Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder

[davenewellhome]

Andy, I don't want to fall out with anyone, least of all a mate, but I've been trying very hard to ascertain what might be the cause of this judder/vibration. I've driven around 20 or so of these vehicles and none of them have exhibited what I would call a truly horrendous judder/vibration. Without first hand experience of the fault it is very difficult to come up with any reasonable explanation as to the cause. I have repeatedly said that it might well be that my test hill is not steep enough and I have asked if anyone with a badly juddering unit would be prepared to let me try it and experience it first hand, to date NO ONE has come forward!

 

I'm more than happy to try and help with this but without first hand experience of it its bloody difficult to come up with any reasonable cause and therefore solution.

 

You originally said that a hill of 1 in 5 would produce the problem, I've tried it on a steep ramp, albeit only 900mm long, but it still gets pretty close to your specified gradient, I've also tried almost every one of the 'vans I've driven on a steepish ramp near my workshop, often with the owner sitting alongside and not once have I managed to generate anything more serious than an irritating vibration and I certainly haven't managed to smoke a clutch!

 

I'm sorry if you don't find my postings helpful but they are factual and honest.

 

D.

[fred grant]

so what do we call you now dave my biddy?

 

factual dave, or

 

honest john?

[Clive]

I guess that the pile of mail in the Jago postbox should indicate that its a tad more than a figment of Andy,s imagination. (See MMM latest article on the subject)

 

 

[davenewellhome]

Nobody is suggesting its a figment of anyones imagination Clive. All I'm trying to say is I've yet to experience it and until I do I can't put together any sensible suggestions of what might be the cause and thereby the remedy. Various people have made wild guesses as to the cause ranging from engine mountings (my own initial suspect) to dual mass flywheels and gear ratios. Me, I prefer to work with facts not assumptions and facts start with experiencing the fault.

 

By the way, at least one person has said they smoked their clutch trying to get onto levelling ramps, my ramp is steeper and longer than any levelling ramps I've ever seen yet it produced nothing more than an unpleasant vibration.

 

D.

[AndyStothert]

Dave,

God bless you for replying. Gives me another chance to re-utter the destructive juddering chant.

 

Gravity being what it is when you only have a maximum of half the vehicle on the slope the mass is less than half of that when the whole weight is on the slope. And with a single workshop ramp this is excatly what happens. When the rear then gets on the level part the overhang actually relieves some of the load on the front.

I know you were genuinely trying to get a handle of this mess but I think the time for disscussing causes is probably well past now, with hundreds of complaints to Fiat, and what we should really be devoting our collective thoughts to is coming up with ideas to ensure Fiat (et al) find the solution for those affected rather than just a quietly instigated fix for production vehicles at some time in the future.

Incidentally today has brought another clutch failure to light and two more six speed gearboxes Fiat will have to replace.

You can experience the judder on level ground (grass) at Malvern - but only if our van manages to keep running until then. And after another visit to Fiat today there are some doubts.

[davenewellhome]

OK Andy, see you at Malvern mate ;-) .

 

D.

[steamer]

I today booked our swift into the fiat dealer in swansea for a handbrake that has issues , talking to them about the juddering situation their comments were that not all vehicles were affected , however they said that if we were to experience any problems theywould investigate willingly .

I have said that in putting the vehicle onto levelling ramps recently i did experience some clutch smell , at the time i put that down to newness as i have with the brakes smelling but we will see .

 

[Melvin]

Hi

 

I cant believe how arrogrant Fiat proffesional are. On the Monday I had my motorhome inspected, the workshop manager confirmed the transmission vibration, but also noted the clutch was now begin to slip on a very slight gradient. He is personnally discussed with Fiat, but his hands are tied.

 

I just phoned Fiat this afternoon they told me they sent a letter out yesterday (tuesday) with their basic fob off letter, cant find anything wrong etc.

 

Funny that, this morning (wednesday) the workshop manager phoned and asked my mileage 1600, and would would email Fiat with his report.

 

I just phoned back the workshop manager, he told me that is typical of Fiat. He also informed me ( off the record ) Fiat have no intention of resoving the problem.

 

Melvin Biggle

 

[Melvin]

The Fiat Commercial dealer phoned this morning to tell me Fiat have warned them off, under no circumstances are they to supply me with a copy, and I will be recieving the standard letter from Fiat.

 

Unfortunately I hope to get a report from the RAC and Mercedes

 

 

[AndyStothert]

Does anyone know what 'hold' Fiat have over the dealers?

Is it just that they will remove the franchise if they step out of line?

I say this because whilst our dealer has been (like Melvin's) helpful and told me all the same things off the record, they will not, under any circumstances, give me the written proof that Fiat have been told that our vehicle is defective.

And unfortunately the Freedom of Information Act doesn't cover private companies such as Fiat, so their internal lies will remain private.

[Brian Kirby]

davenewell@home - 2008-08-06 6:47 AM OK Andy, see you at Malvern mate ;-) . D.

There's a few good 'ills around Malvern, Dave, if you and Andy are feeling brave!  I dare you, and can we all watch please?

[Mrs Sea]

Just had my Adria Twin back form Fiat. They have carried out a service and 3 recall fixes which are:- 1) remove boot on steering rack, grease and replace boot

2) replace started motor fuse

3)coat injector with anti-corrosion coating (2 coats).

Seems Peugeot are doing rather more.

 

I asked why they hadn't dealt with the real problem of water pouring onto the engine from the windscreen and scuttle, surely an anticorrosion coating is hardly going to solve this. He said that he could order me the 'Supplementary Kit' which is an engine cover to deflect the water. It also comes with a sealant to put behind the scuttle.

 

I said why wasn't this done the first time and he said it wasn't part of the Fiat recall, just an extra if requested by owner. It doesn't cost me anything to fit it apparently but I had to ask for it! They don't fit these to commercial Fiat Ducatos though, only motorhomes......?! I'll let you know if they do a decent job of fixing it.

 

Finally we discussed the juddering problem mentioned on this forum. So far my Twin has been fine but it is the 2.2 5 gear model. He said he had dealt with several of the 3l models reportedly with a judder in reverse. He stressed the Fiat line about needing 2000 revs and not trying to do it at idling speed. He personnally had reversed these vans up their steep ramp which leads from the underground basement to the salesroom above without any difficulty.

[Guest Tracker]

I don't know for sure but I would have guessed that reversing the undriven rear wheels onto a garage ramp with the driven front wheels on a firm level floor was not comparing like for like in reversing the whole van up a similar gradient in real life when all four wheels will be on the incline with distractions like maybe a loose surface, other road users or a bend to contend with?

 

I like the new Ducato but I sure as hell ain't gonna buy one until a guaranteed free to me fix is established and proven - so I'm not holding my breath!

[fred grant]

and remember, reversing up too fast could give you the bends aswell my biddy.

 

deepseadiverfred

[Melvin]

May I suguest we all send a email to David Cameron, it will be a good oppertuntity to show us what he is made of.

 

camerond@parliment.uk

[Derek Uzzell]

Surely that e-mail address is wrong?

[Melvin]

It from his site

[parkmoy]

It from his site

 

It would be if you'd spelled parliAment correctly B-)

[AndyStothert]

After an 8000 mile tour of Europe when the van performed well enough I took it into the local Fiat dealers on Tuesday for them to listen to a strange rattling noise from the gearbox which had gradually been making itself heard whilst we were away.

The dealers have decided that it requires yet another replacement gearbox, and I'm beginning to wonder where all this will end.

What are we to do with this van?

Even if Fiat do come up with a fix for the juddering what else is going to drop to bits?

Will we be able to sell it? Ever?

 

 

[Elliot]

Andy: Surely this is the time to say enough is enough. Let them replace the gearbox tell them you do not wish to have a judder of any shape or form. Then have your own engineer to inspect it before you accept it back and demand a certificate of no judder “for want of better terminology” for now or ever into the future. It will be on their premises unless you are 100% happy you are entitled not to accept it back. You never know it may work

 

 

Best of Luck

 

[fred grant]

denzils garage is workin on a way to mate the old gearbox to the new engine. if successfull he says he will market it thro mmm, he does. but he will need a good supply of old stile gearboxes, me ansums, so if there any donors out there get in touch with den at trevithick garage. container loads would be quite welcome if this cums off my biddies.

 

f

[mike 202]

Andy if you can find the cash and you PX if for a Ford/Merc etc base vehicle to a dealer who says that there is no such thing as a judder then you should get top Dollar and no excuses about depreciation because of judder etc.

I did the same myself. I could not in all honesty sell privately. So if the "no problem exists" dealers get stuck with unsaleable stock then its their fault for not being honest or helping the cause in the first place.

 

I still follow the thread with interest and inform as many fellow enthusiasts of the content of the thread and my own experiences.

 

Good Luck

Mike

[AndyStothert]

Unfortunately (or fortunately) we really like our custom built camper, and if we were to p/x it for a stock item we would then have something we don't want.

So, what we'd have to do then is commission another custom built camper like the one we've got (but not on a Fiat or Peugeot - which is the only one which accommodates the layout, and is the only reason we ordered one) and, where was I? Oh yes, p/xing for a stock item, ordering another custom built one (12 months waiting time) then selling the stock item when the new custom built camper was ready. Have you all followed that? I'm exhausted just thinking about it.

If only Fiat could have built it without a howling great cock-up which should never have got through the testing procedures they say they have in place.

AND if I flog it some other poor sod will end up with it, and that isn't a very sociable thing to do to someone.

Every day Fiat and Peugeot continue to produce yet more of these defective vehicles - knowing the consequences - and it seesm there's nowt we can do about it except attempt to stop folk buying them.

 

IT APPEARS THAT FOLK ARE STILL POSTING ON THE ORIGINAL THREAD, WHICH IS A WASTE OF TIME AS ANY NEW POSTS WILL NOT SHOW ON THE FORUM.

And Colin - don't stop just because you've been misunderstood.

[Jeffus]

Hi guys and gals,

 

Trying my third post, can't seem to make 'em stick. I have just joined your forums having heard of you on other forums.

 

I have been in touch with Andy S and am following this thread with interest/dread. I take delivery of a new Bessacarr E795 (160 multijet) on the 1st September. Dealer says I can have a test drive before acceptance but don't say what's gonna happen if I refuse to accept and do I get my deposit back?

 

I'll let you know how I get on. Hope it's not a judderer. >:-( >:-( >:-( >:-(

 

Jeffus.

 

Edit, just read the warning in caps at the bottom of Andy's last post. So THAT'S why my previous posts didn't stick. I'm new to this forum, I didn't know the old thread was defunct, sorry.

[gowerdog]

If this has been pasted previously I apologise

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

VOLUNTARY RECALL SYSTEM Recall campaigns are launched and monitored as agreed in the various voluntary Codes of Practice formulated from discussions between the Department for Transport and representative bodies of the Motor Industry. These codes set out the guidelines on procedures for the recall of vehicles and components that have safety related defects, due to a feature of design or construction, and which are liable to cause significant risk of injury to the driver, occupants of the vehicle or other road users.

 

The first code was introduced in 1979, (a link to this code is at the top of the page) and applies to all motor vehicles sold in Great Britain. A further six codes have been introduced since 1982, (details of which can be obtained direct from Vehicle Safety Branch) and cover the following:

 

Trailers under 3500kg GVW

Commercial Trailers 3500kg and over

Tyres, Wheels and Valves

Motorcycles

Parts and Accessories

Pedal Cycles.

It is the responsibility of the manufacturer to inform VOSA when substantial evidence of a safety defect that requires remedial action, has been confirmed. Additionally, evidence may be presented to the manufacturer by VOSA as a result of investigations into accidents, and safety defects which have been brought to their attention from other sources.

:-(