attached to the same 6 speed box which Fiat use with the 2.3 litre engine. The 5 speed box is usesd by both on the 100 series, and the 6 speed box is also used in both Peugeot and Fiat 160 ranges.

All (as far as we know) the damaged gearboxes and clutches have occurred on the 130 and 160 series with 6 speed boxes. Personally I haven't driven a single 6 speed variant that doesn't have the destructive judder, but have sampled a coudp of 5 speed ones that arent nearly as bad.

After speaking to the Peugeot people a few weeks ago and them saying that the lower reverse gear ratio would be fitted to all vehicles, a later conversation with Ian Sedgewick (the PR manager) seemed to contradict this slightly in that he said the 6 speed box is the one subject to the lower ratio reverse gear, and I understood him to mean that the 5 speed versions will only get the ECU re-map - and then see what happens.

They said that they will confirm this ASAP.

Meanwhile on Planet Fiat, where they build all these vehicles, they are still keeping quiet and hoping that it will all go away without them having to fix our vans.

Another much more disturbing fact to emerge from the Italian Judderers is that they say there are literally thousands of motorhome specific vehicle stockpiled at the Sevel plant, and that every day the stockpiles get bigger. If the gearbox mods are introduced into the production line in January (a big IF) it may be as long as JULY before any of these find their way to a motorhome production line, and consequently NEXT OCTOBER before a modified non judderer (and gearbox/clutch eater) is available as a motorhome.

 

So if you're thinking of buying one, and the salesman tells you it is all sorted out walk away - he's fibbing.

[davenewellhome]

yesterday I drove a Peugeot variant with the 6 speed box and it was by far the worst vibrater I've encountered :-S :$ to date! It only juddered/vibrated when slipping the clutch, once it was fully engaged it was OK although a bit whiney. I advised the owners to report it to Peugeot along with the water ingress issues that have not been dealt with on his one week old van :-( . Gut feeling, now that I've experienced a bad 'un is that reverse gear is indeed too high and therefore requires a more than fair amount of clutch slip for a controlled take off, especially on hills! The clutch was also very sharp, certainly more so than the rest I've driven.

 

D.

[AndyStothert]

Oh come on Dave, don't be so modest. You must have encountered much worse vibrators in your long and illustrious time in the top shelf magazine trade.

 

At least the Peugeot owner has the prospect of a cure to hold onto - unlike all the Fiat owners.

On the subject of good uns and bad uns ours (gearbox number 3, but orginal sharp clutch) is quite a modest judderer, but is taken to places where life does mean reversing up hills, and obviously can't stand the conditions.

Nowhere on the Fiat packaging did it say 'Can't reverse up steep hills without damaging the gearbox'.

What's now worrying me is that if Fiat don't fix them when the warranty runs out this vehicle will be a liablilty.

I'd have thought the dealers would have been kicking up a real fuss with Fiat right now as the future doesn't look good for these vans. But no, they use the defect to get them cheap, then deny there is one when they sell them. Best of both worlds.

For the October NEC Show we have a lovely idea forming to cause absolute havoc for those selling Fiat motorhomes, and the beauty of it is that it is legal, effective and won't even get volunteers thrown out.

If you want to turn up and help let me know.

It will cost about a fiver each for essential equipment.

[colin]

I'm sure there must be some decent salemen out there somewhere, BUT, most I've dealt with appear to be people that are rejected by the motor trade for being too dodgy.

Andy whats the latest on which gearbox Peugeot intead to modify 5 or 6 speed?

Re the stockpiled vans, the next thing will be to find out chassis number when Fiat (hopefully) mod van and how to spot differance between an 'old' box and new one, but I'm proboly getting to far in advance on this one