Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder

[Rayjsj]

Oh Dear, it really is going to be a minefield buying a second hand Sevel based Motorhome or panel van conversion. Even a 'new' one for the next two years or so,until the present stock of chassis are cleared from stock.

Any,Any other base vehicle but don't even think of a 'Sevel' it's just too much of a gamble. Come on Fiat, the 'ball' is in your court. :D :D

[Itexuk]

Just had 12 month service and 5 recalls done, one which was a re map of the ECU. My August 2007 Ducato 130 X250 did vibrate a small amount in reverse but not enough to worry me. Pleased to report that after the re map things have improved 100% and now little or no vibration in reverse.

[mickann]

Hi Do you mind telling us what 5 recalls you had done.

[Itexuk]

mick&ann - 2008-08-21 11:08 AM

 

Hi Do you mind telling us what 5 recalls you had done.

 

I think they were:

Re pack grease on steering arm

Replace a fuse. Not sure what on.

Re map on ECU to help stop judder in reverse

Seal scuttle to stop water ingress

Spray 2 coats of silicone on and around injectors to stop rust.

 

[AllanF]

Hello Everyone

Just about to pick up my first new motorhome, an Autotrail Chieftain SE with a Fiat 160 engine tied to a Fiat Automatic 6 speed gearbox, has anybody had judder problems with the Auto box. Any advise welcome.

Thanks

[catinou]

It's been confirmed! We definitely have "the judder" >:-(

 

We have just had our first service on our 3 litre Fiat Ducato and having registered a possible judder problem in May, the Fiat dealer has confirmed we have "it". They have confirmed this to Fiat, quoting our Fiat reference from May and say that we are now "in the system" for a future recall.

 

Apparently, as long as it has been inspected and registered within the warranty period that should safeguard us, even when "out of warranty". :-S

 

We will now see how long it takes ................ 8-)

[fred grant]

u is dealing with fiat, not mercedes, catinou my biddy. best of luck.

 

f

[AndyStothert]

I do hope all you other sufferers haven't let Fiat fob you off with all sorts of bull. .

Ensure you have an official case number for your complaint is the first thing. Don't let the dealers tell you a recall is on the way - it isn't - Fiat have not yet admitted there is a fault and don't want to because of the cost of stripping every gearbox and replacing the reverse gear.

Fiat also say that there is no recall for an ECU change to alleviate the juddering because there is no fault so why should they alter the ECU.

The post that says the judder is minimal probably hasn't tried it on a decent gradient.

Ours doesn't judder at all on the flat and next week it receives its third gearbox because of this defect.

So OK we drive in hilly places, and he may not, but what of the next unsuspecting owner? He/she may expect it to be able to reverse up a hill and break the box in the process.

So come on get off y'r inept bums and get whinging to Fiat. Everyone.

[Itexuk]

AndyStothert - 2008-08-22 5:19 PM

 

I do hope all you other sufferers haven't let Fiat fob you off with all sorts of bull. .

Ensure you have an official case number for your complaint is the first thing. Don't let the dealers tell you a recall is on the way - it isn't - Fiat have not yet admitted there is a fault and don't want to because of the cost of stripping every gearbox and replacing the reverse gear.

Fiat also say that there is no recall for an ECU change to alleviate the juddering because there is no fault so why should they alter the ECU.

The post that says the judder is minimal probably hasn't tried it on a decent gradient.

Ours doesn't judder at all on the flat and next week it receives its third gearbox because of this defect.

So OK we drive in hilly places, and he may not, but what of the next unsuspecting owner? He/she may expect it to be able to reverse up a hill and break the box in the process.

So come on get off y'r inept bums and get whinging to Fiat. Everyone.

 

Andy, All I can say is that when I booked my Ducato 130 in for it 12 month service I was told there was 5 recall to be done. One of them was a re map of the ECU, when I collected it I was told it had been done.

My judder IS minimal, ( Have reported it to my dealer) I must have a goodish one and YES I do drive it up hills. I live on a very steep private road and have to reverse it 50 metres to get it in my drive at least once a week.

If you want to check re ECU re map give Foray Motor Group a new Fiat dealer in Bridgwater Somerset a ring on 01278 727910 Mr Dave Vowles

[AndyStothert]

Thanks for that - I'll ring them on Tuesday.

It may be that Fiat ARE going to attempt to get rid of as many complaints as possible with a remap of the ECU but are unwilling to 'cough' to the fact in public.

But so far they are still refusing to talk about the juddering as a defect.

I'll let you know what everybody says - if Fiat will discuss it.

[ColinC]

Hi Andy

Thanks for the clarification re my request about the differences if any between Fiat and Peugeot gearboxes.

 

Hi Itexuk

There was a recall number 5247 (Fiat call them campaigns!) dating from last year which involved a modification to the ECU. This was one of 5 'recalls' done on my 'van (2.3 litre/130) during October and December last year. The ECU mod was actually done before we took delivery of the van so I don't know if the judder is better or worse ; it is certainly there now.

It would be interesting to know if your ECU remap was indeed number 5247 ; and if not what number is it, when did Fiat introduce it, and which engines(s) does it apply to? Something for Andy to have in mind also when it talks to your garage.

 

Colin

[AndyStothert]

I've been asked by another poor soul who is conducting the still ongoing water ingress battle with Fiat to ask you all to sign a web petition which is to be found on

http://www.petition.co.uk/water ingress to engine re fiat peugeot

 

Any bad publicity for Fiat is good publicity at the moment so go and 'sign' it.

[Clive]

Peculiar Andy,

The petition web site says :-

"Petition does not exist"

 

Does this mean its never been created or that it has been withdrawn?

 

C.

 

[AndyStothert]

Clive,

I've put the address in which I got, but perhaps there should be no gaps between the last few words - the Fiat and Peugeot bits.

You know how fearful and unskilled I am with all this web stuff. Well everything invented since my clockwork Meccano bits really. And the old Fiat 500 in the garage.

[fred grant]

your fiat 500 would be in the garage wouldn't it andy my biddy. gearbox problems perchance?

 

us do think you aught to rethink the maker of your personal transport me ansum.

 

ritesedfred

[rowley]

I think that this might be it-- http://www.petition.co.uk/water_ingress_to_engine_re_fiat__peugeot

 

I understand that it was to close today.

There was over 270 signatures yesterday.

[AndyStothert]

Fred,

We've had that Fiat 500 for years and it's still as good as the day it was built in 1972. It's never had a new clutch, has a 'crash' box which has been totally reliable, it will reverse up a mountain side, and is worth ten times what we paid for it all those years ago. Oh and it does 60 to the gallon.

 

But of course, what with forty years of automotive prgress to improve things, our new Fiat Ducato is much much better. Well it should have been, however I suspect it won't still be with us in four years never mind nearly forty.

And I use a bike as personal transport. One of those with rod brakes and an oil bath chain.

And.....how come no matter how many doses of drivel I put on here my score stays at 219?

[Derek Uzzell]

Andy:

 

Your 'score' is a total linked to your Profile and it's incremented by one each time you post to any of the O&ALive forums. But the revised total is not applied just to your most recent posting, it's applied to ALL your past postings as well. It's not indicating "This posting is Andy Stothert's 219th", it's indicating that Andy Stothert has (across all the O&ALive forums on this website) posted 219 times.

 

If your next posting is a reply to this one, you'll notice that your score will then clock up by one to 220 and so will the score on all your earlier postings.

[AndyStothert]

Derek, thanks for that. I'm sure I'll develop the necessary deductive powers to understand it one day. So it should now read 220 right the way through?

 

Meanwhile if there is anybody out there with a new a new X250 Boxer or Ducato based motorthome with a judder in the transmission system whilst releasing the clutch in reverse and you haven't complained officially to Fiat or Peugeot please do so.

Also there is an information sheet available for sufferers to read and which spells out how to ensure Fiat have recorded your concerns and offers a few suggestions about how to go about making Fiat find asolution for the destructive juddering in the transmission.

Just email me for a copy - andystothert@blueyonder.co.uk

As most of you will know Fiat are still denying a fault exists whilst Peugeot have admitted that it does, and will be taking steps to rectify the Peugeot Boxers by early next year.

Quite how two identical gearboxes in (almost) identical vans coming off the same production line can be different is beyond everybody except Fiat.

If you have a Peugeot Boxer X250 contact customer care and ask that your vehicle is given both the ECU re-map and the new lower ratio reverse gear. They won't come looking for you if you haven't got an official complaint in progress.

If you buy a new Ducato or Boxer based motorhome before September or October NEXT YEAR there is a good chance that it will have this destructive juddering in the transmission.

Ours goes in for its third gearbox on Tuesday.

[fred grant]

we'll all keep our fingers crossed for you andrew darling. if the operations successful fred is goin to celebrate with sum good old cornish cider, harvestin or no harvestin he says.

 

alice

[AndyStothert]

Most of you are probably aware that I'm attempting to keep this matter in motorhomers minds by way of a thread on both this and the motorhomefacts forum.

It is strange how different the two forums tend to run, but what we did know all along is that the motorhome manufacturers have been watching the other one more closely, and that we had a harder time getting universal support there than here.

However when the facts became apparent (that the defect is a universal one) the other forum has become just as supportive as this.

Whether it is the threat of more radical action, or a genuine desire to try to sort this out, I can't judge, but Swift have told me that they will be having another and very earnest conversation with Fiat next week in a bid to resolve this fiasco.

Whether Peugeot's welcome admission of the design defect and their desire to resolve things is a factor we know not, but is should be as it tells us that all the motorhome manufacturers are building on a vehicle which has a recognised defect.

A very scary place to be in legal terms, and the dealers should now be even more aware of this issue as it is them who are the ones ultimately responsible.

[avongas]

hi guys,

 

I've been reading this thread with interest. just bought (picking it up 12th. September) second hand 2006 Fiat Swift Lifestyle 530lp with 2.0 litre engine, from Highbridge caravans. Is the 'judder' or water ingress likely to cause me concern?

 

Admittedly, didn't reverse uphill during test drive, but having come acrosss this thread, i'd like to know of any problems I may encounter before I part with the balance of the money.

 

Thanks for ny replies.

[Guest Tracker]

It seems that the judder and water issues only affect the newest incarnation of the Ducato/ Boxer also known as X250 and distinguished from it's predecessor by the upturned headlamps extending almost up to the windscreen together with repeater indicators in the door mirrors.

 

Sitting beside and older model the differences are very clear, which they probably will be at the dealer's lot.

 

If you have bought one of they new bu##ers, be sure to give it a darned good test drive before you part with any more cash!

 

If, as I suspect being a 2.0 hdi of 2006 vintage, it's one of the previous models then there really are not too many issues to worry about as it was a well sorted van before being replaced by the new and mostly improved version and as long as it drives OK and the driving position suits you it should serve you well.

 

 

[avongas]

Thanks Rich,

 

That has put my mind at rest. Roll on the 12th.!!

[emmbeedee]

Having just retired, we are considering a new motorhome & whilst researching the options came across this problem, (or "characteristic" if you believe Fiat).

We have never owned a motorhome before, although we did borrow a VW (1966 vintage) many years ago & quite enjoyed it.

TBH I had heard something about the reversing problem on Fiat Ducatos (vans, not MH's), even before we started looking at motorhomes, but have been amazed at the extent of the problem (as reported in MMM & on here) & Fiat's reaction to it. We obviously decided that whatever we bought would NOT be based on a Sevel chassis.

We visited the Malvern show & on every stand we visited we explained that we didn't want a Fiat/Peugeot based vehicle & the reasons why. Almost without exception, the salesmen said that it wasn't such a big problem & that we shouldn't worry about it as only a very tiny proportion of the vehicles were affected, if any. I didn't buy this line, but the problem we are having is that the vast majority of MH's seem to be built on the Sevel chassis & the layout we prefer seems to be very rare on anything else that we can afford. Salesmen state that we are excluding about 70% of the supply & that does seem to be true. Nevertheless, we have continued our search & have since visited many dealerships.

The worst reaction was at Brownhills Newark, where the salesman was very forceful in his denial of the problem, said it was caused by people who didn't know how to drive & that they had had no complaints. He did admit, however, that they had had people trying to cancel after leaving a deposit & subsequently discovering the problem. (They have refused to refund deposits in this situation). He also suggested that we should visit their service depot to check on this, & speak to their mechanics. We did so & were surprised to be informed by the young lady who seemed to be in charge of the service reception that it wouldn't be worth speaking to any of them as they had a complete change of staff recently & were thus all new & wouldn't know anything about it! Strange. She did say, however, that they HAD had complaints from a few owners. One in particular, Brownhills themselves thought was a problem & called in Fiat. Fiat's reaction? Not a problem.

We have now discovered a MH that we think would suit us & it is a Fiat, but based on the previous Ducato chassis. It is an Adria Coral S 680 SL, 57 reg & apparently ex-demo. It has a 2.3 JTD engine (110 HP) with the 5 speed gearbox. I haven't had a test drive yet, but am I correct in thinking that this vehicle should not be affected by the problem? As far as I can see, it is only the new version that suffers.

Finally, thanks for a very informative forum, we evidently have a lot more to learn yet! (!)