Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder

[Clive]

Or this?

[libby]

Has anyone ever met our Fred?

[PSHORT]

I am confused on both main faults on the Ducato, can someone

enlighten me.

1) I had the shuttle recall item fixed, but it was a waste of time. I have since

done it myself with the black gooey stuff and Duck Tape. Is there now a better

fix being done by Fiat? ie a new better fitting shuttle or is it still trying just to glue the two bits together with the minimal overlap for connection. If a new and better fix is available are Fiat contacting us?

2) I have complained re the judder, had the van tested by Fiat with the usual

replies we have all had. Do we now just wait or should we contact Fiat 'so-called Customer Service' Incidently I did ask a local commercial Fiat garage twice for a definitive yes or no can the auto box be retro fitted to the 3litre. Never got a reply, was this Fiat I wonder or the garage.

My thanks also with the others for Andy's outstanding efforts in this very sorry saga

 

[colin]

PSHORT - 2008-09-30 9:41 AM

 

I am confused on both main faults on the Ducato, can someone

enlighten me.

1) I had the shuttle recall item fixed, but it was a waste of time. I have since

done it myself with the black gooey stuff and Duck Tape. Is there now a better

fix being done by Fiat? ie a new better fitting shuttle or is it still trying just to glue the two bits together with the minimal overlap for connection. If a new and better fix is available are Fiat contacting us?

2) I have complained re the judder, had the van tested by Fiat with the usual

replies we have all had. Do we now just wait or should we contact Fiat 'so-called Customer Service' Incidently I did ask a local commercial Fiat garage twice for a definitive yes or no can the auto box be retro fitted to the 3litre. Never got a reply, was this Fiat I wonder or the garage.

My thanks also with the others for Andy's outstanding efforts in this very sorry saga

It seems that the temp scuttle fix is still just that, some 'new' vans still have same problem, but this could be old stock, who knows? (fiat possibly)

As for gearbox, what reply have you had, some seem to be told it is normal, some have been told theirs is unsualy bad. In view of Fiats actions so far I dought they will be offering a new gearbox unless you kick up a fuss, and this appears to be where it's not getting anywhere, there appears to be a lot of owners who are sitting back and seeing what happens.

[AndyStothert]

Clive is a cleverer man than me with this infernal computer, but I think I need a copy of that post he concocted.

 

Today's Fiat news is that two fresh 'Judderers' who have complained to Fiat within the last few days have been treated in a much more agreeable manner by the CustomerCare team.

Instead of the 'get lost there's nowt wrong with it - rev it bit harder' line they are now getting a 'yes we aware of this issue and are seeking a resolution for it'. One even got an apology from the team.

At least it doesn't leave you feeling frustrated and angry, but nobody has heard the words 'Yes, we will fix it' yet.

And it is probably worth Paul holding on for a while to see if the 'new' manual gearbox will reverse a trailer. There are some doubts being expressed by Fiat employees that the new lower reverse gear will be low enough for the very biggest of Ducato motorhomes, but as the only tests have been on 3.5 ton versions this is still an open question. So whether it will be low enough for reversing a loaded trailer nobody seems sure.

[rupert123]

PSHORT - 2008-09-30 9:41 AM

 

I am confused on both main faults on the Ducato, can someone

enlighten me.

1) I had the shuttle recall item fixed, but it was a waste of time. I have since

done it myself with the black gooey stuff and Duck Tape. Is there now a better

fix being done by Fiat? ie a new better fitting shuttle or is it still trying just to glue the two bits together with the minimal overlap for connection. If a new and better fix is available are Fiat contacting us?

2) I have complained re the judder, had the van tested by Fiat with the usual

replies we have all had. Do we now just wait or should we contact Fiat 'so-called Customer Service' Incidently I did ask a local commercial Fiat garage twice for a definitive yes or no can the auto box be retro fitted to the 3litre. Never got a reply, was this Fiat I wonder or the garage.

My thanks also with the others for Andy's outstanding efforts in this very sorry saga

 

The leak has certainly been fixed. My van was delivered in April and does not leak, their is no sign of a 'bodged up job' so guess they have altered something in the design. I am fortunate in not having a vibration in reverse but would think, as Andy has said, you need to keep the pressure on as an individual.

[emmbeedee]

I got boxed in yesterday by a very large Citroen Relay (white van man). When the driver returned, apologising, I asked about judder in reverse. Oh, yes, does it all the time, especially if you have to reverse up a driveway. This was an 08 reg., he said there other one, an 07, was the first one into this country & juddered just the same or even more. He didn't consider it a major problem, just slip the clutch, he said.

Generally, he loved the van, said he would buy one himself & the older one has now done over 90,000 miles with no major problems or replacements. 5 recalls on it though.

[AndyStothert]

Y'r white van man obviously doesn't use it well loaded or up properly steep hills, as ours has done just over 17,000 miles and is awaiting a 3rd replacement box plus it has also had a new clutch.

Do I need to keep repeating this?

And I'm just one of many who have had to have a clutch or box.

And yes, they are all juddering - because the gear ratio is too high, and if you attempted to drive fowards up a 1 in 6 in second gear (as reverse is nearer second than first) the effect will be broadly similar.

Henry's doesn't judder (as much, or as readily) because the 100 models have a lower final drive ratio than the 120, 130 and 160 models.

In fact Fiat and Peugeot are hoping to get away with just an ECU remap for the few folk who have reported juddering in their 100 based motorhomes.

If you have a juddering 100 and the re-map doesn't cure it then keep complaining.

 

 

[Andy T]

And as a 100 five speed owner I wait with interest to see what effect the remap might have on fuel consumption.

Andy.

[Rayjsj]

Now (thanks to Andy S.) that we know exactly what the problem is, What were Fiat thinking about (not vehicle design certainly) putting such an unsuitable gearbox/ratio's into what is after all a Commercial Vehicle ?

used for hauling heavy loads AND reversing them....sometimes uphill.

I used to drive Brewery Drays(lorries, not horses) Commer two stroke diesels, even back then in the 60's it could push a full load of Benskins Best, Backwards up a steep Pub carpark to the Cellar Flaps.

When Vehicle design ceases to be an advance on what went before,

those vehicles are destined for the scrapheap.

Oh, and bring back DIY running repairs/servicing too. Too many people are driving around not knowing a thing about what is going on 'Underneath'.

Hope this (long) story has a happy ending, but knowing Fiat.... :D :D

[Basil]

A bit off topic, but, I wouldn't like to be the new purchaser of the Silver X250 based Autocruise Rhythm on a 58 plate but with dealer trade plates in the windows that passed me on the A12 in Essex between Chelmsford and Witham at speeds in excess of 90mph yesterday. The driver cut across from the outside lane to turn off up the slip road and crunched the gears at least twice, made me think of this thread!!

 

They obviously go well, but I certainly would not want one that has been treated like that by whoever was driving it.

Bas

[pkc]

Great post Clive.

[fred grant]

jumper my *ss!

 

f

[Rayjsj]

emmbeedee - 2008-10-01 12:38 AM

 

I asked about judder in reverse. Oh, yes, does it all the time, especially if you have to reverse up a driveway. This was an 08 reg., he said there other one, an 07, was the first one into this country & juddered just the same or even more. He didn't consider it a major problem, just slip the clutch, he said.

 

 

 

 

 

He obviously didn't have to pay for the replacement Clutch and possibly the DMF when he eventually burnt it out (probably, not very long away).

If his boss is unlucky JUST out of warranty. We, however have to pay for our repairs, and Clutch's are not usually covered by warranty. This fault DOES need fixing by the Manufacturer and SOON. It's still 'Buyer Beware' out there.

Especially at 'Showtime'. when the 'bargains' flow.

:D :D

[Jeffus]

steamer - 2008-09-18 7:42 AM

 

anyway - spare wheels , i not got one - can they be sourced along with chassis bits & retrofitted easily , i personally don't like the compressor gizmo ( perhaps old fashioned ! ) , have looked under my van & there seems to be plenty of room & holes for attacmments .

 

Steamer

 

Hi Steamer and everyone,

 

Just picked up our new Bessacarr E795. I asked for a spare alloy wheel to be fitted before handover. Slung underneath rear of van, very easily retro fitted. Be careful everyone, FIAT'S price . . . . . £875 fitted. So far Swift (God bless 'em) have sent SEVEN to Marquis and all wrong design (you can't write it) at a cost of £2000. Marquis have fitted a steel to keep me going. I had to bite the bullet as we spend a lot of the year in Europe and the thought of no spare and a blow out . . . . doesn't bear thinking about.

 

Jeffus.

[Derek Uzzell]

I believe the Bessacarr E795 has an Al-Ko chassis.

 

If your X250 coachbuilt motorhome has an 'original' Fiat chassis, it may prove more challenging to retro-fit a spare wheel. And, if the motorhome converter has chosen to exploit the freed-up space that's normally occupied by the spare wheel, retro-fitting may well be impossible.

[Jeffus]

Hi Derek,

 

Yep the E795 has an alko chassis but our "old E794 54 plate" had as well. It came with a spare slung underneath and the new E795 has space to put one as well.

 

Jeffus.

[AndyStothert]

I am no longer actively seeking the details of fresh juddereers as we all now know the point is proved and what is wrong with the new Ducatos and Boxers.

BUT they just keep on appearing in my inbox. There must be hundreds of them now, and today I got an email from the very disgruntled owner of a brand new Auto Trail Scout with 3 litre 160 Fiat chassis whose clutch has failed.

And another from a similarly angry owner of an Auto Trail Tracker with 2.3 litre Fiat chassis which is juddering for Grimsby.

Both new, and now we find that Auto Trail have severed their links with Mercedes for a Fiat-only conversion policy.

It can't be a quality decision, You wonder why don't you? Or do you.

[Rainbow-Chasers]

I think that in order to get this recognised, you the owners, are going to have to get together as a unit of x hundred people, and take Fiat to court. It will be a ground breaking thing, but the only way you will be heard!

 

Try and get some media coverage too, i expect mmm could furnish some wise advice on that front.

 

As far as i can see it, it is the only way forward! This happened on the 206 when owners were clocking up thousands of miles by opening a door, they were initially told 'prove it', well it was after they all got together with a legal case that it was finally admitted and sorted out.

[AndyStothert]

If push comes to shove, and the new gearbox isn't fitted to our vans some time soon after January (when it is rumoured production will start) then legal action may be the only solution. But at the moment it isn't worth the posibel hassle and expense until we see for sure whether Fiat are determined to abandon their customers when they have the means to rectify the problem - which at the moment they haven't. And until then they will swear white is yellow (lies etc) as they are still manufacturing this vehicle with the same serious fault.

But until they actually give a written undertaking to stand by us existing owners I think we have to keep reminding them that we are still here and still not happy.

If you have a spare moment or two the other forum (motorhomefacts) is worth a look as there are still some eejits on there who can't admit they have bought a duffer.

Quite funny some of it, but not intentionally, and not of the Fred sort.

[mike 202]

As you say Andy, Fiat have promised ( well as close as you can get) to fix by Jan 09. Are they buying time to get everyone off of their backs. I have spoken to some owners of very new vans with only a few hundred miles on the clock and they are happy, to spread the word of " No judders" so helping Fiat.

What REALLY ANNOYS me are the UK manufacturers and dealers who rely on us buying to keep their families and pay their mortgages. SURELY they should have some loyalty to us as their customers, but NO just keep quiet and rip of any poor sod who does not know about the judder problem.

I feel that Fiat etc should be made aware that the T-shirt campaign goes ahead from February 09, if no action from them is taken and that all thay have done is delay the inevitable bad publicity. Dealers amd manufacturers UK if you monitor this forum then I believe you are living on borrowed time ( UK car sales down 25%) so dont squinney if in the near future you hit hard times.

[Melvin]

Spoke to Fiat customer care yesterday, Justin actually phoned me back ?, apparently next week, all us people with reported problem will be recieving a letter ? funny that, is the a caravan show at birmingham next week.

[Archiesgrandad]

I can't help wondering why the "Sale of Goods Act" doesn't apply in this case.

 

Why not go to your supplying dealer and say that the motorhome is not of merchantable quality, and does not perform as it might reasonably be expected to? Under the terms of the Sale of Goods Act it is the supplying dealer who has that responsibility. He sold it to you, he probably told you it was fantastic, and he almost certainly did not tell you that you may not be able to go backwards, it's his problem. What he does to his suppliers is not your problem.

The dealers must have been aware of the problem soon after the first vans were sold, and there can be no room for doubt that they have been aware for some months, so if you bought a van recently you could probably claim that they had misled you, or at least failed to tell you something rather important. After all it is possible to buy a motorhome without being a member of any club , or subscribing to any magazine, and people probably do.

 

One last thought, please don't say it,s not the dealer's fault. It is, because they made the contract with you, and the prospect of all the main dealers and converters in the UK going bust is probably not in Fiats Business Plan, so they are probably the group that can get Fiat to put things right. Give them a really hard time, and don't be nice to them.

 

AGD

[Melvin]

:-(

I contact trading standards in May 2008, a couple of weeks after purchasing, however, because the value is over £5,000.00. Trading Standard could only give me support and their backing, they have advised me to contact a solicitor.

 

This new motorhome was actually on the dealer forecourt, not an order by myself. I have asked for my money back or a new vehicle I was told NO, and both Fiat and Autorail would support them in a court action. Since complaining the service from the dealer has been very poor.

 

I have until the middle of November to reject the goods within the 6 month period, if I cannot get a statisfactory solution from Fiat next week, I will reject the goods and name the dealer.

[Jeffus]

Hi guys and gals,

 

Just been talking to Fiat customer services registering my Ducato X250 for the reverse judder problem (more power to the people). I now have my reference number. A thing came to light maybe not all realise (including me). She was asking for my vehicle details and quoted the manufacturing date which was late 2007 (that's when it arrived at Swift, I think). I said no, no, no, it's a new vehicle, September 2008. Ah! she said you will have to write to Fiat's warranty with a photocopy of your log book details and ask them to update their records for your warranty to start then. At the moment you have just lost 12 months warranty. Be warned people. BTW the lady on customer service was very nice and helpful explaining any queries I had and sounded genuinely sympathetic with the problem we all have.

 

Jeffus.