rupert123 Posted April 7, 2011 Share Posted April 7, 2011 rolandrat - 2011-04-07 4:09 PM The brand new motorhome that I was interested in was road tested by me at Discovery Leisure, I rejected it because of what I considered to be a bad JUDDER and gearbox whine. I then went along to my local Fiat garage with the chassis number and asked an employee I knew to run the chassis number through the computer to see if it had been modifide, this he did and said that there was a recall on it concerning the gearbox so then I rang the dealer back and he arranged to have the recall done. It was whilst it was at the Fiat garage that I asked if it had been modified and they said it had and that they weren't prepared to do any further work on it so I rang the dealer and said that I was no longer interested in it. As I have mentioned before, I am not interested in paying a lot of money for what I consider to be not to be up to a standard required. If anyone goes along to a showroom and sign's up for an expensive motorhome without roadtesting it, fool them. This was brand new and unregistered, a 2.3. My present one is a 3.0 manual which is trouble free probably because it is a Tracker EKS and very light so I can talk with a little knowledge about the X250 and even if I had little knowledge, to me a gearbox and clutch should be able to reverse without shaking the motorhome to bits no matter what make it was. Roland no offence intended but still find this strange. I repeat why would a new van have any record of modifications when the new gearbox has been around for quite some time. I can only assume the dealer had this van in stock for a very long time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted April 7, 2011 Share Posted April 7, 2011 rolandrat - 2011-04-07 4:13 PM Rupart123, What sort of motorhome do you own? 2008 Swift Sundance which I have had from new, did not test, it had not been built so difficult and no problems at all from the Fiat side. Did have a sticking step on the hab site but quickly sorted out by dealer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolandrat Posted April 7, 2011 Author Share Posted April 7, 2011 Henry, this is the chassis number ZFA 25000001770390 J Fiats head office number is 01753 511431 so if you have any further doubts you can go straight to the horses mouth. What is your current motorhome? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolandrat Posted April 7, 2011 Author Share Posted April 7, 2011 Henry, Is your Sundance the 2.2 5speed or the 2.3 6 speed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesFrance Posted April 7, 2011 Share Posted April 7, 2011 rolandrat - 2011-04-07 5:46 PM Henry, this is the chassis number ZFA 25000001770390 J Fiats head office number is 01753 511431 so if you have any further doubts you can go straight to the horses mouth. What is your current motorhome? That does sound like old stock as the one I am buying has a chassis no. ending 1855158. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolandrat Posted April 7, 2011 Author Share Posted April 7, 2011 I was assured by Autotrail, Discovery Leisure and Fiat that it was the latest chassis but I would say to anyone, don't be fooled, ROAD TEST FIRST. I and many others want to see documented evidence that the gearbox has been redesigned and is now being fitted. I DOUBT THAT VERY MUCH. What has been done without a doubt is the engine mountings have been beefed up to stop the engine bouncing around under the bonnet so now you can increase the rev's and reverse without as much JUDDER. All along Fiat have been saying that there isn't a modification for the 3.0 engine. Why? Because that model is already fitted with heavy duty mountings from new and it develops a huge amount of power whereas the 2.3 has been remapped to cut down the JUDDER. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesFrance Posted April 7, 2011 Share Posted April 7, 2011 If you look in the Ducato brochure you will see that the 2.3 is now fitted with a lower reverse gear than first, whereas the others are not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corky 8 Posted April 7, 2011 Share Posted April 7, 2011 After buying a then new 2008 2.3 (spit) Fiat based Motorhome, and going through all the Modification,s available ,I felt it still wasn't right it still Juddered, then it suffering a fuel valve failure while touring north of Scotland ,after Finding out it was at that time unrepairable by the (Spit) Fiat Agent, as no Parts were available in the country, so limping home I made the decision it had to go, two week later when a new valve had been fitted I sold it to a dealer,Loosing quite a lot of money, but gaining Peace of Mind,.... Common Sense installed I bought a Merc based Autotrail, Boy am I a Happy beaver, .........a big Yes. would I buy another (spit) Fiat.NOOOOO sooner have my Ar*e rubbed with a house brick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolandrat Posted April 7, 2011 Author Share Posted April 7, 2011 Corky, I admire your spirit and you are dead right in what you say. My previous motorhome was a Mercedes and was 100% perfect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolandrat Posted April 7, 2011 Author Share Posted April 7, 2011 Is that the chassis cab brochure relevant to motorhomes or the one for van derived campers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesFrance Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 rolandrat - 2011-04-07 9:40 PM Is that the chassis cab brochure relevant to motorhomes or the one for van derived campers? It says it is for "Ducato Vans – Glazed and partly glazed vans – Trucks". It gives for 100 Multijet First 3.727 : 1, Reverse 3.154 : 1 120 Multijet First 3.727 : 1, Reverse 4.083 : 1 160 Multijet First 4.167 : 1, Reverse 4.083 : 1 The 100 has a lower final ratio at 4.933 : 1 but the other two are the same at 4.222 : 1. The Maxi also showing a lower final drive ratio than the others, much lower in the case of the 120 Maxi. I would imagine that that would apply to panel van conversions, I see no reason why they would use a higher reverse ratio for motorhomes either. I tried to attach the pdf but the forum rejected it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolandrat Posted April 8, 2011 Author Share Posted April 8, 2011 Thanks for that James, all we all want on here is clarification of the true facts of the Fiat transmissions and I for one is the first to admit that I am not an expert so common sense has to prevail, I can only pass on what limited knowledge I collect along the way so here goes, bear with me. According to your information you say that the 100 engine has a ratio : 3.727 reverse is 3.154 clearly lower isn't it, then we go onto the 120 engine which is : 3.727.1 reverse is 4.831, clearly higher not lower isn't it, then we go onto the 160 engine which is 4.167 and reverse is 4.831, clearly higher not lower. So where does lead us, you say the latest x250's are lower. well one definately is, the 100 always has been but the 2.3 and 3.0 are quite clearly not so where do we go on from here. I rest my case. Roland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 rolandrat - 2011-04-08 10:15 AM Thanks for that James, all we all want on here is clarification of the true facts of the Fiat transmissions and I for one is the first to admit that I am not an expert so common sense has to prevail, I can only pass on what limited knowledge I collect along the way so here goes, bear with me. According to your information you say that the 100 engine has a ratio : 3.727 reverse is 3.154 clearly lower isn't it, then we go onto the 120 engine which is : 3.727.1 reverse is 4.831, clearly higher not lower isn't it, then we go onto the 160 engine which is 4.167 and reverse is 4.831, clearly higher not lower. So where does lead us, you say the latest x250's are lower. well one definately is, the 100 always has been but the 2.3 and 3.0 are quite clearly not so where do we go on from here. I rest my case. Roland. Afraid you cannot rest your case Roland, you have got things the wrong way around, think about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesFrance Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 Yes that is correct because the top gear ratios are all less than 1.000. I downloaded the brochure from here: http://www.fiatprofessional.co.uk/uk/Brochures It appears to be dated February 2009. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesFrance Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 I just found an interesting window on fiatcamper.com and I will try to post a snapshot. I am wondering whether the problems are specific to the 130 hp motorhome engines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolandrat Posted April 8, 2011 Author Share Posted April 8, 2011 There is no doubt in my mind about a crown wheel and pinion because I once changed a diff on a wagon which was 4.5 to 1 and screemed its head off at 55mph so I bought a 3.99 to 1 and put it in and it then did 70mph just cruising along improving the fuel consumption no end. As regards these latest figures for the gearboxes and my own personal experience of owning one and running it, it definately has a higher reverse gear than first so I'm sticking to my conclusion right or wrong that the 2.3 is still fitted with a higher reverse gear than first. HELP, HELP, I'M SINKING FAST. Go easy on me folks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 rolandrat - 2011-04-08 1:34 PM There is no doubt in my mind about a crown wheel and pinion because I once changed a diff on a wagon which was 4.5 to 1 and screemed its head off at 55mph so I bought a 3.99 to 1 and put it in and it then did 70mph just cruising along improving the fuel consumption no end. As regards these latest figures for the gearboxes and my own personal experience of owning one and running it, it definately has a higher reverse gear than first so I'm sticking to my conclusion right or wrong that the 2.3 is still fitted with a higher reverse gear than first. HELP, HELP, I'M SINKING FAST. Go easy on me folks. Roland these figures are for the lastest box and you seem to have answered your own question with the diff bit. If first is 3.7 and reverse is 4.8 the reverse ratio is lower. I will explain in full if you wish but am sure you can work it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 JamesFrance - 2011-04-08 11:52 AM I just found an interesting window on fiatcamper.com and I will try to post a snapshot. I am wondering whether the problems are specific to the 130 hp motorhome engines. nope 130hp is Fiat only, both Pug and citreon vans will judder under certain conditions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolandrat Posted April 9, 2011 Author Share Posted April 9, 2011 Henry, you are 100% right, ratios are ratios the difference being the diff is the final drive to the wheels and the gearbox cogs interact with one another via imput,layshafts and final drives to link with the pinion and crown wheel then onto the road wheels. What we have been highlighting on this forum is that the reverse gears on the 2.3 and 3.0 litres are higher than the first gear but not on the lowly 2.2 with the five speed box. The five speed box, to my knowledge, has never suffered with a reverse gear judder. One way to highlight the problem is to park on a level road and select first gear and increase the engine revs to 1200, you should be able to pull away smoothly, then stop and put it in reverse, apply 1200 revs and see what happens. You don't need to find a hill to highlight the problem. When brochure specs are quoted we don't just want the reverse gear ratios we want the first gear ratios as well then you can tell the difference. If the latest x250 has been fitted with revised gears then why wasn't it published in the motorhome magazines to stop all this bickering long ago. I road tested a new unregistered 2.3 mtorhome at Discovery Leisure and was assurred by Fiat head office and the local Fiat garage that it was the latest chassis and that all the latest modifications had been carried out. On the road test I stopped on a SLIGHT hill and put it in reverse and to my surprise it shook and juddered and whined its head off so how can Fiat say that every thing is now honky dory. I am far from being convinced. It has also been pointed out that the chassis number I quoted was an old one but what must be considered that vans and chassis cabs are produced on different lines and no doubt more vans than chassis cabs are sold in the market place so I have to believe Autotrail when they tell me its supposed to be the upgraded chassis. When I have time next week I'll call in the local IVECO van and truck garage and ask for a specification brochure and maybe talk to the service manager he will have more knowledge than a small set up. I'm in the market for a new one but I have no intention of buying trouble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesFrance Posted April 9, 2011 Share Posted April 9, 2011 rolandrat - 2011-04-09 11:54 AM What we have been highlighting on this forum is that the reverse gears on the 2.3 and 3.0 litres are higher than the first gear but not on the lowly 2.2 with the five speed box. . Roland you still have this the wrong way round, the 2.3 reverse gear is about 10% lower that first. It is the 2.2 which has the high reverse gear. Whether this makes any difference I have no idea. What I cannot understand is why it only seems to be motorcaravanners who have had the problem. I do wonder if the drivers have anything to do with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted April 9, 2011 Share Posted April 9, 2011 JamesFrance - 2011-04-09 11:34 AM [ I do wonder if the drivers have anything to do with it. After all the years of going backwards (carefully !!) and fowards on this subject, we appear to have gone the full circle and are BACK to blaming the drivers again !!! Fiat have already tried that one ! right at the start. AND I STILL don't believe it. *-) Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted April 9, 2011 Share Posted April 9, 2011 I agree Ray - up to a point! I have been driven by drivers so bad they could make an automatic Rolls Royce judder going forwards - let alone reverse a badly designed manual Fiat van! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolandrat Posted April 9, 2011 Author Share Posted April 9, 2011 Ray, I agree with you entirely,I like you have driven every kind of HGV on the road throughout my working life, I am now 68 years old and have just passed my HGV medical again as I still work driving 44 TON ADR road tankers. It would help if the first gear ratios were quoted as well, they must be in that brochure if the reverse ones are quoted. I have searched my desk but have obviously thrown mine away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1footinthegrave Posted April 9, 2011 Share Posted April 9, 2011 I have a PVC LWB 2.8 Jtd, it too judders in reverse unless you are very careful, my solution, avoid reversing wherever possible. But here's the thing mine is a 2003 van, my previous PX van was a 2002, that did as well, so was I unlucky with both. Mind you if I upgrade to the newer model I'll be used to it. :-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted April 9, 2011 Share Posted April 9, 2011 Ours is a 2.2 hdi Peugeot and if I'm not careful, or I drive carelessly, I too can induce judder in reverse. However like most of the other experienced drivers on here I can also easily reverse without judder. The point seems to be that many drivers who did not suffer from judder in older vans - or if they did they kept quiet about it - found themselves unable to reverse the X250 smoothly due to the overly high reverse gear ratio. Without doubt in some cases driver training and experience should help but, having tried a couple of 'em myself, I'm equally convinced that with some vans even the best driver in the world would struggle. Surely the point is that on an expensive bit of recently designed kit this is an issue that should never be - but still Fiat lie and continue to produce suspect vans and we - well some of us - are not helping our own cause by continuing to buy them new and s/h. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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