mike 202 Posted September 16, 2008 Share Posted September 16, 2008 PKC, you say any bolder action would or could be counter productive to our cause. Nothing has been done so far by Fiat/the dealers/the converters so how can you go below Zero. Are they going to be upset and send out Spooks in the night, or set up a curse to bugger the gearbox even more by remote control. NO the lets be nice has not worked, so show them up for what they are, arrogant and liers. As for the "poor" dealers they just dont care for any one but them selves. WELL DONE fellow sufferer at Malvern, I bet you sleep better at nights knowing that you have saved at least one soul for certain and probably more that listened to you. Just keep a wary eye on your back. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike 202 Posted September 16, 2008 Share Posted September 16, 2008 Sorry Tracker meant to say Shepton Mallet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yeti Posted September 16, 2008 Share Posted September 16, 2008 Bought my Auto Trail Scout in June 2008 2 local trail trips one of about 40 miles and one of about 120. Only problem was a massive 'thump' on start up. In July we went away for a week to Lancashire,on arrival at campsite the van juddered when trying to reverse onto pitch and clutch was smoking. When we came to move the van the clutch pedal was hard down onto the floor,it freed itself after about 2 miles!also trying to find 1st.2nd and reverse is becoming more impossible. All reported tp FIAT who gave me a garage now where near me,when I informed tghem who was near to me and an appropriate garage they have agreed,subject to Slough head office agreeing. When I ordered the vehicle I originally wanted it on a Merc,but was told that they weren't making any on the Merc,I bet AT regret that decision!! >:-( :'( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clive Posted September 16, 2008 Share Posted September 16, 2008 Our AT Scout on a Merc has been faultless. 11 years old now and still perfic. Just run in 45000 miles. ?? C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted September 16, 2008 Share Posted September 16, 2008 catinou - 2008-09-15 7:47 PM Not at all Rupert - the van was practically empty - as was the Smart car's petrol tank. We always travel with the minimum items on board (it helps save fuel) and our water tanks are never more than 1/2 full. The judder on our van has been assessed and agreed to be on reverse AND 1st gear on take off. I don't know the technical reasons etc. but Adams Morey have reported their findings on our particular van to Fiat. :-S JennyYou were travelling through Germany to Italy with a practically empty van? No clothes, food, wine, water, bedding, levelling ramps, towels, washing up equipment, etc, etc, and you were towing a smart?The spinning wheels are a symptom of lack of traction, meaning the weight on the front wheels was insufficient to enable the tyres to drag the combined weight of van plus Smart up the hill. If you haven't already done this, therefore, I would suggest you take the van, laden as for normal travel, plus the Smart on its A frame, to the nearest weighbridge, and check that you are not exceeding your permissible Gross Train Weight. If unsure, this will be the bottom, highest value, figure shown on the data plate for your van, normally found somewhere under the bonnet. The handbook will tell you where. If you exceed this weight, which is the combined actual laden weights of both van and trailer, you won't get any sympathy from Fiat. If you are close to it, don't necessarily expect your van to re-start on hills! GTW is the maximium weight at which the vehicle can be expected to re-start on a hill of a particular severity (I can't remember how steep, but it is not that steep). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catinou Posted September 16, 2008 Share Posted September 16, 2008 Brian, When I said practically empty I actually meant that we had no unecessary items for us i.e. several empty lockers and the van carefully loaded with minimum contents - such as sauces, spices etc in small containers instead of glass bottles and jars etc. We did not have much more food than we needed for a couple of days as we tend not to waste time cooking when on a long journey. The waste water tank was empty, the water tank is never filled above 50% when travelling. Only 2 of us are in the van and we always shop on arrival in Italy - usually in Auchan near Verona. Last year we towed a trailer which weighed about 1200 k as well as the Smart car and had no real problems and we have had the van weighed already which shows plenty of payload left on both axles. Maybe I didn't explain the situation very well, but the wheelspin was because we had to increase the revs significantly as the van would not move uphill in 1st gear from a standing start. Even after taking the Smart and A frame off the back the van would still not go up the hill and my husband had to back carefully down and turn around so we could drive seperately to a safe place to hitch up again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catinou Posted September 16, 2008 Share Posted September 16, 2008 Brian, When I said practically empty I actually meant that we had no unecessary items for us i.e. several empty lockers and the van carefully loaded with minimum contents - such as sauces, spices etc in small containers instead of glass bottles and jars etc. We did not have much more food than we needed for a couple of days as we tend not to waste time cooking when on a long journey. The waste water tank was empty, the water tank is never filled above 50% when travelling. Only 2 of us are in the van and we always shop on arrival in Italy - usually in Auchan near Verona. Last year we towed a trailer which weighed about 1200 k as well as the Smart car and had no real problems and we have had the van weighed already which shows plenty of payload left on both axles. Maybe I didn't explain the situation very well, but the wheelspin was because we had to increase the revs significantly as the van would not move uphill in 1st gear from a standing start. Even after taking the Smart and A frame off the back the van would still not go up the hill and my husband had to back carefully down and turn around so we could drive seperately to a safe place to hitch up again. Sorry "twitchy finger syndrome" strikes again :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zulurita Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 Well done Tracker. More people need to be made aware of the design fault of the NEW Fiat Ducato X250. It really isn't FAIR on us customers who spend their life savings on a motorhome and often do not have the funds to buy another one and are left with a vehicle that is really not fit for purpose. Although my gearbox hasn't failed (yet) I am constantly worried as to where I am driving incase I have to reverse! It is bad enough in normal situations reversing on the flat etc when there is vibration despite doing what Fiat advise. Being as careful as I can, I still get vibrations when reversing on the flat or slight slopes let alone anything steeper. I have stalled trying to reverse onto campsite pitches and that is trying to keep revs up to Fiats recommended level! Taking a wrong turn and having to reverse in awkward situations is a nightmare! So more people do need to be made aware of the Fiat Ducato X250's problems. A new gearbox, clutch etc are all expensive items, why should we bear the cost of a design fault!! If Fiat stated that they would help those of us with these affected vehicles then we would be happy I am sure but leaving us in limbo is just BAD. My vehicle will be a year old in November and I haven't heard anything from Fiat other than to give me a case number. I for one will not buy another Fiat vehicle unless they resolve this problem for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Parke Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 I have just purchased a new Peugeot Boxer 2.2 HDi based Autoquest 130. Picked it up a couple of weeks ago but have not used it to any extent to date. Took it for a short 100 mile run yesterday as I was 'desperate' to drive it. I found nothing wrong with it whatsoever. O.K. I did not have to reverse up a hill or any sort of incline but I did do some reversing to see if there was a problem but, as I say, nothing. Is the problem refered to soley a FIAT one? It seems funny if it is just FIAT related as they all come off the same production line, do they not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 Mike Parke - 2008-09-17 10:15 AM I have just purchased a new Peugeot Boxer 2.2 HDi based Autoquest 130. Picked it up a couple of weeks ago but have not used it to any extent to date. Took it for a short 100 mile run yesterday as I was 'desperate' to drive it. I found nothing wrong with it whatsoever. O.K. I did not have to reverse up a hill or any sort of incline but I did do some reversing to see if there was a problem but, as I say, nothing. Is the problem refered to soley a FIAT one? It seems funny if it is just FIAT related as they all come off the same production line, do they not? I have not myself sat two makes side by side, but note that others have and commented on the differances. Haveing some vans that judder and some not is quite easy to explain and I'm supprised how many people comment on it, all parts are made to tollerances, a certain part or combination of parts with differant tollerance is, IMO, causing this. As to when or if your van will judder, I have driven three vans, one didn't judder, the other two did, but not on flat tarmac, but when reversing on sloping soft(ish) grass, to quantify that, my T25 happily reverses up that slope with no effort whatsoever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david lloyd Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 Mike Parke - 2008-09-17 10:15 AM I have just purchased a new Peugeot Boxer 2.2 HDi based Autoquest 130. Picked it up a couple of weeks ago but have not used it to any extent to date. Took it for a short 100 mile run yesterday as I was 'desperate' to drive it. I found nothing wrong with it whatsoever. O.K. I did not have to reverse up a hill or any sort of incline but I did do some reversing to see if there was a problem but, as I say, nothing. Is the problem refered to soley a FIAT one? It seems funny if it is just FIAT related as they all come off the same production line, do they not? Hi Mike I know the thread is getting rather long now but, from the beginning, you will see that it is a SEVEL problem not a FIAT problem. One of the main differences is that Peugeot have since acknowledged there is a problem and have promised a fix (albeit may take many months to sort out) but Fiat are not, as yet, accepting there is even a problem never mind actively seeking to rectify the affected vehicles under warranty. Purely on the bassis of the way in which Fiat, particularly, have handled the issue we decided not to buy a new van conversion recently on the X250 chassis and opted instead for a late (previous) model Fiat. Even when it comes to replacemnent time for that I will have serious doubts about buying ANY X250 based van that may have the problem lurking beneath - as yet, we do not know if the problem may manifest itself inlater years after the warranty has run out - hence the anger that those affected feel unless Fiat do something positive. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Parke Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 Thank you, gents for that. I had not read the thread in its entireity as until a couple of weeks back I had the 'old' model and, for course, the information contained herein did not effect my Motorhome. I can only say you would have thought they would have found the fault pre production or, at least, admit the fault afterwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 And is if the judder ain't enough the tight fisted bu##ars don't even give you a spare wheel any more - although you can pay for one - but heaven knows where you can store it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted September 17, 2008 Author Share Posted September 17, 2008 Greetings all, We've been blissfully computer-less for the best part of a week and it's given me a little time to assess my part in all of this, and whether it is worth me keep buzzing around the monster which is Fiat. And I was also hoping for some good news from Fiat as one of the senior managers at Fiat UK told me three weeks ago that he hoped to have some good news for UK Fiat owners within three weeks. This was one reason why I haven't been really pushing the T shirt event for the NEC - as I really believed that Fiat were in the throes of sorting out an arrangement similar to that being offered by Peugeot. That particular senior manager is back in the office tomorrow so hopefully I can find out if we have any need to start printing the Tee shirts. However I'm not sure there will be enough volunteers to wear them where it counts - for several reasons. Firstly the offer of a solution (lower ratio reverse gear) from Peugeot once the new gerabox is put into production in January means that (understandably to a certain extent) that the Peugeot owners think it is all sorted out. Secondly (and again understandable) many of the Fiat owners also think that the 'battle' has been morally won and that Fiat will inevitably follow Peugeots' lead, so they feel that a 'let it develop' attitude is now appropriate. Thirdly half of 'em claim to be in Spain. But fourthly, as most of these vans are owned by, shall we say, the more mature and least outrageous section of society imaginable, the thought of 'Direct Action' seems to fill them with dread. And again you can see why. Not all are as demented as Clive and I. Everybody says they will buy one (back to the Tee shirts) but wearing it in the right place at the right time is what matters, and if there aren't enough folk willing to do that there is no point me going to the trouble of getting them printed and posted. But we will see - I'm going to see what Fiat say, then consult with the list of 160 odd owners I have to see what they think. The otheraffecte owners (held on lists with MMM and also I think, the the Motorcaravanners club) are outside of my reach. I'll let everyone know what Fiat have to say - but I suspect it will be nothing - as has happened in Italy, but where they are to start fitting the modified gearboxes to those who have shouted loudest. But only them. Whichever way this breaks Fiat are NOT going to do a recall - that is for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 Your right about some people not wanting to take action, was talking to a Fiat owner about month ago, his van judders, he is aware of these threads on forums, when I asked what dealer said, he told me he had not complained but was waiting to see what happens and if a recall is made :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 One chap I spoke to at Shepton Mallet told me that his juddered but he was afraid to complain to his dealer as it might impact further on the value of his already (he felt) devalued investment. I can understand that point of view but the trouble with burying your head in the sand is that it leaves yer bum very exposed! We will be at Pickering this weekend and I will again tell anyone I get the chance to about the combined triple whammy 'Perils of Sevel' - water ingress - judder - no spare wheel. Talk about the Holy Trinity! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diydoolittle Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 As a long time (still unresolved leaker!!) and an unknown judderer, one year in dispute and therefore unable to drive vehicle, now on the brink of litigation (in court by end of year!) All I can reasonably add is, as yet after at least 18 months of acknowledging the scuttlegate problem it is still an issue. Vans are still being sold without recalls and leaking like a sieve. This in a vehicle which is the subject of a safety recall. It is for that reason I do not hold out much hope of a fix on juddergate any time soon! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abb Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 Tracker - 2008-09-17 9:16 PM We will be at Pickering this weekend and I will again tell anyone I get the chance to about the combined triple whammy 'Perils of Sevel' - water ingress - judder - no spare wheel. Talk about the Holy Trinity! The spare wheel saga is not just confined to Fiat. I've just bought a new Rapido on a Merc. It has no spare wheel. Just a lousy small conpressor and a can of some chimical to use in an emergency. I did'nt even notice that the spare wheel was missing till the debate in this forum. When I checked, of course it was too late to force the dealer to supply one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steamer Posted September 18, 2008 Share Posted September 18, 2008 Having been keeping an eye on what goes on here , last week i had a chance conversation with a fellow engineer who changed from caravan to motorhome in last few years , he has experienced no judders at all & having done several thousand miles to boot , neither of us can really fathom this out - are we back to the vehicle balance factor ?. anyway - spare wheels , i not got one - can they be sourced along with chassis bits & retrofitted easily , i personally don't like the compressor gizmo ( perhaps old fashioned ! ) , have looked under my van & there seems to be plenty of room & holes for attacmments . Steamer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike 202 Posted September 18, 2008 Share Posted September 18, 2008 Andy and fellow/potential owners, Just the act of printing the T- shirts will create the element of uncertainty for Fiat etc., OK so some of us will be in Spain but once the T-shirts are printed and distributed, they will not wear out and be useless after NEC. There are lots of other Club rallies, other National shows where the word can be spread. Businesses call it Networking. One person sees a T-shirt, asks what it is about, conversation tales place, they tell another and before you know it a Snowball effect has taken place. Not all Owners even know that this forum exists, but all Motorhomers love to chat. Look at what Tracker achieved without a T-shirt, now add the T-shirt and Bingo a ready made ice breaker. " Whats the T-shirt about" - then off we go chapter and verse with emotion, which the forum cannot reproduce. So Andy, you have had a good idea, dont let less than 100 at the NEC stop you, please get them printed, I am sure most of the M/H community. will support you any way we can Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowley Posted September 18, 2008 Share Posted September 18, 2008 I am not sure that the lack of a spare wheel is entirely a Fiat fault. It may be more to do with the converters as my Adria Twin has one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted September 19, 2008 Author Share Posted September 19, 2008 Well, I've spoken to the only man at Fiat who talks any sense (Steve Barker, the chassis supply manager) and he assures me that something positive will be worked out by Fiat for current owners. I have no reason to distrust Mr Barker as he has been absolutely straight with everybody from the beginning, so I suppose this is better news than previously. BUT, with Fiat being such a slippery autocratic organisation where nothing is said or done without Fiat HQ in Italy OK-ing it there is still no official comment from Fiat. Next week we will see whether they are prepared to say that there is an issue which needs resolving. Fiat say they will get back to me 'soon' with some news, but so far........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rainbow-Chasers Posted September 19, 2008 Share Posted September 19, 2008 As an interesting addition to this debate, i recently discovered from a ducato van owner, that the basic van judders as well! So any excuse the owners are given such as 'it isnt built to be a motorhome' is unfounded, as the commercial van suffers with the same fault, confirming the fact that it is mechanical/design error! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike 202 Posted September 20, 2008 Share Posted September 20, 2008 Andy, I hope your Fiat man is good and true, but as you say Fiat UK has its hands tied by Fiat Italy. As a projet manager and If I was running Fiat, then on hearing about your scheme with the T-shirts at the NEC, I would use all delaying tactics to stop the adverse publicity at such a public event. Fiat Italy may be useing and stringing your contact along with mis-information. A project timeline should show the point at which, you/we will be too late. 1. Get money from owners, 2. Place the order, 3 Receive T-shirts, 4 Pack and post. It is only 15 ish working days to the show, so take into account the time for your man to give you an answer then FIAT HAVE WON - WE have LOST a golden opportunity. So why not print the T-shirts and let us buy them - If Fiat come clean then we dont use them, we just keep them as a souvenir. I am sure no one will consider it a waste of money. Regards Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickann Posted September 20, 2008 Share Posted September 20, 2008 I am in total agreement with Mick 202 comments Andy get the ''T'' shirts on sale Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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