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Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
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userniton
Posted: 10 August 2008 6:02 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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We, my wife and I, ordrered a new Pilote P690FGR on the Fiat Ducato 3 Litre 160 multijet at the NEC show last October and took delivery from the Midlands Main Importer and Dealer in March this year. Up to now we have only done around 1500 miles in this country and are very pleased with it although it does not fell right when it is reversed as even on the flat there is a slight judder. One should not have to increase the revs to reverse a vehicle. Usually you set the revs for the circumstances you find yourself in.

We are off to France in September and having read about Andy's problems with his secong gearbox we are a little aprehensive. This should not be the case having spent over £40K on our Motorhome. As we have as yet not experienced any significant judder we cannot complain to Fiat.

Fiat appear to turning out the Ducato as usual and manufactures are selling them and advertising them as if nothing is wrong. I looked at the Pilote 2009 brochure today online and the majority of the models are now on the Fiat Ducato with only a few in the top of the range on the Mercedes.

It leaves me puzzled as to what is going on. Are they not having the judder problem on the continent?

We will be away in France for 9 weeks so will give our 'van a good testing. I only hope I don't return with rattles in the gearbox. The uncertainty on how our van will perform is a worry that we didn't expect when we ordered it last October.

If Fiat do solve the problem how will we know when they started to fit them to new 'vans? They will not tell us, will they.
I am not sure how this problem can ever be resolved.
Regards,
Peter.
userAndyStothert
Posted: 10 August 2008 7:49 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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Re the last post there are several things which spring to mind - firstly the that the juddering seems much more sporadic (but extreme) on the 3 litre models.
Some do it, some don't, whereas the 120 and 130 models are much more consistently bad.
The 100 models, which have lower overall gearing, tend to be (with a few notable exceptions) not nearly so badly afflicted.
Will Fiat tell us when the have a fix in place in the factory? Not a hope in hell, but Fiat have employees who have defective motorhomes in Italy and information has been seeping out.

And yes, they are doing it all over Europe - there are similar discussions going on in Italy (where legal action as a group is very likely now), France and Germany that we know about.



Edited by AndyStothert 2008-08-10 7:51 PM
userTracker
Posted: 10 August 2008 8:01 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


It was mentioned on another thread that remapping of the ecu helped alleviate the problem on some Transits which use the same engine, and presumably, the same transmission and engine mounts?

If a reputable engine tuner, chipper or remapper can be found who would be happy to experiment with different torque and power settings maybe an improvement could be found that might at least be enough to prevent gearbox destruction and/or clutch burn out?

If such an expert could be found he might just find that he has a lot of potential customers forming an orderly queue at his door?

If it failed, then you would at least know what it isn't.

Does one of you with an afflicted van have the time and inclination to enquire I wonder.

Just a thought - grasping at straws maybe- but still a thought?
userAndyStothert
Posted: 11 August 2008 3:51 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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The Transit transmission and clutch is a completely different unit - I'm told that nothing is common besides the basic engine lump. And not as much of that as may be imagined.
We are still waiting for confirmation that Peugeot will be starting to fit a lower ratio reverse gear to the 5 speed versions within the next few weeks.
If they actually do this then Fiat will eventually have to do the same on their 5 speed equipped motorcaravans.
Which will leave the majority still without a solution.
usersteamer
Posted: 12 August 2008 9:46 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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hi all,

my swift went to fiat dealer yesterday for brakes etc , we also chucked in the judder for good measure ! , yes i can make it judder if i want to but in saying that when we came home i reversed it some 40 yards up our yard in one go to its spot with no problems .anyway - dealers comments -
judder- charatistics of the vehicle !!, suprise , i was told how to set revs etc etc - when i explained that i am an engineer by trade & would not be taken in by jargon ( to put it mildly ) he somewhat stepped down a peg or two . sensible discussion ensured & he did tell me that they have had no problems with the standard panel vans , something i heard first hand last weekend .His opinion was that there was an imbalance somewhere in the conversion which was putting a strain on engine / power train in some instances
we both agreed that in a normal panel van the weight is kept mostly on the floor & in a smaller footprint as compared to a motorhome whic makes the best of all availble space & also the panel van is a vehicle built before power train fitted .Having previous experience of vehicle body building i would be questioning the chassis to cab connections as this will only act as a hinge . i'm sorry this doesn't answer andy's problem , perhaps as he says he has been unfortunate to have one of a faulty component batch .
I questioned the clutch smell when putting onto ramps to be told that the clutch was ok but if it failed by component breakage i.e spring letting go etc it would be covered but not from burning caused by slipping/riding clutch .I denoted from that comment that the clutch arrangement fitted was to small to cope with application , after all panel vans are generally up to 3.5 tons whereas our vans are 4.25 tons all the time again coming back to the imbalance situation .
I'm not taking any sides here just looking for the problem without getting embroiled in the politics .

steamer
userRayjsj
Posted: 12 August 2008 11:37 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


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The point is, Andy's IS a panel van conversion, and it looks like i'ts going to have to have two gearboxes under warranty, if it was faulty components i'm sure they would have been changed as a matter of course during the replacement ?? I still think the 'use high revs and slip the clutch' instruction is a recipe for many burnt-out clutches which are NOT covered by warranty. At the very least reduced clutch life. which would be passed on to some unsuspecting 2nd owner.
Some of the money spent on 2 page adverts promoting the new Sevel chassis should be used in treating THEIR existing customers Fairly. AND solving the problem.
userAndyStothert
Posted: 12 August 2008 6:00 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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There is good news today - from Peugeot.

They have stated categorically that they will be taking steps to cure the juddering on all the Peugeot models affected.
The first step will be to re-map the ECU and then if that doesn't cure the problem they will change reverse gear for one of a lower ratio.
The gear ratio change will be avialable from some time in December (ish) but the ECU changes are due to start as soon as can be arranged.
All production vehicles from January 09 onwards will be fitted with a lower ratio reverse gear.
Only those who complain will get anything done, so if you have a Peugeot and haven't yet made an official complaint then get to it - if only for the sake of whoever may buy the van in years to come.
Hopefully Fiat will follow suit, but their behaviour so far doesn't suggest that they will do it honourably or willingly.
userItexuk
Posted: 12 August 2008 6:44 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


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Have booked my Fiat x250 in for a service next week and been told there is 5 recalls to be done. They said one of them is a re- map of the ECU to try and stop judder.

Edited by Itexuk 2008-08-12 6:45 PM
userBob Elswood
Posted: 12 August 2008 7:06 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


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Thought about upgrading my camper van maybe next year.

( I have a Peugeot Boxer 2.00 Ltr HDI base)

After reading about all the problems with the new models I won't touch them with a barge pole!!

Guess it will be a Mercedes Sprinter in future or anything other than Peugeot or Fiat!!
userniton
Posted: 12 August 2008 9:36 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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I have had the ECU upgrade carried out to my Motorhome, (Pilote P690FG on a Fiat 3L 160 multijet) and the only difference I noticed was an increase in fuel consumption.
Peter.
userPSHORT
Posted: 13 August 2008 8:46 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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Aside from the juddering problem(has the recall work cured it??!!) how did you check your mpg? Has anyone compared mpg results from the onboard computer and working it out manually. I have twice and to my figures the computer is optimistic by a worrying amount 20mpg/29mpg. Perhaps this should be a new thread. I will repeat on our next trip in a couple of weeks.
This on a 3l 160 is certainly no better (maybe worse) than my old 2.8l. Both panel van conversions.
userMelvin
Posted: 13 August 2008 9:45 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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It would appear we are now begining to make an affect. My dealer has told me, they now check their motorhomes in reverse. I wonder why?

As regard revising the reverse gear ratio, due to the credit crunch and the adverse publicity. There is a very large stockpile of unconverted powertrains at both Fiat and the coachbuiders, it will some time after Jan 09 before we see the revision.

userAndyStothert
Posted: 13 August 2008 5:36 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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Peugeot's decision to come clean is a bit late but at least they have put owners minds at rest as to the long term future of their motorhomes.
Even if they do, in a very roundabout manner, admit that they are still being produced in defective state.
With stockpiles as they are at both the manufacturers and converters the first of the modified new vehicles converted will probably not appear until April next year, so it seesm safe to say that buying one until then there will be a good chance of getting a duffer.

At least if you buy a Peugeot they will sort it out, but as things stand, with Fiat still denying a fault exists, buying a Fiat based motorhome new until at least April would be a very risky investment.
usercolin
Posted: 13 August 2008 8:16 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


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Copied from RandM's thread

Yes we have the judder. The van has recently been for a service as it is 12 months old. The Fiat servicing manager put the following on the invoice "Judder in reverse. Road tested & found to be the normal shudder in reverse, common to this model, at this moment in time there is no way we can improve it.
It is an Adria Twin 120 3.3 tn. so that we have only one further year of vehicle warranty.(MMM Motorhome Matters Aug) The above may well be of some value and it was obtained thanks to MMM editorials which are very much appreciated.
I was recently told by an engineer with many years experience of Fiat vans that with this new model the ratio of the reverse gear has been increased. With the experience Ferrari and Maserati etc. to call on you would think that Fiat would do better, but this might be exactly what has happened. Peugot have also similar sources and evidently they all find their way to Sevel.
You would expect errors to be sorted out with new versions, but think about water drainage under the windscreen. We had this several years ago with a coachbuilt Pilote (but not with a subsequent Pilote A class. Well you wouldn't would you).
So where does this leave us. I can't believe that only 300 people are involved. I would have thought 3000 would be nearer the mark. The cost of replacing the judder (with a new one) I am told is about £500 and evidently the reason for Fiat's reluctance to do anything. Only two have been changed locally I understand one of which was the result of a young chap getting into the family motorhome and getting it stuck in grass. He had then revved and revved digging a larger and larger hole.
It is good to see on this Forum that there may be a move by Peugot.
So how can Fiat be encouraged to cure the problem for us. MMM are doing a first class job but they must obviously keep within tactful limits which they most certainly do.
A lawyer is not likely to want to handle claims for £500 but Fiat might take notice if there were 3000 or so and legal expenses of £1000 per time were to be expected. A lawyer might well gain a lot from an advertisement in MMM with a variety of cases coming from motorhomers. A half page might do readers and the lawyer a lot of good.
It has been mentioned that we should expect to receive something suitable for the purpose for the not inconsiderable sums expended. This is so but only applies between buyer and seller, i.e. motorhome owner and their vendor (dealer). The chain from here to Fiat is through the converter and each dealer would have to be sufficiently interested to persue the matter and the same with the converter. Direct action with Fiat is what is needed I would hope that a way can be found.
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 13 August 2008 10:07 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


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Hmmmm!  I wonder if Fiat will have a stand at the NEC?  I also wonder whether the judderers united might be persuaded to all turn up together and, in the way of these things, I just wonder some more if national and local TV were told there might be a bit of fun, and were suitably briefed beforehand, and offered a juddering demonstration, whether they might arrive and film it all and ask if Fiat had any comment?  Just wondering, that's all! 
useryeti
Posted: 14 August 2008 12:36 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


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Brian I believ there are rumblings about a represenation to FIAT if they are at the NEC. What would lose it if there were some hot heads in that group,out to cause trouble.
The situation with the Transit has given me some thoughts. Was this engine originally designed for rear wheel drive. I remember a bus producer building a front wheel drive vehicle using a Land Rover engine and within 6 months of use the transmission failed,I don't know if they had juddering.
The firm was Omni.
userDerek Uzzell
Posted: 14 August 2008 3:14 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


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Yeti:

The 2.0litre motor fitted to Year 2000-2006 Transits was intended for FWD models only and is quite different to the the 2.4litre powerplant fitted to RWD Transits. Year 2006-onwards FWD Transits have a 2.2litre engine that's essentially an increased-capacity version of the 2.0litre. A variant of the 2.2litre motor is also fitted to the lower-powered models in the current Boxer/Ducato/Relay ranges.

Not sure what you mean by "the situation with the Transit". Are you under the impression that the juddering characteristic also afflicts Transit? Because that's not the case.

Mk 6 and Mk 7 Transits (FWD and RWD) have been generally criticised for being stall-prone when moving off and (in Brian Kirby's FWD Hobby's case) for having an all-or-nothing accelerator response. I think it has been suggested on this forum that ECU re-mapping might improve matters, and I believe there have been Ford-dealer remaps carried out on RWD vehicles as part of the Transit's normal development process during the last 8 years, but I'm pretty sure there's been no Ford-approved remapping of FWD Transits.

I doubt if ECU remapping would do much good anyway, as my own feeling is that (on Transit FWDs) the tendency to stall and the lack of accelerator sensitivity are largely due respectively to the high 1st gear and the crappy accelerator design.
useryeti
Posted: 16 August 2008 9:43 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


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Derek
I was prompted to consider this due to the fact that the engine fitted to my 3litre Fiat is the same as that used by Ford. In fact they are produced in a factory in Milan and also badged out as Iveco units.
userTracker
Posted: 16 August 2008 6:00 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


I see from page 37 of this month's MMM that the DJ Johnnie Walker has bought a new Fiat based Autotrail Cheyenne from Chelston Motorhomes.

It is pointless talking to Chelston because they very much play down the reversing issue but maybe a high profile figure like a Radio two DJ might be a good guy to have on board for the fight?

userMel B
Posted: 16 August 2008 6:30 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


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But someone needs to tell Johnnie Walker that he might have a problem in reverse ... anyone know how best to get a message through to him????
userPSHORT
Posted: 16 August 2008 9:33 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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Re Johnnie Walker I have sent an e-mail to his Radio 2 e-mail suggesting he checks out this website
useryeti
Posted: 16 August 2008 11:16 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


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I also sent an email to Johnnie a few weeks ago,apart from you I wonder who else.
I also wrote to Watchdog.
userPSHORT
Posted: 17 August 2008 8:49 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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I thought he(Johnnie W) had in fact bought his M/Home some time ago, one wonders did he get your e-mail, if so before or after he purchased, he is mechanically so-minded I believe so one would think he is aware of the problems.
In my e-mail yesterday I forgot to mention water leaks only the juddering so if anyone further sends to him perhaps add just 'a dash of water' to the JOHNNIE WALKER!
userTracker
Posted: 17 August 2008 10:43 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


PSHORT - 2008-08-17 8:49 AM

I thought he(Johnnie W) had in fact bought his M/Home some time ago, one wonders did he get your e-mail, if so before or after he purchased, he is mechanically so-minded I believe so one would think he is aware of the problems.
In my e-mail yesterday I forgot to mention water leaks only the juddering so if anyone further sends to him perhaps add just 'a dash of water' to the JOHNNIE WALKER!


I did exactly that last night and also referred him to both Andy and to Rachel Stothert at Warners as well as the MMM and OAL websites.

Whether the BBC will allow these emails through is another matter though and we could do with a more direct method of approach.

Edited by Tracker 2008-08-17 10:45 AM
usercolin
Posted: 17 August 2008 8:40 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


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I emailed him back in may about it, proboly thought I was some kind of nutcase, wonder if he's had any judder since, keep your eye out for any new member called johnny or dj
userTracker
Posted: 18 August 2008 12:37 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Over the last 20 years I have had a number of Sevel based vans starting with a Talbot Express in 1986 and ending with a Ducato 2.3 jtd now.

They have all WITHOUT EXCEPTION given me good, reliable, dependable service and all have done exactly what it says on the tin.

I have no doubt that once Fiat get this latest van sorted it will do the same.

Shame the same cannot be said of Fiat, Peugeot or Citroen dealers who are best avoided once out of warranty.
userMelvin
Posted: 18 August 2008 2:08 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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I just returned from my motorhome agent aftercare (nightmare), amongst other problems, I vocally raised the question about my transmissin judder in a very busy recption.

All of a sudden they became intrestest in my complaint. They asked if Justin had been in contact with me, you all know the answer to that question.

In addition to the standard letters you have all recieved from Fiat, I have letter from trading standards in regards the motorhome dealer and the Fiat garage which inspected the motorhome. ' It seems that they are unable to find the cause for the SHUDDERING and therefore, unable to assist in a remedy'.

Trading standards, ' however the traders are not willing to negotiate because of the PRESS RELEASE issued.
userMelvin
Posted: 18 August 2008 2:33 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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I just would kike to add, whilst at my dealer today, they let slip another case on their books, a new Fiat X250 Autorail Scout.

Andy I think the new owners will be contacting you in the very near future.
userColinC
Posted: 19 August 2008 5:58 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
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Last week Andy Stothert posted on both this forum and MHF a message to the effect that Peugeot accepted that that they need to make changes to the ECU and reverse gear to resolve the reversing judder. I raised the question on MHF as to whether, bearing in mind that some (all?) of the engines installed by Peugeot were different from the Fiat units, the same or different gearboxes were installed by Peugeot and Fiat. I asked if anyone had this information. Interestingly there has been no response. Does anyone on this forum know? If the gearboxes are indeed the same (including the same ratios for reverse gear) then the hopes for a fix from Fiat might be higher than if the gearboxes/ratios are different?

Colin
usercolin
Posted: 19 August 2008 6:52 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


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The Pug fix is for 5 speed box, have you got that or 6 speed?
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