Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder

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Andy's point about telling a little white lie about buying a new fiat, at last years York show I asked 4 large motorhome dealers about the water ingress in the new Fiat x250 they all said they had never heard of the problem even though it had been well publicised, I was looking to buy a new van but said I would not touch the X250 because of the water problems.

 

Terry

[AndyStothert]

Henry,

I agree that widening the awarenes of this defect to a national platform would be a good thing. I've tried, but they don't seem to be interested in such an ancient well off middle class minority as us.

If you can make it happen we would be very grateful.

We did get the van magazines involved briefly, but ownership, usage and magazine buying patterns are so different that they lost interest.

I mean if you're van driver a bit of a judder or the odd duff gearbox is of no consequence. And White Van Man doesn't do a lot of uphill reversing in the short life of a fleet vehicle. We are a very different animal.

But as I said any help is welcome, so get your pen out rather than just rubbish what others are doing.

Or even suggest something the rest of us haven't thought of?

[John Day]

Hi Andy

Please don't be in the least put off by the doubters or moaners the vast majority of us agree with you entirely, fortunately for me you are able to put things in writing that I'm unable to get down on paper, it's in my head but never makes sense, or is to long winded when I try to write it down.

 

My Dethleffs Esprit I7870L, Fiat, 3.0L, 5 Ton, 6 Gear, Tag Axle (see it's got everthing to fit the problem) has got judder in reverse uphill and smokes like a chimney even going forward when trying to manoeuvre on full lock uphill, the 1300 sugested rpm only seems to make it smoke worse, and for those who are now going to say it's my driving, like Fiat have, I've driven about 1 1/2 Million miles in company vehicles and never had a clutch.

 

So keep it going Andy, even for those like me that are not so good at getting it down on paper.

 

I have written to Fiat, Dethleffs, the dealer and MMM

 

John :-D

[colin]

Similier to you john, my GTW would have been around 5.5t with trailer, was about to order when andy's thread came up, luckily I realised not a hope in hell of that working.

[AndyStothert]

For any of you who have the judders and are wondering what to do but haven't seen our info sheet just email me and I will send you one - andystothert@blueyonder.co.uk

 

All it is is list of who whinge at to firstly protect yourself, and secondly to try and make Fiat and Peugeot sort this mess out.

 

 

[PSHORT]

A week ago 24th July I sent a letter to Dwain Meek Customer services at Fiat.

I described how during a 600 mile round trip I found myself needing to complete a tight 3-point turn. Soon after we had to drive forwards onto Fiamma wedges to level the van. On both occasions we had a smoking clutch the smell of which hung around for a good hour afterwards. I wonder how many times we will be able to drive on to levellers with the original clutch.

I like many others have covered thousands of miles in a variety of vehicles without

having to replace a clutch(including 90k in a 1961 mini van! I have asked Mr Meek

would he accept limitations on 3-point turns in his own private vehicle. As yet no answer but as Fiat UK seem to have fled back to Italy in hiding I don't expect one.

Murvi Morello

[kelly58]

My Dec 2006 Peugeot 2.2 Hdi 5 Speed unit has just had the VOSA recall work carried out by my local Peugeot Dealer.The main items were Water Ingress which was cured successfully and a cover added to the wiper motor and another mod added to the bracket under wiper motor with drain pipe ( see photo ) to stop the water dripping onto engine / steering rack removed  rebushed regreased and modified retaining bolts fitted / gearbox and diff removed new parts fitted / all underbonnet electrics sealed against moisture / downloaded new software to engine management system  all work carried out over 3 days. As we live in the " flatlands " we will have to wait until we go to north Wales next week to find some hills to reverse up to see if all is ok although I must say I had not noticed any juddering in the past .It seems Peugeot are doing their best to sort things out we had terrific heavy rain last night but everything was good and dry this morning under the bonnet.

[AndyStothert]

The 5 speed versions are definitely less prone to the juddering problems and the vast majority are the 2.3 litre Fiat engined vehicles. Not that the 5 speed ones are totally immune.

The work on the differential relates to completely unrelated recall which affected a number of 5 speed models which had a badly machined diff casing and some bolts worked loose.

This has absolutely nothing to do with the juddering, so don't all start jumping up and down thinking deliverance is at hand.

If only.

And that central drain certainly isn't fitted to our Fiat.

 

Ours goes in (again) next week as there is now a rather strange rattling noise coming from the clutch. It could be the release bearing, but who knows.

[AndyStothert]

It's probably time for an update as to the numbers of motorhome owners who are suffering from the judders, or worse, gearbox and clutch failures.

These however are just the ones we do know about.

To illustrate this, and to put these figures into perspective I notice that there is a post today on this very forum by someone suffering from the judders who certainly isn't on the list I've accumulated. So we have proably only a small percentage of the suffers recorded I think.

Plus, it seems that many have swallowed Fiat and Peugeot's assertion that it is nothingv to worry about.

Anyway, with three different sources keeping records (MMM, The Motorcaravanners Club, and me, who did a runner for 3 months) we know that there are at least 300 complaints from motorhome owners.

Despite requests to do so Fiat and Peugeot cannot supply accurate numbers of complaints, gearbox failures, or clutch failures on these vehicles.

 

[yeti]

My new vehicle,as previously reported ,also has this problem.

I have spent a lot of money on it and I want the fault rectified. When it started juddering I had heard about giving it some more revs,this just caused it to smoke,quite severely. If it is a chassis built especially for motorhomes it is even more disturbing. Whilst I agree in dealing with the issue on an individual basis,unity is strength. I would like to see other people becoming involved such as the converters,it would certainly affect their sales.The clubs Caravan and also Camping who should be looking after its members interests rather than trying to sell them loans and credit cards and also the SMMT.

These last groups seem to be rather silent.

I will be writing to the retailer,converter and to FIAT and see what happens.

[colin]

I've taken the liberty of copying your post from other thread, thats the trouble of having two threads running.

It's happened to me this week on a site near Great Harwood. Whilst trying to reverse onto a pitch the van gave a wonderful impersonation of a destroyer 'making smoke' Juddering was unbelievable. I left it on site for the week and when I came to move it today the clutch pedal was to the floor and the clutch was slipping severely.

It also 'thumps' on start up.

I am going to write to Auto-trail this weekend,I feel that a perfectly good conversions reputation is being jepordised by this fault.

My vehicle is an Auto-Trail Scout on the Maxi 6-speed 3l engine.

My previous motohome was a Hymer 544 on a Ducato 2.5TD which I drove for 16 years and put 90.000 on it with never a moments trouble.

The new van is 2 months old with just 300 on the clock!!!

There is a lot of anger about this issue,especially when you have just spent £60k on your dream vehicle!

 

[yeti]

I have tested my vehicle today and found that on anything above level ground it is juddering. Whilst this bears no strength in my argument I will now proceed to my next step and commission an independent engineer's report. I believe that any FIAT main agent may be on orders 'not to dig too deep'. I will also contact non motorhome users and converters of the FIAT chassis.

I have worked in the area of minbus welfare conversions and I will conduct a straw poll amongst them as to how many are using a FIAT chassis and if not why not. Also the national representative body for organisations who use the welfare conversions. I will keep you posted.

 

[david lloyd]

yeti - 2008-08-02 10:02 PM

 

My new vehicle,as previously reported ,also has this problem.

I have spent a lot of money on it and I want the fault rectified. When it started juddering I had heard about giving it some more revs,this just caused it to smoke,quite severely. If it is a chassis built especially for motorhomes it is even more disturbing. Whilst I agree in dealing with the issue on an individual basis,unity is strength. I would like to see other people becoming involved such as the converters,it would certainly affect their sales.The clubs Caravan and also Camping who should be looking after its members interests rather than trying to sell them loans and credit cards and also the SMMT.

These last groups seem to be rather silent.

I will be writing to the retailer,converter and to FIAT and see what happens.

 

The Camping and Caravanning Club are giving an excellent opportunity to do just this in the August edition of their magazine (page 86).

 

The article reads:

 

"Has part of your camping unit failed recently?"

 

"Among the calls received by the Technical Department are a number concerning the failure of components in units earlier than expected. The club would like to track this to try to assess the scale of the problem.

If part of your caravan, motorhome, trailer tent, folding camper or tent has failed and is five years old or less you can help by filling in our questionnaire online at campingandcaravanningclub.co.uk/unitfailures or call us on 024 7647 5282 for a paper copy."

 

Worth getting them involved.

 

David

[Meadows Engine]

Am I correct in believing that this Judder problem does not occur in the 3litre automatic, or is this just whistful thinking as its just an robotised gearbox which can therefore be affected?

 

Help I have one on order!!

[Elliot]

Colin: I think you have succeeded in your censorship so give it a rest now

[AndyStothert]

Re the 3 litre automatic it appears from the limited experience yet of this version of the Ducato that it doesn't suffer from the judders.

That's the good news. The bad news is that Fiat say it can't be retro fitted.

The new auto box was delayed considerably as we all wonder if this wasn't due to some remedial work, and nobody has as yet been able to examine the box to check that is physically identical (casings etc) to the manual version. If any body has seen the technical specification (ratios etc) this may enlighten us. Then again it may not as the Italian Judderers reckon Fiat knew about the problem right from the start (just after it was too late) so published incorrect data.

They say they can prove it too. But only in court.

So back to the original question, so far none of the auto versions tested seem to judder.

[davenewellhome]

Today I had a 3 litre Fiat in the workshop and had to reverse it onto my new lift. As the lift is an 8 Tonne job the platform is fairly substantial resulting in a deck height of 250mm when its down. The ramps onto the deck are 900mm long giving a ramp angle of around 1:4.5. The motorhome did vibrate quite unpleasantly while going up but managed it with just 900rpm and no clutch smoking. This vehicle exhibited the worst vibration in reverse of any I've tried to date but I'd still not say it felt potentially terminal or even potentially damaging.

 

D.

[Goldcoaster]

Hi Andy,

I am contemplating ordering a new 3 litre Automatic (MTA) and would love

to get positive info regarding their "Judderbility."

Surely, Fiat must produce Service/Parts manuals for the 2 transmissions, and being able to view them would enable us to examine the similarity, if any, between the two.

Do you think that they would be available to private owners?

Keep up the good work.

Regards, Bill

[Itexuk]

Some info on the x250.

http://www.italiaspeed.com/new_models/2006/fiat/ducato/companion.html

 

[Melvin]

Unfortunately I to have a Fiat X250, to date I have aborted two holidays.

Early July, despite using 2500 to 3000 rpm could not reverse up a slope to my pitch at Ilam Park, late July, I just could not reverse onto my grass pitch on the top field at Trewethett Farm.

 

We are now afraid to reverse due to parts falling of the motorhome, in the worst case the electric connections shook out of the charger.

 

Fortunately I am experiencing NO Problems reversing up these slopes on my lightweight mobility scooter.

 

My dealer has returned my motorhome to Fiat on two seperate occasions, they could find nothing wrong. However with persistance (contacting trading standards and asking for my money back) my dealer has aquired new entusiasm, and contacted Fiat Proffesional.

 

I have now had my motorhome examine by a Fiat Commercial garage, on a very slight gradient they noticed severe transmission vibration, and noted the clutch was slipping in reverse.They are supplying me a copy of the written report to be forwarded to Fiat. My dealer is now chasing Fiat.

 

If I can offer any advice:

(a) stick your heels in,

(b) contact trading standards,

© ask Fiat motorhome owners on site if they have familiar experiences,

(d) advise anyone who will lsten to you fo your problems,

(e) eventually Fiat and the dealers will be hurts by loss of sales,

(f) give your coachbuilder in my case Autotrail some grief,

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

Melvin

It would help if you could quote the name and whereabouts of the Fiat Commercial garage who were so helpful and have offered you a copy of their report to Fiat.  I think there may be others who would value that kind of response.

[Meadows Engine]

Thanks for the reply to my post,was the 3ltr davenewell(4 Aug)drove up his ramps manual or automatic?

The Italiaspeed site says the 6 speed boxes used on the 2.3 &3.0 are "differentiated on the basis of levels of engine torgue" and goes on to say that TWO new manual 6spd boxes have been developed, the 2.3 having a 2 axle gear box whilst the 3.0 has a 3 axel gear box with multicone type synchronisers on all speeds (excl 5th & 6th) but including reverse. Would this help it?

Fiat make a big deal out of their gearbox designed for motorhomes, does a converted high top panel van just have a standard commercial box.

 

 

[Dave Newell]

Can't comment on the makeup or ratios of any of the gearboxes but the one I drove the yesterday was manual. The automatic (ASM) box is by all accounts immune to the judder/vibration.

 

D.

[AndyStothert]

Dave,

This unpleasant juddering you experienced - how do you think it would affect things on a gradient twice or three times as steep for nearly half a mile?

The thing is that whilst this isn't a common occurrence this is the situation we found ourselves in on a single track public road with no weight restrictions (etc) when we met a small lorry towing a trailer coming up the other way which couldn't obvisouly reverse back down again. Result - one broken gearbox.

A month ago, in Croatia we were forced to abort a ferry crossing because they wanted us to drive onto the ferry and then reverse off on the other side up a steep ramp - this is how motorcaravanning is with a Fiat Ducato - you have to consider every possible reversing situation in advance, and this isn't easy talking to a Croatian seaman who obviously thinks you are bonkers when you tell him that a new vehicle can't revsere up steep hills.

Then there's the wet grass in Spain. These things do not like wet grass.

 

Five weeks ago we went to campsite where the pitches were on terraces overlooking the sea (very nice too) but had to decline staying there because the terraces involved driving up and down a series of steep ramps about 100 yards long - so half would be reversing up and out.

So we had to leave this idyllic situation because the van will not reverse up a steep slope without either smoking the clutch or knackering the gearbox.

Now I don't want to fall out with a mate, but your workshop ramp is hardly a true test.

 

[AndyStothert]

Oh I forgot to add that all this garbage about special gearboxes for motorhomes is just that - our small panel van conversion is just the same and has the same 6 speed three shaft box as all the others.

And of course the same destructive juddering.

 

This also rules out all the talk (from Peugeot) about only big heavy motorhomes being affected as ours is a very lightweight van conversion.