mike 202 Posted April 13, 2011 Share Posted April 13, 2011 DJP - 2011-04-12 7:48 PM The motorhome cab market to Fiat is very small in the global market compared to white van man. It was him the van was made. Not us. So are you saying that all of the advertising that Fiat made with regard to "A Special chassis made for motorhomes" was totally misleading. As far as I know a Chassis includes the cab, running gear engine and gearbox. And yes I did have a Fiat X250 (Solely because of their advert claims) based coachbuilt from new and returned it to the dealer after 3 months. Luckily he valued me as a current and future customer and took the Vehicle as part exchange back provided I bought another new vehicle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJP Posted April 13, 2011 Share Posted April 13, 2011 mike 202 - 2011-04-13 9:55 AM DJP - 2011-04-12 7:48 PM The motorhome cab market to Fiat is very small in the global market compared to white van man. It was him the van was made. Not us. So are you saying that all of the advertising that Fiat made with regard to "A Special chassis made for motorhomes" was totally misleading. As far as I know a Chassis includes the cab, running gear engine and gearbox. . So are you saying that all of the advertising that Fiat made with regard to "A Special chassis made for motorhomes" was totally misleading. NO I am not. I am saying the mechanical side e.g. engine, running gear and gearbox is the same for motorhome and white van man. What Fiat claim is "A Special chassis made for motorhomes" IS correct. This in no way affects the running gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJP Posted April 13, 2011 Share Posted April 13, 2011 rupert123 Just to clarify your statement The reverse in the 2.3, I have no experience of the 3 ltr, was to high but it has been modified and having driven a new I assume you mean the 2.3 gearbox has been modified on new vans? The 3.0 ltr box whether it be from a 2007 model or a current model, it does have exactly the same gearbox. Only the clutch material has changed due to ongoing product development. (Ongoing product development.= clever way of saying replacing a faulty product without acknowledging the product was faulty in the first place). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted April 13, 2011 Share Posted April 13, 2011 DJP - 2011-04-13 10:15 AM rupert123 Just to clarify your statement The reverse in the 2.3, I have no experience of the 3 ltr, was to high but it has been modified and having driven a new I assume you mean the 2.3 gearbox has been modified on new vans? The 3.0 ltr box whether it be from a 2007 model or a current model, it does have exactly the same gearbox. Only the clutch material has changed due to ongoing product development. (Ongoing product development.= clever way of saying replacing a faulty product without acknowledging the product was faulty in the first place). Correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aultymer Posted April 13, 2011 Share Posted April 13, 2011 Sorry to everyone for the digresion but the Rupert has asked specific question! I have driven a borrowed pre X250 Fiat for a 2 week wander through Yorkshire, a 1990 MB based Hymer, exploring from Harris to the north of Denmark via France and the Hartz mountains and lastly my present MB auto based Rapido, which has toured round the north coast of UK mainland and over Alpine passes to Venice and back. The old Fiat only juddered when turning a hairpin on a 1 in 4 bend, the other 2 have never juddered and I invite you to try to make the Rapido judder - if you can I will donate £1000 to the charity of your choice. I just do not accept that, within normal operating conditions, ' any van can be made to judder" as you claim. I suggest you look on the 'Fact' site for up to date complaints about Fiat clutches destroying themselves. Your comment that you 'simply implied some coped better than others' is so disingenuous to hardly merit a reply. By your implication 'some coped worse than others' therefore it was their fault! I know of at least one Fiat based van which was sucessfully rejected but with such onerous gagging clauses that I am not at all surprised that we don't hear of more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted April 13, 2011 Share Posted April 13, 2011 aultymer - 2011-04-13 10:56 AM Sorry to everyone for the digresion but the Rupert has asked specific question! I have driven a borrowed pre X250 Fiat for a 2 week wander through Yorkshire, a 1990 MB based Hymer, exploring from Harris to the north of Denmark via France and the Hartz mountains and lastly my present MB auto based Rapido, which has toured round the north coast of UK mainland and over Alpine passes to Venice and back. The old Fiat only juddered when turning a hairpin on a 1 in 4 bend, the other 2 have never juddered and I invite you to try to make the Rapido judder - if you can I will donate £1000 to the charity of your choice. I just do not accept that, within normal operating conditions, ' any van can be made to judder" as you claim. I suggest you look on the 'Fact' site for up to date complaints about Fiat clutches destroying themselves. Your comment that you 'simply implied some coped better than others' is so disingenuous to hardly merit a reply. By your implication 'some coped worse than others' therefore it was their fault! I know of at least one Fiat based van which was sucessfully rejected but with such onerous gagging clauses that I am not at all surprised that we don't hear of more. OK we will agree to differ but will say the Fiat problem was with reverse, strange thing to do driving the old Fiat around a hairpin in reverse. Have just looked on MHF, where this all died a death a long time ago, and not a single mention of a 2.3 with new gearbox or one with modifications done burning a clutch or breaking a gearbox. I would remind you this thread was started about vans produced recently and my answers reflected this. The van you know off that was rejected will also be an early model of x250. We all acknowledge their have been some problems in the past but the recent questions on here have all been about the situation now, not the past, why can you and others not just accept that. It may be you like to live in the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aultymer Posted April 13, 2011 Share Posted April 13, 2011 The 'old Fiat' was juddering going forward - my attempt to lighten the mood - most front wheel drive vans will 'skip' a bit on steep hairpins! Read the thread about slipping clutches on the other place. Although the thread started months ago there are reports (yesterday) of NEW vans burning clutches and/ or warping flywheels and of course not covered in the warranty. The exploding gearboxes are an older, pre judder problem. You just can't get the designers these days (well not in Italy). And don't even ask about the poor guys stuck with 3Litre engines who are told that their vans are fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted April 13, 2011 Share Posted April 13, 2011 aultymer - 2011-04-13 3:34 PM The 'old Fiat' was juddering going forward - my attempt to lighten the mood - most front wheel drive vans will 'skip' a bit on steep hairpins! Read the thread about slipping clutches on the other place. Although the thread started months ago there are reports (yesterday) of NEW vans burning clutches and/ or warping flywheels and of course not covered in the warranty. The exploding gearboxes are an older, pre judder problem. You just can't get the designers these days (well not in Italy). And don't even ask about the poor guys stuck with 3Litre engines who are told that their vans are fine. No still cannot find this thread. their was a bit about the 3ltr, which I have said several times have no knowledge of, but even this was about a 2007 van, not new and new clutch setup for the 3ltr. The gearbox going on the 2.3 is not a pre judder problem and happened on a few early 2.3 X250. The only clutch component not covered by Fiat warrenty is the plate not unusual. Please try and pay attention, I AM TALKING ABOUT THE 2.3 X250. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldlowie Posted April 13, 2011 Share Posted April 13, 2011 Tracker - 2011-04-10 2:32 PM Now I may well have missed the postings from owners of smaller engined vans telling us that their vans are perfect and I for one would welcome seeing a few of those as a confidence booster. Hi Tracker, consider your confidence boosted :-D I have a PVC on the "lowly" Peugeot 2.2 - 120bhp with the the 6-speed 'box. Had it 6 months, take it out twice a month, and have to reverse slowly up my fairly steep dog-legged drive. Done 2000 miles, and try as I might I can't get the thing to judder >:-) I'll try again after the Easter break :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted April 14, 2011 Share Posted April 14, 2011 I picked up our new 2.3 6 speed Adria SP in Germany on Monday and have spent 3 days in it, returning this morning on an early eurotunnel.....I only had the opportunity to try and reverse it on some small hills when I picked it up, and more challenging ones this morning near my home. I am happy to say not one sign of a judder or anything! the vehicle behaves impeccably :D I must say the downsize from a coachbuilt which I did worry about has proved to be an excellent move...3 days living in it have confirmed it is the right thing for us.The Adria is a beautifully finished and comfortable van, and Mrs Mental is well happy with the downsize as well (always a concern*-)). It is much easier to drive and the dark wood adds a bit of class..............I am a very happy camper, thankful to be shot of that hulking great coachbuilt! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bolero boy Posted April 14, 2011 Share Posted April 14, 2011 Slightly(!) off topic but how does the Adria fare in the 'winterisation stakes' compared to your Euramobil? Generally they are not as well insulated but from a Continental manufacturer......? Rgds, Chris. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted April 14, 2011 Share Posted April 14, 2011 aultymer - 2011-04-13 3:34 PM Although the thread started months ago there are reports (yesterday) of NEW vans burning clutches and/ or warping flywheels and of course not covered in the warranty. The exploding gearboxes are an older, pre judder problem. You just can't get the designers these days (well not in Italy). And don't even ask about the poor guys stuck with 3Litre engines who are told that their vans are fine. (1) Threads about X250 reverse gear problems started 4 years ago, (2) Gearbox damage requiring replacement and 'Judder' happened at the same time, (X250 again). The reason for all the forum dissention, and some saying 'there is NO problem' is that the fault wasn't 'Across the board' some lucky ones never had a problem. BUT a lot did (Andy Stothert's figures of well over 100 is enough for me.) and you are correct about the 3 litre (manual) owners, they HAVE been left with no recourse (except legal). as Fiat say there IS NO problem. Probably because the 'Comfortmatic' semi-auto doesn't seem to suffer from the fault (although i do wonder how many Clutches and Dual mass Flywheels have been replaced under warranty (these ARE covered in an Automatic gearbox set-up) as in these cases the Driver cannot be blamed for causing the failure. All in All not a 'Happy situation' for someone looking to buy a 'New' motorhome based on one of these base vehicles at £40,000 plus. before parting with my cash I would require a signed document from the dealer stating that any Gearbox/ clutch/Flywheel failure in the first three years would be COMPLETELY covered by THEM. Not Fiat. as obviously Fiat aftersales service cannot be relied on in THIS matter. :-S Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted April 14, 2011 Share Posted April 14, 2011 bolero boy - 2011-04-14 10:43 AM Slightly(!) off topic but how does the Adria fare in the 'winterisation stakes' compared to your Euramobil? Generally they are not as well insulated but from a Continental manufacturer......? Rgds, Chris. Not very well I should think? I miss the double floor/underfloor heating for sure on a chilly morning, but then we never really used the Eura in depth of winter so again it was wasted on us..Its been cold at night this week and van was very comfortable, heating in the morning very efficient and cosy in 10 mins or so...... but what I definitely wont miss is associated coachbuilt damp problems....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike88 Posted April 14, 2011 Share Posted April 14, 2011 Welcome to the panel van club Judge. A panel van is not as efficient in weather extremes as a coachbuilt but how many use their vans in the depth of winter? Those who do should buy a coachbuilt. On the question of judder there is a lot of nonense written mainly by people with pre conceived ideas and by those who do not own X250's and may not have kept up to date with the latest position. So again I shall state that since the change of clutch material in 2009 there have been no reported cases of judder that I have been able to find on any X250 (including the 3 litre) except possibly by those with vehicles over 4 tonnes. Admitedly, that is not ideal but that is the position and may or may not suggest that there is still a problem. Now I'm not going to go over old ground again but all I ask is for people to stick to the facts. Obviously if there are any X250 owners with problems please post their comments here. For example: Has anybody in a sub 3.5 tonne vehicle experienced clutch judder in a modified 2.3? Has anybody experienced clutch judder in a 3 litre sub 3.5 tonne vehicle manufactured post 2009? These are the issues that need to be drawn out and not the kind of generalised comments that have appeared on this MAINLY by people who do not own or have not owned a post 2009 X250 vehicle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliB Posted April 14, 2011 Share Posted April 14, 2011 Mike88, A good post. Exactly what we need to hear - who still has problems. Our 2008 2.3 litre 6 speed on the Maxi chassis 4000kg suffered from the judder. Since the modifcations of engine mountings, lower reverse ratio and alternative clutch plate carried out by Fiat in 2009 everything has been fine. After the modifications it felt like a different vehicle to drive. Even smoother in first and second gear. I would be interested to hear if any owners of maxi chassis based vehicles who have had the above mods. are still experiencing problems. Some owners only had the simple fix of revised engine mountings. Our test drives on Ford chassis with big vehicles showed they wallowed on corners giving an unacceptable level of comfort for the rear passengers. Not so with a Fiat chassis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesFrance Posted April 14, 2011 Share Posted April 14, 2011 We are just back from Toulouse having collected our new Adria Twin SP 2.3 and can find nothing wrong with it. We have some awkward reversing up quite a bump to get ours to behind our house in a vineyard. Every Sevel vehicle we have owned has been smoother and quieter than the previous ones and this is no exception. I felt immediately at home behind the wheel, although this is the first left hooker we have had since our Hymer in 1986. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted April 14, 2011 Share Posted April 14, 2011 At long last some sense in all this. I have been saying for over six months now that I have heard no reports of new vehicles or those that have been modified, having had any failures. Been shouted down by the few who continue to bury their heads in the sand or love living in the past, even in the last few days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted April 14, 2011 Share Posted April 14, 2011 JamesFrance - 2011-04-14 3:25 PM We are just back from Toulouse having collected our new Adria Twin SP 2.3 and can find nothing wrong with it. We have some awkward reversing up quite a bump to get ours to behind our house in a vineyard. Every Sevel vehicle we have owned has been smoother and quieter than the previous ones and this is no exception. I felt immediately at home behind the wheel, although this is the first left hooker we have had since our Hymer in 1986. Well thats is two very relieved Adria owners :-D James I remember you saying about lack of reading lights for front passenger seats? mine has a reading light on a flexible stalk for front passenger and another fixed but swival light above table for drivers seat....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesFrance Posted April 14, 2011 Share Posted April 14, 2011 No Judge it wasn't me, but I have the same as you and stars in the sky. We are waiting for it to go dark so we can see all the fancy lighting effects. From the brochure it looked as if there were no lights above the galley but now we see the row of hidden leds. Not used to all this new technology. :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolandrat Posted April 15, 2011 Author Share Posted April 15, 2011 It looks like good news for the van derived shoeboxes so lets hope that the same improvements filter down to the chassis cabs and that my next roadtest will have positive results. It's a great pity that Fiat couldn't go public with a national press anouncement that all the previous transmission problems have now been resolved, or have they. I spoke at length to a stores manager at the local Fiat garage and he told me that of all the mod kits that he ordered for rectification work that they carried out not one kit contained any reverse gears,only shafts bearings and engine mountings. I told him that I was surprised at what he said because I was under the impression that the reverse gear ratios were being changed when the suspect gearboxes were stripped down. Not true he said. Before any one disputes what I was told here is the direct line to ******* (details removed by moderators) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted April 15, 2011 Share Posted April 15, 2011 A bit out of order printing contact details on an open forum of some poor bloke just because he is a Fiat agent....Get a grip and things in perspective, and get Andys details removed?? and as for the shoe box quip. this van is only 600mm/2 feet shorter then the Eura I had, and a good bit narrower (thank God!) and we find the space more then adequate and hardly any real difference..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldlowie Posted April 15, 2011 Share Posted April 15, 2011 rolandrat - 2011-04-15 9:40 AM It looks like good news for the van derived shoeboxes Best thing I ever did, down-sizing to my "lowly 2.2 shoe-box" 8-) You appear to favour offensive words and phrases my friend - not clever on a forum for motorhomers who presumably own beloved 'vans in all manner of shapes/sizes/engines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike88 Posted April 15, 2011 Share Posted April 15, 2011 Rolandrat - with respect who cares about gear ratios and the components used. The key issue is whether modified vehicles and those manufactured post 2009 judder. Everything else is totally irrelevant. There is absolutely no point in arguing the toss over the components used or people speculating that such and such a modification will not work or that modifications made will in time result in clutch and/or gearbox failure. We do not know and we shall never know unless hard evidence is produced so let's stop speculating and deal with facts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike88 Posted April 15, 2011 Share Posted April 15, 2011 Deleted as post was duplicated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted April 15, 2011 Share Posted April 15, 2011 I think that the 'parts used' is important, as it means that with no 'Lower ratio' reverse gear the vehicle won't be able to reverse up a hill properly. Glad that the problem has finally (after 4 years) been fixed ! once and for all. it means it is AT LAST safe to buy a 'New' X250 based motorcaravan or PVC. That just leaves all the ones already 'out there' that never recieved any 'Upgrade' kits etc., and will still be a headache to an unsuspecting buyer, and now without a Fiat warranty. A dealer warranty that INCLUDES the Gearbox and clutch will be an essential 'Extra'. ;-) Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.