kontiki Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 Will never happen though, they get so much of their income from them so they aren't likely to be as critical as they maybe should be. Also a statement as strong as you suggest might leave them open for libel or slander. I wish they would come out & admit there is a problem, as somebody who wants to buy a new van it's making me hesitate. I have the cash waiting but I can't decide what to do, should I only look at vans on other chassis but this really limits my selection. Do I look at older vans based on the 2.8 JTD (I was more than happy with my previous one) One thing I don't see that I should take the risk however small with a van that might have a problem, maybe if I had some written warranty from the dealer that would cover me in the event of there being a problem. Again this could be difficult unless the gearbox fails then it would be a matter of opinion as to how serious the judder is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike 202 Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 Don't buy on a Fiat 250 is the advice given on this forum. The more potential purchasers that wait, will leave suppliers gasping for sales. When they, the dealers and manufacturers, are hit in their pockets then just watch them go into action. It will be interesting to see how many convertors change to Ford, Merc etc for the 2009 model year. I got shot of my Fiat based van for a Ford based van and could not be happier. I still have sympathies for the likes of Andy, and would be willing to contribute to an event that brings the problem to the Public at large. Recently I have still seen un-informed customers listening to salesmen waxing lyrical about the (large no of unsold) Fiat based vans on their forecourt. Its buyer beware and if you buy any van, large or small then all you are doing is helping Fiat etc. A lot of guys have put a large amount of their time into this problem, but in the end its your money and your choice. Good luck with whatever you decide Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted September 11, 2008 Author Share Posted September 11, 2008 I received an email today from a Hymer owner who has just had to have the clutch replaced (mileage 14,000) after attempting to judder his way backwards up a steep hill. He duly coughed up the price when asked to do so by the Fiat dealer, as clutches aren't covered by the warranty in most circumstances, but nobody at Fiat mentioned that it may be their fault and not the owners. But (as expected) the new clutch didn't fix the juddering so he started making enquiries and found the forums - shock horror really was his reaction. I've told him to demand his money back for the cluch replacement, and we'll see how it goes. He can show them the forum, and I'll give him the case number of hundreds of unhappy owners to support his case. I'm no fan of the internet, or of the computer, but without it Fiat would be well and truly taking the mickey (and the money) out of folk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted September 11, 2008 Share Posted September 11, 2008 Sounds like Fiat are not a company to deal with even if they do fix problem, I think this will run and run for several years, the vans now which have a 'slight vibration' will be the next ones to fail, then it will be the turn of those which show no apparent fault, don't believe me? well there's been a lot of very unhappy disco and mondeo owners who had no indication that their DMF/clutch assembly was going to fail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike88 Posted September 11, 2008 Share Posted September 11, 2008 The amazing thing is that despite this and similar threads on other sites there are people still prepared to buy these faulty vehicles. Indeed there is even a thread from someone on this site who is asking about the merits of fuel consumption of the 2.3 against the 3 litre Fiat. Such a head in the sand approach is mindboggling to my mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elliot Posted September 11, 2008 Share Posted September 11, 2008 At the end of the day not all motorhome buyers use the internet unless it does go national eg. TV, radio or papers they will never know because sure as eggs are eggs the dealers won’t tell them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elliot Posted September 11, 2008 Share Posted September 11, 2008 At the end of the day not all motorhome buyers use the internet unless it does go national eg. TV, radio or papers they will never know because sure as eggs are eggs the dealers won’t tell them Sorry got finger shake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike 202 Posted September 12, 2008 Share Posted September 12, 2008 Elliot I agree with your comments re use of the forums, several people I have spoken to had no idea that there was a problem or that the Forums even exist. I guess it needs expertise to co-ordinate a campain, plus or course a fighting fund. As I have said on this forum before I changed my Fiat based motorhome to a ford one and it cost me £5000, so I am pretty p*ssed off and DO NOT want Fiat and Manufacturers to get away with causing so much stress and heartache. I unfortunately do not have the expertise, however I would be more than willing to contribute to a fighting fund. No idea how much would be needed by say "Dave if he was willing" but £20 from 500 upset owners would give a £10k fund. I hope that someone has the time and knowlege to help. >:-) >:-) Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike 202 Posted September 12, 2008 Share Posted September 12, 2008 Just reading Fiat advert in the September 2008 Camping & Caravanning magazine Pages 2&3 and reads "160 Multijet Power and automatic gearbox with a built-in UP function. Drives well uphill".Maybee the Auto is ok, but further down in the advert is "Multijet engine with a special motorhome gearbox. Excellent and comfortable performance in all conditions, with a full load or uphill". I think Fiat need a new Italian/English translator that tells the truth, because what they are inferring in the second paragraph is that all gearboxes are GOOD with no problems. Fiat lawyers have obviously very carefully crafted the ad, so that thay cannot be taken to court for lies, but let customers read into the add that all is now 'Good to Go'. This merely reinforces my previous post re funding and more action. Just think a small amount now may save thousands in the future. So So Angry Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted September 12, 2008 Share Posted September 12, 2008 As I seem to recall saying before(or did I just mean to post it) this is a way to attack Fiat, maybe Andy would like to contact ASA over the advert(or ask someone without mag conections) as it's no good Fiat claiming we only meant going up a hill forward, if there is a known problem it is making false claims. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted September 12, 2008 Author Share Posted September 12, 2008 Re the Fiat advert one of our unhappy band of owners has already contacted the ASA but the response was that they only concern themselves with the quality of the adverts and not the quality of the product. If Fiat don't follow Peugeot's late but welcome lead in this we are proposing to disrupt proceedings at the NEC show - if that is I can energise enough dissatisfied owners to actually do something positive. The problem seems to be that everyone now thinks Fiat are bound to do what Peugoet have offered to do, but with Fiat having so many more vehicles to fix, and so a much bigger bill to face, I'm not sure they want to 'do the right thing'. If anyone out there feels they have the experience and expertise to sort out a fiasco like this for Gods sake stick your hand up, as my only advantage was/is that I have the contacts in the motorhome press, and a dogged slightly thick and bloodyminded sort of character. Like I said if anyone wants to take over I will give as much assistance as I can with the magazine matters and the huge reservoir of information my bulging brain (and email system) now contains. Meanwhile if anyone wants to wear the latest fashion at the NEC show (a T shirt advertising the 'characteristics of the Fiat Ducato) they will cost about 4 quid each if we can get a hundred volunteers, and I will need to know by the last week in September if anyone is interested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted September 13, 2008 Share Posted September 13, 2008 Hope you get your hundred people Andy because if not it will go a long way to saying this is a 'storm in a tea cup' as far as Fiat are concerned. I have spoken with two people this week who leave me to believe that is exactly what it is. One in my village who has a year old Adria with a 130 Fiat engine. He had just returned from a two month Euro trip so was talking to him about this and mentioned the reverse problem. To my surprise he had never heard of it and had never had a problem, although he could not remember if he had ever reversed up a steep hill. He also could not care less, he was happy with the van and it has a three year warrenty so why worry. He also said why would anyone in their right mind expect a heavy loaded van to reverse up a 1 in 4 hill without some vibrations, reckoned his car would have trouble doing this. I also took my van into Spinney Motorhomes for some new bits and while their spoke to salesman I know. Their new registrations were up on last year and as they sell nearly all Fiat based vans it would seem the campaign is having little effect and fears of a collapse in Fiat market is totally unfounded. However the efforts made by you are obviously an irritation to Fiat UK and hopefully something will happen if only to get you 'off their backs'. Not sure if I am going to NEC but if so will buy a T shirt, every little helps, wonder how many others of the people shouting so loud on this forum will do the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike 202 Posted September 13, 2008 Share Posted September 13, 2008 Unfortunately I will be in Spain when the NEC is on, but my wife and I will support the campaign, (financially) by buying two T-shirts and (Morally) by wearing them and spreading the word whenever I can on sites in Spain. As I have said before, although I have swopped my Fiat X/250 for a Ford, I am more than happy to donate funds to any fighting cause that sorts this mess out as I was caught out as well. Good on you Andy Regards Mike (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ham Posted September 14, 2008 Share Posted September 14, 2008 I also have a fiat (Trigano Tribute) bought 2007 the judder is very slight. I just had the first service completed. I pointed out to the garage ( not motor home dealer its is a Iveco commercial dealer) the judder they checked with Fiat but as already stated on this forum there is no likely hood of a fix soon. I will and suggest as many of you that can, contact your local trading standards dept. (Has the goods that have been supplied are not fit for purpose). This may take the trading officers some time to investigate, But at least it is another thorn in the side of Fiat..... Secondly I have emailed BBC Watchdog with the address of this site as they are in the process of building their next series of programs in October. Again suggest as many as possible email the BBC http://www.bbc.co.uk/consumer/tv_and_radio/watchdog/contact_index.shtml this will take you to their site. If the Problem gets air time it will be of great embarrassment to Fiat. You can imagine the Dealers (Not just motor homes it also effects the commercial vans that are sold ) going Nuts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted September 14, 2008 Author Share Posted September 14, 2008 Me thinks Henry (Rupert123) is trying to wind me up again. This storm in a teacup has forced Fiat to spend millions in a very premature redesign of the gearbox with a lower ratio reverse gear. The fact that it there sionlny a slight judder on the flat and that it only gets critical on a steep hill is irrelevant - Fiats own figures reveal that damage can occur on a 1 in 6 hill, and you just never know when this may may present itself. For instance we arrived at a campsite in Croatia a month ago in stunning surroundings but the only way to access the pitches next to the sea was by descending a series of steep ramps which involved going forwards on one, then backwards on the next. There were several motorhomes (none new Fiats or Peugeots) down there, but did we dare risk taking ours down there and risk knackering another gearbox reversing back up? No chance. Another opportunity lost because of Fiat's careless attitude to design. Like I said this defect is a time bomb - it may never affect a certain kind of owner, but he/she will eventually sell it and the next unfortunate owner may have to pick up the bill for the ineptitude of the previous one. Henry owns a 5 speed van, and they aren't really that bad, so he has adopted (or seems to have) adopted a slightly smug attitude to the issue. Does he think Peugoet would be going to the trouble of swapping the reverse gear in the 6 speed models if they didn't have to? I was trying to keep Watchdog out of this for the simple reason that Fiat may agree to quietly fixing a few hundred motorhomes in preference to making it a wider issue. But perhaps it is now time to gety a wider public awareness of it before the new gearbox is introduced in January and we present owners are cast to the wind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted September 14, 2008 Share Posted September 14, 2008 Speaking as a person who mainly buys second-hand vehicles,the idea of yet another generation of Fiat/Sevel Motorhomes carrying the 'Buy with extreme caution' label makes me very angry. The poor sxd's who buy these 'crap' vehicles sometime 'down the line' will be getting a lot of heartache, the people who only get 'a slight judder' then sell on, are just passing the problem on to others, who probably won't have the beneifit of a Fiat warranty. Personally I think they are 'not fit for purpose' from new . And won't be buying one,I hope the 'Used' value drops through the floor. (sorry, Andy) What are the details for these 'T-Shirts ? I want one. :D :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike 202 Posted September 14, 2008 Share Posted September 14, 2008 I note and applaud your original concerns to protect Fiat, UK manufacturers, Dealers and their sales staff. and perhaps the resale value of those owners caught in the Trap. However have:- Fiat listened ----NO---They have ingnored all pleas for help and denied a problem exists. Manufacturers ----NO--- They just keep on turning out vehicles that have defects. Most Dealers and sales staff Truthfull---NO----Lovely vehicle Sir, NO problems with gearbox, the just blatently forget to tell the truth. So, why should we the poor old punter bear the cost, suffer the stress and anxiety caused when our vehicles fail. NO--- The softly, softly, approach has not worked, so stuff the lot of them and go Public, Watchdog and any other campaign like the T-shirts at NEC, Etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted September 15, 2008 Share Posted September 15, 2008 AndyStothert - 2008-09-14 11:34 AM Me thinks Henry (Rupert123) is trying to wind me up again. This storm in a teacup has forced Fiat to spend millions in a very premature redesign of the gearbox with a lower ratio reverse gear. The fact that it there sionlny a slight judder on the flat and that it only gets critical on a steep hill is irrelevant - Fiats own figures reveal that damage can occur on a 1 in 6 hill, and you just never know when this may may present itself. For instance we arrived at a campsite in Croatia a month ago in stunning surroundings but the only way to access the pitches next to the sea was by descending a series of steep ramps which involved going forwards on one, then backwards on the next. There were several motorhomes (none new Fiats or Peugeots) down there, but did we dare risk taking ours down there and risk knackering another gearbox reversing back up? No chance. Another opportunity lost because of Fiat's careless attitude to design. Like I said this defect is a time bomb - it may never affect a certain kind of owner, but he/she will eventually sell it and the next unfortunate owner may have to pick up the bill for the ineptitude of the previous one. Henry owns a 5 speed van, and they aren't really that bad, so he has adopted (or seems to have) adopted a slightly smug attitude to the issue. Does he think Peugoet would be going to the trouble of swapping the reverse gear in the 6 speed models if they didn't have to? I was trying to keep Watchdog out of this for the simple reason that Fiat may agree to quietly fixing a few hundred motorhomes in preference to making it a wider issue. But perhaps it is now time to gety a wider public awareness of it before the new gearbox is introduced in January and we present owners are cast to the wind. Andy either I am not explaining myself very well, likely, or you are not reading my post properly, again. First my 'storm in a tea cup' bit. Fiat must have known for some time what the problem was and what most of us have long suspected, reverse gear is to high. What they will undoubtably do is keep things as quiet as possible and fix it. Ok this will cost a bit but they will probably along with new gearbox fit a couple of new body panels and call it a facelift. Now this will not cost them a great deal, I am speaking in vehicle cost terms now not what you or I would regard as a great deal. The real cost would come if they have to retro fit tens of thousands of new gearboxes but this will not happen because most have still not even heard of the problem, this is what I mean by storm in a teacup. I have said this before but the second hand value of Fiat based vans will not be affected and I know sales of new ones are not being effected. Unless this issue is broadcast loud and clear on the major media outlets then nothing much will happen. To say your campaign is an irritant to them is not meant in any way as a slight but the effect it will have is that I feel Fiat will offer a fix to people who shout loudest to keep things limited. Companies including all the major players in the motorhome business are happily still selling motorhomes and vans as are Fiat so they do not feel their is to much of a problem. The obvious way forward by Fiat would be to initially keep the point at which they start fitting the new box very quiet, they may already be doing it, and declare a facelift model when they are ready. As to feeling smug, yes a bit. I had ordered a 130bhp six speed van, believe I told you this, and because of your campaign changed my order to have the 100bhp five speed specification, this has, so far, performed without fault and I am very happy with it. At present it is at Spinny having a satalite dish and reverse camera fitted, they are also fixing a couple of problems but these are at the habitation end. Hope I get it back soon as my wife and I have been home from Scotland for nearly two weeks now and hope to get another trip in before the ski season. Trying to wind you up, would I, any more than you would try to wind me up. How is the T shirt thing going would be curious as to how many on here are going to support it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catinou Posted September 15, 2008 Share Posted September 15, 2008 Hi Andy - we reported our "slight judder" to Fiat and it was confirmed to them by our local Fiat garage. We were not overly concerned UNTIL: We set off for Italy at the end of August and after travelling via Germany and Austria when we stopped for fuel at the latter part of the journey through the Austrian mountains we could smell a definite "hot clutch" smell which concerned us a bit. A week later we were moving to a site nearer to Pisa and TomTom took us on a route with a very steep and narrow road - not visible until after a bend - and the van refused to go up the hill, spinning tyres and severe juddering - the only course of action was to disconnect the A frame and Smart car (thank goodness we didn't have a trailer to contend with this year!) and reverse them carefully back - it took some doing but we got out. The rest of the holiday was spent being very apprehensive when we saw heavy traffic ahead on an uphill section. As the tunnel was closed on our return we also had to contend with the steep slope to get on the ferry at low tide on Saturday - needless to say we are reporting the "near miss" to Fiat and will let you know what they say. Good luck with your campaign. Please let me know how we can get a couple of your T shirts - we are on the C & C site on Saturday at the latter part of the NEC show...... >:-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted September 15, 2008 Share Posted September 15, 2008 catinou - 2008-09-15 5:32 PM Hi Andy - we reported our "slight judder" to Fiat and it was confirmed to them by our local Fiat garage. We were not overly concerned UNTIL: We set off for Italy at the end of August and after travelling via Germany and Austria when we stopped for fuel at the latter part of the journey through the Austrian mountains we could smell a definite "hot clutch" smell which concerned us a bit. A week later we were moving to a site nearer to Pisa and TomTom took us on a route with a very steep and narrow road - not visible until after a bend - and the van refused to go up the hill, spinning tyres and severe juddering - the only course of action was to disconnect the A frame and Smart car (thank goodness we didn't have a trailer to contend with this year!) and reverse them carefully back - it took some doing but we got out. The rest of the holiday was spent being very apprehensive when we saw heavy traffic ahead on an uphill section. As the tunnel was closed on our return we also had to contend with the steep slope to get on the ferry at low tide on Saturday - needless to say we are reporting the "near miss" to Fiat and will let you know what they say. Good luck with your campaign. Please let me know how we can get a couple of your T shirts - we are on the C & C site on Saturday at the latter part of the NEC show...... >:-) Interesting one this as it would seem to be a differant problem, not associated with the reversing one. Going up steep hills should not cause a hot clutch, unless you were reduced to slipping it. The going up steep hill and van refusing/ wheels spinning sounds like a case of an overloaded van with to much weight on the rear axle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catinou Posted September 15, 2008 Share Posted September 15, 2008 Not at all Rupert - the van was practically empty - as was the Smart car's petrol tank. We always travel with the minimum items on board (it helps save fuel) and our water tanks are never more than 1/2 full. The judder on our van has been assessed and agreed to be on reverse AND 1st gear on take off. I don't know the technical reasons etc. but Adams Morey have reported their findings on our particular van to Fiat. :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted September 15, 2008 Share Posted September 15, 2008 We were at Shepton Mallet this weekend and all of the many dealers we spoke to were either denying there is a problem or very much playing it down by blaming it on the 'way you drive it'. Bloody liars and arrogant conmen - the lot of them! So I drove two of them one 5 speed and one 6 speed and I found that, in my non engineers but many driving years view, reverse gear is so high that you cannot safely reverse with the clutch fully engaged and both vans juddered somewhat when driven backwards ON THE LEVEL, so I saw no point in trying them on a gradient. The judder was not violent but is unacceptable in any brand new vehicle and the high reverse gear is positively dangerous as it limits the drivers control of the vehicle. There was also some shudder on take off in first gear but I was able to almost eliminate that with care - but should I have to? I'm happy to report that I was able to warn about 20 people about the perils of Sevel - some in the presence of a salesman and I managed to talk some out of even considering a new Fiat based van. This did not endear me to some salesmen but it did make them start to discuss it with their potential customers - and one customer was so incensed that the salesman had not advised him of the problem he refused to complete his purchase of a new Autotrail! Good result eh! I WILL NOT BE BUYING ONE! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clive Posted September 15, 2008 Share Posted September 15, 2008 How is progress on "T" shirts Andy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkc Posted September 16, 2008 Share Posted September 16, 2008 Please do not take this as a criticism of Trackers post, but may I add my two pence worth to the ‘shuddergate’ thread. As one who has had a long love/grate relationship with Sevel gearboxes I understand the quite legitimate anger at the manufacture’s cavalier attitude to the problem, I would suggest however that expressing it in the more extreme manner as suggested by some will be counter productive. It’s a well used tactic in big business, politics, and the press to marginalise small but vocal minorities by labelling them as ‘extremists’ how ever just their cause, lets not paint ourselves into that corner. The debate seems to have settled into trench warfare mode, with seemingly no way out for both parties, may I make a couple of suggestions? If Fiat are so confident in the strength of their cause ( and gearboxes) why not do what an increasing number of car makers are doing. and give a five or seven year unlimited mileage guarantee on the drive train, or alternatively, or as well as, perhaps the dealers who are ‘Piggy in the middle’ as usual in this one, and probably stand to lose as much as anyone could set up an insurance based scheme giving similar protection, this could be financed by the parties concerned. Regards PKC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted September 16, 2008 Share Posted September 16, 2008 No offence taken pkc as everyone has a valid point of view and discussion is good for the soul - if not for the gearbox! The van's ride and driving feel are improved over the old vans, but I am also far from convinced that the ride and driving experience are that much better than the old van to justify the not inconsiderable expense of investing in one? Maybe it's a good time to take a look at offerings on a Renault, Ford, VW (T5 is good to drive but a bit cramped) or Mercedes Benz? I STILL WILL NOT BE BUYING A NEW DUCATO/BOXER! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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