Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder

[colin weston]

Hi Andy, I thought I ought to give an update having been away for some time.

Contacting Peugeot Customer Care about the letter I sent them in in May this year regarding water ingress and judder I was told that they never received it despite it being sent to their new address! Strange isn't it? They soon got a copy by email.

I was then assured that my vehicle would appear to be operating within their expectations for this type of vehicle. Can you believe that!

I then queried whether Peugeot's expectations for it's range of cars is different from those of the commercial vehicles.

 

I have responded to the Camping & Caravan Club survey and also seperately emailed Barry Norris. I got an encouraging email from him. I'll say no more than that at present.

 

As you know, Jenni Reagan is no longer connected with Watchdog which goes on air again this Autumn. I will send another email to them but if they are to take up our complaints it needs everyone with the problem to contact them.

 

Finally, if we get nowhere with all the publicity we are currently getting and hope to get in the future I would be willing to help finance legal proceedings as a last resort. However, like you I had various modifications made to my van during build and I don't want to get rid of it! What I want is a solution to the juddering problem.

[Sparky7]

Following a test drive I have recently refused to accept a judderer and am now in the process of trying to get my £1000.00 deposit back - no luck so far!

[Mel B]

Sparky7

 

If you haven't already, contact Trading Standards and get them involved. If the company are trying to fob you off with goods that are not 'fit for purpose' then you should have a case to get a full refund of your money back ... did you by any chance pay by credit card??

[kelly58]

colin weston - 2008-08-09 1:55 PM Hi Andy, I thought I ought to give an update having been away for some time. Contacting Peugeot Customer Care about the letter I sent them in in May this year regarding water ingress and judder I was told that they never received it despite it being sent to their new address! Strange isn't it? They soon got a copy by email. I was then assured that my vehicle would appear to be operating within their expectations for this type of vehicle. Can you believe that! I then queried whether Peugeot's expectations for it's range of cars is different from those of the commercial vehicles. I have responded to the Camping & Caravan Club survey and also seperately emailed Barry Norris. I got an encouraging email from him. I'll say no more than that at present. As you know, Jenni Reagan is no longer connected with Watchdog which goes on air again this Autumn. I will send another email to them but if they are to take up our complaints it needs everyone with the problem to contact them. Finally, if we get nowhere with all the publicity we are currently getting and hope to get in the future I would be willing to help finance legal proceedings as a last resort. However, like you I had various modifications made to my van during build and I don't want to get rid of it! What I want is a solution to the juddering problem.

Have you received the VOSA recall notice regarding your Peugeot I had mine back in May and eventually had the work done on 29/30/31 of July  ( see my earlier post ) and because of the delay in getting booked in at the Peugeot dealer I have received 3 letters from VOSA regarding the recall.

[colin weston]

kelly58

Yes I had the recall for checking the steering rack, upgrading a fuse and reprogramming the ECU. They also fitted an engine cover as a 'goodwill gesture'. I didn't get a collector like yours. I already had a cover fitted to the wiper motor but I moaned so much to the dealer about not having one on the starter motor that he fitted one even though he said he had no authority to do so. It appears that they are now charging for engine covers.

What I was complaining to Peugeot about was that there was no solution to stopping water ingress between the windscreen and the scuttle panel. Despite having tried to seal this joint I finally resorted to taping the joint which at least keeps the water out. I noticed recently when checking my engine oil level that the engine cover isn't fitted correctly. It is attached to two threaded studs at the rear but the two forward grommet mounts on the underside of the cover do not align with what appear to be 'grease nipple' like mounts on the top of the engine. Anyone else got this problem?

[colin weston]

I have just sent an email to Watchdog who will be starting their programme in November. You can find them on the BBC website, just Google 'watchdog bbc'. They are inviting people to get in contact with them so the more of us who contact them now the better. Their email is watchdog@bbc.co.uk but make sure you give your name and address and contact tel number. I have advised them about articles in MMM and the Caravan Club magazine.

[THE SHEPHERD]

Many thanks Andy you have saved me close to £40000 today as Mrs was taken by the new R40,but as it has the groupe gear box for Fiat/Peugot/Citroen, I have decided its too much of a gamble. Any ideas for a really sound long lasting base vehicle in the MWB range.

Regards Shepherd (!)

[steamer]

Yesterday i had a chance meeting with an old friend who has a mobile heavy plant fitting/service business , he is driving a 57 platelong wheelbase panel van fiat 160 with 6 speed box , naturally i quizzed him on it - his comments were " just eats hills , normally fully loaded at 3.5 ton ( plus some most of the time ! ) ", regularly has a trailer behind pushing it up to the 5 ton mark & with 15 k on the clock has had NO issues with clutch/g/box etc !.

when he asked my reason & i told him he just looked blank at me , he hadn't heard of any problems , all his comments were that it has its rattles & sqeaks & overall was better than the competition & considering the stick he gives it he's more than happy .

So i went & compared tyres - his 215/70/16 , ours 225/70/16 , i'm a little confused as to where the problem stems from , have we just got a batch of faulty flywheels floating about , is it the fact that there is some imbalance between cab & alko chassis or even as someone on here suspected faulty engine mountings - seen that before .

Ours as previously said is going back tomorrow to sort a faulty handbrake & i will try & sqeeze some info from them .

 

Steamer

[THE SHEPHERD]

Dear ALL

I have just spoken to our dealer who tells me that because the R40 is based on the Citroen Dispatch it is not affected by the group problems, is he right.

Any help appreciated. Shepherd

[Basil]

If you are talking of the Romahome R40 they are indeed on a different chassis to those affected by this problem.

Go ahead and enjoy!

 

Bas

[THE SHEPHERD]

Thank you Basil you have made one lady very happy, as for me !!

Regards Shepherd

[AndyStothert]

I tested a Citroen Dispatch for MMM a few months ago and it reversed up Honister Pass (1 in 5) without so much as a flutter, never mind a judder.

For those eejits who say driver technique may have some bearing on the juddering they should perhaps consider the fact that it is only the Ducato which is a problem. Have we ever had this kind of issue recently with any other vehicle?

 

 

[MotorhomeViews]

Dear Swift motorhomers

Guess the engineered problems are widespread and as such apply to all the Ducato X250's. looks like we are either going to accept the design faults or do something through the Law Courts.However having just paid our kids inheritence on our purchases do we want to outlay any more cash in persuing the judder issue? Suppose if we could get a petition running on the gov website, might be zero cost option.

 

Few questions spring to mind though, does anyone know how Peugot are engineering this judder out? Sure I read somewhere they have acknowledged the judder feature.

Why have no motoring organisations picked up on this issue, surely there must be some kind of quango set up for this, we have them for everything else in our lives, come on Gordon.

 

Does anyone know what the actual fix for the scuttle is? If you read my comments below, you will note my Unit has supposedly been rectified, should I have an engine cover and some form of drainage for the water pooling at each side of the scuttle?

___

My 2008 Swift 580PR 100 Multijet 2.2 supplied with the standard features listed below.

 

Engine:

Clutch judder supplied as standard with all fiat Ducato’s had smoking clutch in France while trying to reverse on to the levelling ramps. Always drive forward on to the ramp now. Fiat dealer says they have not heard of any reports of the judder issue reported the clutch as fine. Given conflicting advice, either increase the engine revs to avoid the shudder, decrease engine revs to prevent clutch slip.

 

Scuttle water ingress to the engine bay as standard water feature. Fiat main dealer has cleaned the engine and applied some kind of white stuff to various areas within the engine bay. Still have water reservoirs each side of the scuttle, the wiper spindle sits in a constant pool of water. Probably handy in case you find yourself running out of water maybe in a desert, could be a life saver.

 

Seals around the hatches poor, they have all turned black and gooey already .Makes the vehicle look much older than a 2008.

 

Is this off topic sorry if it is;

 

Big glob of mastic sealant on the roof about 2 inch diameter. Hope it’s not covering something up.

 

Bed collapsed on every occasion whilst in france for 9 weeks. Wife had to make modification using washing platted washing line down both sides of pull out bed lats. Bed lats splinters entered seat cushion.

New lats fitted at dealers , bed faults corrected by the dealer.

 

Gaslow system fitted at dealers . filler point installed at head height, makes difficult to hold the heavy filling gun at this height. Also blows gas back in to your face when you release the filling nozzle.

 

Now I have to say what a fantastic unit the X250 is apart from the obvious above.

It looks great

Performs brilliantly forward

Fantastic economy 35-40 mpg

Extremely comfortable

Easy to drive

Quiet operation

great all round views

Rear view mirrors give excellent vision. (has anybody had to replace one yet) French nutter Builder collided with my offside mirror. Made small hole in the casing, about £300 to replace. so if you ever see a 2008 Swift 580PR with red masking tape in the shape of the red cross , you'll know it's us.

 

Anyway thanks in anticipation for listing this in the Forum

 

 

[Sparky7]

Yes I did contact Trading Standards but they didn't really give me any advice - just told me what to do to seek redress in the small claims court; which I already know. Trouble is, if I do that and can't prove "unfit for purpose", which is difficult as I don't actually have the vehicle (thank goodness), the dealer can counterclaim for their expenses, which would include the fact that it was a special order, and they had already obtained various other items that I wanted fitted to it. I've written to them politely twice, and although they answered the first letter, to say they were having the vehicle checked out (by Fiat haha), they haven't yet answered my second letter. Life is too short to pursue cowboys through the courts, especially if I cannot be sure I'd win.

[THE SHEPHERD]

I feel better about the R40 now as I have driven sheep up Honister so If it copes with that it will do. Many thanks to all who gave advice and help. The Shepherd

[niton]

We, my wife and I, ordrered a new Pilote P690FGR on the Fiat Ducato 3 Litre 160 multijet at the NEC show last October and took delivery from the Midlands Main Importer and Dealer in March this year. Up to now we have only done around 1500 miles in this country and are very pleased with it although it does not fell right when it is reversed as even on the flat there is a slight judder. One should not have to increase the revs to reverse a vehicle. Usually you set the revs for the circumstances you find yourself in.

 

We are off to France in September and having read about Andy's problems with his secong gearbox we are a little aprehensive. This should not be the case having spent over £40K on our Motorhome. As we have as yet not experienced any significant judder we cannot complain to Fiat.

 

Fiat appear to turning out the Ducato as usual and manufactures are selling them and advertising them as if nothing is wrong. I looked at the Pilote 2009 brochure today online and the majority of the models are now on the Fiat Ducato with only a few in the top of the range on the Mercedes.

 

It leaves me puzzled as to what is going on. Are they not having the judder problem on the continent?

 

We will be away in France for 9 weeks so will give our 'van a good testing. I only hope I don't return with rattles in the gearbox. The uncertainty on how our van will perform is a worry that we didn't expect when we ordered it last October.

 

If Fiat do solve the problem how will we know when they started to fit them to new 'vans? They will not tell us, will they.

I am not sure how this problem can ever be resolved.

Regards,

Peter.

[AndyStothert]

Re the last post there are several things which spring to mind - firstly the that the juddering seems much more sporadic (but extreme) on the 3 litre models.

Some do it, some don't, whereas the 120 and 130 models are much more consistently bad.

The 100 models, which have lower overall gearing, tend to be (with a few notable exceptions) not nearly so badly afflicted.

Will Fiat tell us when the have a fix in place in the factory? Not a hope in hell, but Fiat have employees who have defective motorhomes in Italy and information has been seeping out.

 

And yes, they are doing it all over Europe - there are similar discussions going on in Italy (where legal action as a group is very likely now), France and Germany that we know about.

 

 

[Guest Tracker]

It was mentioned on another thread that remapping of the ecu helped alleviate the problem on some Transits which use the same engine, and presumably, the same transmission and engine mounts?

 

If a reputable engine tuner, chipper or remapper can be found who would be happy to experiment with different torque and power settings maybe an improvement could be found that might at least be enough to prevent gearbox destruction and/or clutch burn out?

 

If such an expert could be found he might just find that he has a lot of potential customers forming an orderly queue at his door?

 

If it failed, then you would at least know what it isn't.

 

Does one of you with an afflicted van have the time and inclination to enquire I wonder.

 

Just a thought - grasping at straws maybe- but still a thought?

[AndyStothert]

The Transit transmission and clutch is a completely different unit - I'm told that nothing is common besides the basic engine lump. And not as much of that as may be imagined.

We are still waiting for confirmation that Peugeot will be starting to fit a lower ratio reverse gear to the 5 speed versions within the next few weeks.

If they actually do this (?) then Fiat will eventually have to do the same on their 5 speed equipped motorcaravans.

Which will leave the majority still without a solution.

 

[steamer]

hi all,

 

my swift went to fiat dealer yesterday for brakes etc , we also chucked in the judder for good measure ! , yes i can make it judder if i want to but in saying that when we came home i reversed it some 40 yards up our yard in one go to its spot with no problems .anyway - dealers comments -

judder- charatistics of the vehicle !!, suprise , i was told how to set revs etc etc - when i explained that i am an engineer by trade & would not be taken in by jargon ( to put it mildly ) he somewhat stepped down a peg or two . sensible discussion ensured & he did tell me that they have had no problems with the standard panel vans , something i heard first hand last weekend .His opinion was that there was an imbalance somewhere in the conversion which was putting a strain on engine / power train in some instances

we both agreed that in a normal panel van the weight is kept mostly on the floor & in a smaller footprint as compared to a motorhome whic makes the best of all availble space & also the panel van is a vehicle built before power train fitted .Having previous experience of vehicle body building i would be questioning the chassis to cab connections as this will only act as a hinge . i'm sorry this doesn't answer andy's problem , perhaps as he says he has been unfortunate to have one of a faulty component batch .

I questioned the clutch smell when putting onto ramps to be told that the clutch was ok but if it failed by component breakage i.e spring letting go etc it would be covered but not from burning caused by slipping/riding clutch .I denoted from that comment that the clutch arrangement fitted was to small to cope with application , after all panel vans are generally up to 3.5 tons whereas our vans are 4.25 tons all the time again coming back to the imbalance situation .

I'm not taking any sides here just looking for the problem without getting embroiled in the politics .

 

steamer

[Rayjsj]

The point is, Andy's IS a panel van conversion, and it looks like i'ts going to have to have two gearboxes under warranty, if it was faulty components i'm sure they would have been changed as a matter of course during the replacement ?? I still think the 'use high revs and slip the clutch' instruction is a recipe for many burnt-out clutches which are NOT covered by warranty. At the very least reduced clutch life. which would be passed on to some unsuspecting 2nd owner.

Some of the money spent on 2 page adverts promoting the new Sevel chassis should be used in treating THEIR existing customers Fairly. AND solving the problem. :D :D

[AndyStothert]

There is good news today - from Peugeot.

 

They have stated categorically that they will be taking steps to cure the juddering on all the Peugeot models affected.

The first step will be to re-map the ECU and then if that doesn't cure the problem they will change reverse gear for one of a lower ratio.

The gear ratio change will be avialable from some time in December (ish) but the ECU changes are due to start as soon as can be arranged.

All production vehicles from January 09 onwards will be fitted with a lower ratio reverse gear.

Only those who complain will get anything done, so if you have a Peugeot and haven't yet made an official complaint then get to it - if only for the sake of whoever may buy the van in years to come.

Hopefully Fiat will follow suit, but their behaviour so far doesn't suggest that they will do it honourably or willingly.

[Itexuk]

Have booked my Fiat x250 in for a service next week and been told there is 5 recalls to be done. They said one of them is a re- map of the ECU to try and stop judder.

[Bob Elswood]

Thought about upgrading my camper van maybe next year.

 

( I have a Peugeot Boxer 2.00 Ltr HDI base)

 

After reading about all the problems with the new models I won't touch them with a barge pole!!

 

Guess it will be a Mercedes Sprinter in future or anything other than Peugeot or Fiat!!

[niton]

I have had the ECU upgrade carried out to my Motorhome, (Pilote P690FG on a Fiat 3L 160 multijet) and the only difference I noticed was an increase in fuel consumption.

Peter.