Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder

[Elliot]

At the end of the day it will all depend how Fiat deals with the units in the supply chain? They know how many are out there. The big question for them is will they recall all the units or just ignore them and hope it is not a 100% failure. This is the big money question. The other point is how long will the damage to the point of sales market carry on? Will all resale units carry a health warning? Because after this episode I would imagine the requirement for them will be fairly low. Mr Fiat has a lot of decisions to make

[Guest Tracker]

I can't imagine Fiat, or any UK based motor home dealer for that matter, being too worried about future residual values?

 

They will just shrug their shoulders, offer a crap trade in price, and say that it is all down to supply and demand without specifying a reason - which of course will not be untrue - just economical with the truth.

 

Equally I can't imagine Fiat will willingly rebuild or replace any gearboxes they don't have to.

 

I don't know whether the converters or the selling dealers have any influence over Fiat to bring pressure to have all of their current and future stocks of unmodified vans repaired, but I imagine that the sheer logistics make that well nigh improbable and unrealistic?

 

So as ever was, it will probably fall to the proud owner of his/her new/nearly new/used pride and joy to have to suffer the aggravation and insult of having to discuss/argue with their local Fiat dealer/commercial dealer about the need or not for a new reverse gear, gearbox, clutch assembly and/or ecu update.

 

Hardly makes one want to buy one does it!

 

On the other hand if you feel like a gamble now could be an excellent time to buy a new or nearly new Fiat based van - if the price is right!

[Elliot]

Just a thought !!!! I wonder if Mr Fiats Ferrari goes uphill backwards or are they affected as well

[colin]

I note that a few people have complained about judder in first as well as reverse, so I'm guessing there is more than a change to reverse gear to be done.

I'm also wondering how the van gets pan european type approval, vis a vis the reversing rule for Italy, are they submitted for type approval in country of manufacture then having variation to meet UK regs, or are they submitted straight away for a pan european type approval?

[Rayjsj]

It's amazing how many 'nearly new' low mileage X250 based M/homes,panel van conversions there are on dealers forecourts at the moment, am i suprised ? of course not, would I buy one ? NOT on your life. certainly not yet.... Probably never.

Is Alistair Darling really private Frazier from Dad's Army in disguise????. Weeeere Dooomed Laddie,all Doooomed !!! it'll be his fault that anything bought with a Euro is dearer today. :D :D

[Colin9591]

Question for Andy.

 

Hi Andy,

As noted on another thread, I'm planning a custom build on a new 3.0 semi-automatic Ducato LWB. Several people have suggested that this 3.0/semi-auto combination is not afflicted by the dreadful judder issue.

 

Can you help me by confirming that it is the case and that the 3.0/semi-auto combination doesn't suffer from this problem please.

 

Many thanks for your help.

 

Best Regards

 

Colin

[RoyH]

Hi Colin9591,

 

See a post from Andy about the middle of the last page date 29th August. He has gone away for a fortnight, so if you don't hear from him that's why. He would not ignore you.

[Colin9591]

RoyH - 2008-09-03 8:46 PM

 

Hi Colin9591,

 

See a post from Andy about the middle of the last page date 29th August. He has gone away for a fortnight, so if you don't hear from him that's why. He would not ignore you.

 

Thanks for your help. We're not in a great hurry so am happy to await Andy's return.

 

Best Regards

 

ColinS

[trigrem]

Whilst I realise that the juddergate problem has been associated with Fiat, Peugeot must have had the same problem.

An interesting quote in the September edition of the Caravan club magazine . from Peugeot as follows.

"We will shortly be releasing a software download which improves the torque at low revs, but a new lower reverse gear is also being developed. Both options will be available as a retro- fit to current customers vehicles. New vehicles coming out of the factory, will however be built with a lower reverse gear as standard"

No mention was made regarding who pays for the retrofit.

Perhaps Fiat should talk to Peugeot who seem to have taken seriously a problem which Fiat claimed, at the start, did not exist,

[Porky]

Hi Colin. We have ordered a left hand drive Autotrail Tracker EKS with the 3.0 LHD automatic for collection on 1st May. On reading all the horrors we contacted our dealers, Chelston Motorhomes (Devon) who advise that this arrangement is not affected. They have offered a test drive in one and a letter confirming that should it occur on our vehicle when it arrives it will be considered a fault and the balance will not be payable until resolved. Can`t say fairer than that!!!!

 

Well fed and happy, Porky

[Colin9591]

Porky - 2008-09-04 10:41 AM

 

Hi Colin. We have ordered a left hand drive Autotrail Tracker EKS with the 3.0 LHD automatic for collection on 1st May. On reading all the horrors we contacted our dealers, Chelston Motorhomes (Devon) who advise that this arrangement is not affected. They have offered a test drive in one and a letter confirming that should it occur on our vehicle when it arrives it will be considered a fault and the balance will not be payable until resolved. Can`t say fairer than that!!!!

 

Well fed and happy, Porky

 

Thanks Porky, that's just the type of reassurance I need. Now, have they fixed the water ingress problem?

 

Regards

 

ColinS

[rupert123]

Colin9591 - 2008-09-04 11:48 AM

 

Porky - 2008-09-04 10:41 AM

 

Hi Colin. We have ordered a left hand drive Autotrail Tracker EKS with the 3.0 LHD automatic for collection on 1st May. On reading all the horrors we contacted our dealers, Chelston Motorhomes (Devon) who advise that this arrangement is not affected. They have offered a test drive in one and a letter confirming that should it occur on our vehicle when it arrives it will be considered a fault and the balance will not be payable until resolved. Can`t say fairer than that!!!!

 

Well fed and happy, Porky

 

Thanks Porky, that's just the type of reassurance I need. Now, have they fixed the water ingress problem?

 

Regards

 

 

 

ColinS

 

I took delivery on 3 April and water ingress have been fixed then.

[Goldcoaster]

Hi Rupert 123,

Re the water ingress fix -

Have you lifted the new engine cover and checked for signs of corrosion around the injectors etc?

The reason I ask is that some of the "Fixed" ones landing here in OZ still have untreated corrosion in that area, and Fiat have just plonked the cover over the damage - in a "cover-up"

Does the top rubber section of the scuttle really cling to the lower edge of the windscreen and provide a water proof connection?

Is the centre join in the scuttle now water tight?

Your comments would be greatly appreciated,

Cheers, Bill

[Rayjsj]

Goldcoaster Bill,

As this thread strongly suggests when looking at a 'Sevel' based M/H or panel Van conversion whether new or nearly new if it's on the 'New' X250 chassis, Make sure that you Test drive THE ACTUAL vehicle (not one similar) that you are buying, and make sure that the test drive involves reversing up a fair sized hill at least a 1 in 4 or 5. (25% in new 'money') . If it tries to shake itself to bits trying, don't buy it !! otherwise you could be in for some very expensive heartaches. The only one seemingly not affected is the so called 'Comfort-a-matic' automatic with a 3 litre engine,although some with smaller 100ps engines And 5-speed gearboxes say they don't have the problem either ? the onus is on the Buyer (beware) to Test before parting with their cash. Sorry if this is telling granny how to suck eggs,but people ARE still buying AND are still suprised/angry/frustrated when this fault arises. :D :D

[Hymer C 9.]

pkc - 2008-08-28 9:02 AM

 

A matter of a pinion

I wandered Lakeland in high gear But all t’was not so well I fear,

to climb from sleepy forest glade, I selected pinion retrograde.

When all at once o’er vale and hills, came sounds of future garage bills.

Came a juddering, it’s source I feel, that poxy dual mass clutch flywheel.

With gnashing teeth,(the vans and mine) I hurried to the phone help line.

Complaint explained, the knave retorts, no such issue, come eat my shorts!

Increase the revs! Be more realistic, it's just a vehicle characteristic.

With girded loins, my courage plucked, “Nay Sir” said I “Yon box is

* beyond reasonable repair”

“Be off! How dare you ruin our slumber, here take this vehicle complaint number”

So duly chastened I did go, To await news from brave Andy and Mike Jago.

Now I covet blue ovals from afar, and wish upon three pointed star

All future movement to the fore. To places fond, to return no more.

The sayings true, Alas, alack! there really is no going back.

 

*Sorry, could'nt find a word that scanned.

Thanks to Andy Stothert for all his hard work.

 

PKC. that has to be one of best posts I have read in a while. (pointed out to me by my OH) I have to admit. Carol.

[Goldcoaster]

Hello Ravisi,

Thanks for the reply regarding the Judder of which I am pretty well up to date.

What I was looking for was a report from someone who has had a proper Fiat authorised - or ex Factory - fix of the water ingress problem.

Not just the PATCH UP done on the earlier recalls.

I have seen brand NEW Fiats here, that appear to have had an engine cover fitted over an already corroded engine!

Just wondering if the factory was making sure that the engines had not been subject to water damage prior to fitting engine covers.

Regards, Bill

[Jeffus]

Hi everyone and Andy,

 

Sorry I've been so long updating but I have only just managed to get a connection.

 

Ok so as promised . . . I have just picked up our new Bessacarr E795 with the 160 multijet engine. Arriving at Marquis August 27th for a test drive. First thing I asked was find me a hill I can reverse up. Not knowing the area (Winchester) I let the hand over guy drive. Eventually we found one that was quite and allowed me to do my test reversing. I would love to tell you that the bloney van nearly shook itself to bits . . . but it didn't in fact just the opposite. I've got to admit I found it very hard to find this judder, after a few attempts I managed something that could be felt very slightly but I would describe it as a slight tingling. Certainly not a judder, no where near and I can certainly live with it. I must also add I had to really keep the revs down to induce it. If I reversed normally I couldn't feel anything, it just reversed up the hill easily. I drove the vehicle back to Marquis (about 10 miles) and was really surprised at the ease in which it climbed hills. It has about 130 miles on the clock but pulled like a train. Gawd know what it will do when it's run in. Very impressed.

 

So with my mind put mildly to rest I checked round the rest of the van and looked forward to Monday 1st Sept to collect her. At this point I have to commend Marquis at Lower Upham who have been quite brilliant. Nothing was too much trouble and we were made to feel very welcome even to the point we stayed over night a couple of nights in their compound as we wanted to move all our gear from the old to the new van (which we did last Sunday/Monday). We fulltime so we have nowhere to sleep except in our 4 wheeled home. Thank you Steve Barnes (sales), Paul (Service manager) and Tony (handover).

 

There was a few teething problems I won't bore you with them the main being having to order a new base plate for my Caro sat dish (not in stock) so 2 to 3 weeks and has to come from Germany (didn't know Oyster was German). There was a few more niggley probs but Paul soon had them fixed. Handover went smoothly and I'm a very happy man (wife likes it too, the van that is).

 

One other problem and I mention it 'cause Swift were NOT at all helpful last Friday. The two running lights over the Luton won't work (still don't) and Paul was trying to get Swift to fax the wiring diagram down to him. Swift's reply "sorry mate we close midday on Fridays". So I have to make a return journey when Swift deem it OK to forward the diagram.

 

I have driven the new van a little over the last week and everytime I drive it I get a bit more excited with it. The clutch is so light you find yourself stalling it and the gear shift is truly like a hot knife though butter. I have deliberately reversed it when unnecessary but still I have found no real judder. I'll let you know how it goes after a few more weeks.

 

Re the water ingress problem. As you know over the last week it has just bucketed down and today Sat 6th it's still peeing it down as I am writing this. In between the down pours I have been out to check under the bonnet and I can report it is snuff dry under there. There's a bit of water round where the air intake is, but that's all.

 

All the best guys,

 

Jeffus.

[rupert123]

Goldcoaster - 2008-09-05 1:26 AM

 

Hi Rupert 123,

Re the water ingress fix -

Have you lifted the new engine cover and checked for signs of corrosion around the injectors etc?

The reason I ask is that some of the "Fixed" ones landing here in OZ still have untreated corrosion in that area, and Fiat have just plonked the cover over the damage - in a "cover-up"

Does the top rubber section of the scuttle really cling to the lower edge of the windscreen and provide a water proof connection?

Is the centre join in the scuttle now water tight?

Your comments would be greatly appreciated,

Cheers, Bill

 

William,

 

I must admit I have not looked in depth at the fix but I can say with certainty that I have never had any water in the engine bay in nearly 7000 miles since April, and we have had a very wet summer even by UK standards. My van is currently with the dealers having a sat. dish fitted but will take a look at the areas you mention when i get it back. However if no water I would have to say the fix, whatever it is works.

[Rayjsj]

Jeff,

So glad that your new van isn't plagued with the Judder, It somehow makes it even more scary that not ALL are effected ?? If what they say is correct, that a change to the ECU and a different reverse ratio fixes it.

WHY aren't all effected ? you would think that less 'loaded' chassis would Judder less, but that doesn't seem to be the case (Andy's the case in point). So it's got to be EVERY vehicle on it's merits, IE a lengthy Road test and a reverse up a steep hill on EVERY vehicle purchased. Any seller who refuses probably have something to hide. :D :D

[Goldcoaster]

Hello rupert 123,

Thanks for your reply and the good news contained therein.

The fact that your engine compartment has stayed dry for so long is very encouraging.

I owned a 09/2007 3 litre manual which suffered from water ingress which I had repaired professionally at my expense, after the unsatisfactory Fiat recall fix.

Reverse judder was ever so slight, but not feeling comfortable with the overall picture, I sold he rig.

I am now contemplating ordering another X250 based conversion with the (MTA)Comformatic transmission.

Having torn up $xxxx's on the sale of the previous Motorhome, prior to commiting to another, I want to be sure that most of the problems have been sorted out.

I believe that some of the new Fiats in transit to Australia sit on the wharf in Singapore for weeks on end, and as a result, if the waterproofing is not good the engines get drowned.

You could probably throw in a bit of salt laden spray for good measure.

Thanks for your help,

Regards, Bill

[AndyStothert]

We've just returned from a very rain sodden Cornwall and a chance to examine our van's underbonnet waterproofing - the rain runs under the engine cover so the thing is really there only to stop you seeing the water. That said the injectors have been smothered in silicone, the wiper motor, and ECU etc have covers, and when you're batting along a motorway at 60 mph in heavy rain there is probably more water being sprayed and sucked up into the engine compartment than anything which comes from above in a downpour.

Re the post about the 3 litre autos it seems that they aren't affected by the juddering - Peter Vaughan (of Which Motorcaravan mag) reckons he reversed one up a steep hill in the Peak District and it was as smooth as any vehicle should be.

But that was only one and time will tell.

Of the others (the manual ones) the fact that Fiat and Peugeot are to start fitting a lower ratio reverse gear in the production models from January 09 (it is presently being tested in Italy) says that every single 6 speed Fiat or Peugeot with 2.2, 2.3 litre or 3 litre engine has this potentially damaging defect. And all new motorhomes until about next August will be thus afflicted.

Information apparently leaking out of Fiat (by disgruntled motorhome owning employees) shows that a 6 speed 3.5 ton 2.3 litre engine chassis loaded to its permitted weight cannot reverse up a hill steeper than 1 in 6 without risking clutch or gearbox damage.

Whilst we now know that Fiat are developing a fix for the Peugeot owners and that Italian Fiat owners are being offered (quietly) the lower ratio reverse gear in January there has been no hint whatsoever that owners in the UK will get their vans fixed.

Until we get a written undertaking from Fiat that they will sort these vans out, as they are still coming off the production line in a defective state to buy or order one would be very unwise.

Once we have a written undertaking from Fiat that they will fix them our investments should be secure, but Fiat don't appear to want to give one.

So keep telling everyone to steer clear of these lovely to drive but basically flawed vehicles.

 

And if you've got one, and haven't reversed it up a steep hill then do so soon - and make an official complaint to Fiat about the design defect which makes them judder.

[colin]

Soon drops to the bottom.

I'm still not convinced that a simple change of gearing is a long term solution, but then I'm not noted for looking on the bright side. If the gears can be fitted inside the present gearbox why has it taken so long to come up with solution? and of cause it will not help the few that have complained of judder in first gear!

[AndyStothert]

 

If only we could get Fiat to say they WILL change the reverse gear on the vehicles affected, at least it would be a start.

They are going to do it very quietly in other countries in Europe, but so far there has been no indication that Fiat UK will be doing the same.

Incidentally I'm still getting an average of one more unhappy owner a day contacting me to ask for advice about what to do - Fiat are still pumping these things out of the factory with the same defect, and folk are still buying them.

The lower ratio reverse gear (so a bigger cog) which Fiat (and Peugeot) are going to fit to Peugeots and in Fiat in other countries, isn't ideal as it is still only just within what is acceptable, but those in Italy who have it fitted and are road testing it say that it is probably going to be OK in most circumstances on vehicle weighing less than 3500kg.

The bigger ones are as yet untested by Fiat according to the Italian motorhome owners who work at Sevel, as most motorhomes there are less than 3500kg.

It may be that the UK market has been thrown to the wolves because we have a lot of heavier vehicles 'out there'.

It is getting time for us all to contact Watchdog I think.

 

[Tomo3090]

Perhaps if the various publications, commercial and motorhomes, just wrote in their road tests that "Until the gearbox problem is fixed whatever you do don't buy this vehicle!" and didn't even mention anything else about it, then the converters, dealers and companies involved in producing vehicles with a defect might sit up and notice.

 

I say this as someone who's van doesn't judder, so far, but has sympathy with those that do.

 

You are fighting a multinational company with a advertising budget of millions, threads on "lifestyle relevant" websites arn't enough to either bring this problem to wider audience or to make those companies involved be inclined to do anythng about them.

 

Perhaps a few reviews written like that might attract the likes of Top Gear, 5th Gear and consumer protection programmes

 

 

[Tomo3090]

Oh look! The thread about the juddering is juddering! How spooky is that.