Juddergate Again

[Colin Leake]

rolandrat - 2011-05-04 1:39 PM

 

I own a Fiat X250 3ltr manual tracker reg no YJ09AHC, it was purchased brand new from Richard Baldwins in May 2009 having been ordered at the motorhome show in October the previous year. I was advised to go for the 3ltr because of the transmission problem with the 2.3 and I will always be gratefull to the person who gave me that advice. Motorhomes are very expensive pieces of kit and I didn't want to buy a pup. It has been trouble free from day one. I did have to have a minor adjustment to the toilet door but other than that its been fine. My previous one was a Merc Cheyenne. The Fiat 3ltr is in a class of its own and you have to own one to appreciate its refinements. After road testing the 2.3ltr I wouldn't give it a parking space on my property but that is only my opinion.

 

Fancied the 3ltr myself untill I worked out what the effect would be on the weight of the already heavy Auto-Trail Apache 632

[rupert123]

onecal vw - 2011-05-04 4:30 PM

 

So, Are you saying that ALL the old FIAT's with this problem are going to be fixed,,,,,,,,,,, If so great then yes the resale value will be fine,,,,but come on who in their right mind would want one otherwise...

Regards,

Brendan

 

All x250 2.3 litre fiats will be given the fix if asked for and if, of course, it has not been done. As for being in their right mind depends who you talk to. Bearing in mind all have the same gearbox and while the reverse was no doubt a little high the great majority had no problem coping with it. I have a neighbour who has, on an Adria, he knows all about this but has not bothered to have the fix, he see's no need. His is a 2007 and had done around 30,000 miles last time we spoke so will probably be sold on at some time without the fix. Is that a problem well it may be to someone else but it could still be modified. Should this continue to be featured in the forum, of course, if that is what people want to do but try and keep it in perspective. From the noise made on here you get the impression no one wants fiat based vans, no one can sell them any more, they lose value. This is, of course, complete and utter rubbish. The great majority of makers still choose this as a base and whatever the reason for doing this they would not if they could not sell them.

[rupert123]

rolandrat - 2011-05-04 4:17 PM

 

No, I have the manual version and as I have said, it is trouble free.

 

You do surprise me Roland because all the reasons you continue to put forward to avoid the 2.3 apply to the 3ltr manual but more so. Despite a number of complaints Fiat continue to say no problem here. I have no doubt that despite others having problems with it yours is fine but fail to understand when pretty much everyone, now, is saying no problems with the 2.3 you do not believe it Me thinks you speak with forked tongue (lol)

[Mel B]

As far as I'm aware, only Fiats with the problem will be fixed by Fiat if they are reported to them within the warranty period, after that, it is likely to be ... on your (juddering) bike!

 

I would like to know, Rupert, how you know that there are no problems with any 'new' Fiats? You have questioned other people's knowledge/statements, but keeps coming up with your own to the effect that Fiats are fine now ... but I have yet to see any cast iron evidence of this. I'm not looking to be argumentative, but would really like to be able to clarify this situation for all those who own, or are thinking of purchasing, a van vased on the a new (2011) Fiat base with the 2.3 or 3lt manual engines. :-S

 

As for Fords having a high reverse gear, we've had a Mk 6 and now have a Mk 7 and neither of them has given us any problems whatsoever in reverse and we don't have to slip the cluth or go backwards at supersonic speeds either. :-D

[rolandrat]

Rupert123, it's a great pity you can't keep your crass comments to yourself you seem to revel in snide and pathetic remarks.

[rupert123]

Mel B - 2011-05-04 8:54 PM

 

 

 

I would like to know, Rupert, how you know that there are no problems with any 'new' Fiats? You have questioned other people's knowledge/statements, but keeps coming up with your own to the effect that Fiats are fine now ... . :-D

 

I cannot actually recall saying their are no new problems, could be wrong and no doubt you can point me to the post where i said this. What I have said is that the reverse gear problem has been cured, you have surely seen enough posts on here by people clearly stating their new vans are fine. Do you doubt them, has anyone on any forum come out and said their new van is still bad. they do not fit a differant box in every van built they are all the same. Still have it your way, no doubt you have good reason to still question this but cannot imagine what it is.

[rupert123]

rolandrat - 2011-05-04 8:56 PM

 

Rupert123, it's a great pity you can't keep your crass comments to yourself you seem to revel in snide and pathetic remarks.

 

Oh dear, lost the argument have you Roland.

[Mel B]

rupert123 - 2011-05-04 10:17 PM

 

Mel B - 2011-05-04 8:54 PM

 

I would like to know, Rupert, how you know that there are no problems with any 'new' Fiats? You have questioned other people's knowledge/statements, but keeps coming up with your own to the effect that Fiats are fine now ... . :-D

 

I cannot actually recall saying their are no new problems, could be wrong and no doubt you can point me to the post where i said this. What I have said is that the reverse gear problem has been cured, you have surely seen enough posts on here by people clearly stating their new vans are fine. Do you doubt them, has anyone on any forum come out and said their new van is still bad.

 

By your many posts on various threads, you keep saying in one way or another that there isn't a problem, but I've yet to see any cast iron proof, from you or anyone who is an 'expert' that this is now the case.

 

they do not fit a differant box in every van built they are all the same.

 

The same could be said for the judderers too ... some juddered, some didn't and hopefully never will ... but this doesn't mean that the new ones won't either.

 

Still have it your way, no doubt you have good reason to still question this but cannot imagine what it is.

 

As I said originally, this is my reason:

 

I'm not looking to be argumentative, but would really like to be able to clarify this situation for all those who own, or are thinking of purchasing, a van vased on the a new (2011) Fiat base with the 2.3 or 3lt manual engines.

 

No more, no less - just to know undisputably, once and for all.

 

:-S

[onecal]

Yes Mel , I think everyone would like get some clarity on this problem once and for all. If one shudders or judders it's ONE too many. One wonders are they built on this platform because of low unit price.

Regards,

Brendan

[rupert123]

Fair enough Mel and your post is 'fair comment', so will try and put my postion on all this, it means going back a bit. My wife and I decided on a new van back at the later part of 2007 and had ordered a 2.3 engine Swift Sundance. I knew their was a problem with the reverse gear but haveing been involved in the motortrade on and off for years also knew these problems tend to get exagerated somewhat. Their had been no publicited in the national press, and fact still has not been, and at that time no mention in the specialised M/H press so had reason to believe it had indeed been exagerated. I then ran across Andy and spoke to him on the telephone about it all. He told me his experience and this threw a slight doubt so decided to change my order and went for the 2.2 ltr with the five speed box. The base unit, in truth, never figured largely in our van choice anyway so even a slight doubt about it was not a concern simply change it. My wife will not drive the van but I was delighted with the Fiat, having driven both the 2.3 and the 2.2 could detect no great differance in them so all was fine. It is without a shadow of doubt the best van base I have ever driven and have covered ten hour journeys with little fatigue. It has now done 26,000 miles in three years with not a single problem so when the Fiat X250 unit was being rubbished by all, no one at this point saw any differance between the three engine/gearbox units offered, I stood in its defence. I have followed this saga from the start and seen the hysteria, half truths, and plain rubbish that is posted. That the gearbox reverse gear on the 2.3 was to high is beyond doubt but if you look at the reverse gear ratio on the transits this was also very high. Most people coped fine and if you had no cause to reverse up a 1 in 5 slope backwards no problems. No recall was ever done because it was not a safety issue and despite whatever you hear the people who reported a problem was and still is very small in proportion of the numbers of Ducato sold. This does not excuse it in any way but after a very shaky twelve months Fiat gradually got on top of the problem. Despite what anyone thinks the people running these companies are not stupid and they can do without this type of hassel, they also need to get out of these situations as cheaply as possible. If anyone thinks Fiat are alone in this they are very naive, all motor companies will do it. I can quote you dozens of serious problems that have occured a lot more serious than te Fiat one. Anyway their is never a simple instant fix to things like this and Fiat did themselves no good by refusing to acknowledge it at first. When they did it was still not simple so they tried several ways to reduce the effect, judder in itself is not a problem it is the effects it produces that can be. When this did not work they finally introduced a modified reverse gear, this in itself was not simple because it had to fit i the box used at the time. If the repair was carried out in a proper fashion it worked fine, OK some still reported a slight judder but as I have said this in itself is not a problem and as far as I am aware no properly modify box and clutch has had a problem since. This must be considered a success then but despite this some still doubt it, why, we all work with what we have availible and with no evidence to the contrary it must be up to the doubters to come up with something to back their claims. The new gearbox was introduced sometime in 2010, unfortunatly the actual date is in some doubt. As their have to my knowledge been no reported problems at all, indeed only praise from owners, we have to accept all is now fine. OK some do not but you cannot simply continue to throw doubt without something to back it up, this is plain daft. Their may be a few older base vehicles hanging around in the M/H suppliers works but personally I would doubt this and even if their are they will have the modified gearbox so on all the available evidence no problem. I have said I feel this thread should be kept going just in case their are a few older 2007/2008 2.3 that have not been done but please keep some reality in your comments.

 

I hope this explains my position on this which I will continue to hold unless some firm evidence comes up to change it. To all those who continue to say they would not buy a Fiat under any circumstances fine but this attitude is called 'cutting off your nose to spite your face'. The modern base be it Fiat or Ford is a differant animal from any pre 2007 base in every way, so much better to drive it simply cannot be compared. I have no wish to offend and have never used abusive langauge but simply say what I think. If a differant opinion offends anyone sorry but will not change my approach. To people like Roland who seems to be offended then tough, look at your own posts and tell me where I am wrong. I will not mind but will answer if you come up with something to answer. I note Roland does not or cannot answer any of the questions I put to him about his statements.

 

My longest post and have writers cramp so will end here.

[rolandrat]

Rupert, there was no argument to loose, most of the bloggers on here are a friendly bunch of guys who go out of their way to offer advice based on their own personal experiences, if you don't want to join then don't try to rock the boat.

[rolandrat]

Rupert, I have just read your post and you have said that you have the 5 speed box model so how can you have any experience of the 6 speed model. As for your so called unanswered questions perhaps you can enlighten me.

[onecal]

Fair enough we all know reverse gear may be dropped from 2009 build?, one step in the right direction but what about all the motorhomes built on these units before 2009 that have this problem. This surly will affect their resale value in the future. Do we just forget about all the people who not so long ago brought new or almost new , now to find a new updated model solves the problem,so there was a problem. So lets not talk about the old one as all is OK now, I don't think so with all that are out there built on these units pre 2009

Regards,

Brendan

[rupert123]

onecal vw - 2011-05-05 12:45 PM

 

Fair enough we all know reverse gear may be dropped from 2009 build?, one step in the right direction but what about all the motorhomes built on these units before 2009 that have this problem. This surly will affect their resale value in the future. Do we just forget about all the people who not so long ago brought new or almost new , now to find a new updated model solves the problem,so there was a problem. So lets not talk about the old one as all is OK now, I don't think so with all that are out there built on these units pre 2009

Regards,

Brendan

 

I give up I write a long tedious answer and you do not bother to read it I covered the X250 from 2007, at least I thought so, including those which had the high reverse gear.

[rupert123]

rolandrat - 2011-05-05 12:24 PM

 

Rupert, there was no argument to loose, most of the bloggers on here are a friendly bunch of guys who go out of their way to offer advice based on their own personal experiences, if you don't want to join then don't try to rock the boat.

 

I can, and indeed do, offer and take advice where I can. This thread no longer does that it consists of a differance of opinions and is there fore an argument or if you prefer a discussion.

[pepe63xnotuse]

..This thread(..or more specifically,this topic..)is making me dizzy... 8-)

 

 

[rupert123]

rolandrat - 2011-05-05 12:39 PM

 

Rupert, I have just read your post and you have said that you have the 5 speed box model so how can you have any experience of the 6 speed model. As for your so called unanswered questions perhaps you can enlighten me.

 

'We have plenty of people now saying X250 no problems, perhaps you can point us all in the direction of the, in your words, 'the many owners who have genuine problems', they seem to be totaly absent on the forums now' {My quote}

 

The above quote is one lifted from my post of 4 May , one of several questions I asked you ignored. Yes I have a five speed you have a 3ltr so neither of us has the 2.3, does this make me any less qualified to comment. As a matter of fact I have a very close friend who has a 2008 2.3 and a neighbour who has a 2007 2.3, have mentioned this before. Both of which I have driven and had long discussions with owners about a common interest. One has not had a fix and is not going to, he can see nothing wrong, the other has had the fix and is happy. I have driven this as well and the gearing is certainly lower and I can see no problem with it. As to the rest of my post i have extensive experience in the motor trade and I can read. What I cannot find is any reference at all to all these current owners who have genuine problems you mention. Anyway go back to my long and I admit tedious post read it properly and tell me where I am wrong. Also you or anyone else point me in the direction of any current problem with a 2.3 gearbox that has been properly modified or is a late model one. If you cannot do this then you are simply going on about some fictious future problem that may occure. What has happened in the past is just that, their is no mileage in keeping on about it.

[onecal]

Hi ,

I have worked on models before 2007 up to 2008 with this problem, not all suffer as you have pointed out , so yes I have read your post, it does not distract from the point that the old models DO suffer from this problem and is well known in the trade. Yes people are staying quite, but it's very unfair on them to be left in this position where their Motorhomes have dropped in value because of this major fault. As you are well aware a lot of Motorhomes are built on this unit, so it and will affect a lot when the trade their pride and joy,

So my simple question to any expert out there is there anything going to be done for these people who have this problem, whatever year, since the problem is supposed to be fixed after 2009.

Let's wait and see,

Regards,

Brendan

[rupert123]

onecal vw - 2011-05-05 3:34 PM

 

Hi ,

I have worked on models before 2007 up to 2008 with this problem, not all suffer as you have pointed out , so yes I have read your post, it does not distract from the point that the old models DO suffer from this problem and is well known in the trade. Yes people are staying quite, but it's very unfair on them to be left in this position where their Motorhomes have dropped in value because of this major fault. As you are well aware a lot of Motorhomes are built on this unit, so it and will affect a lot when the trade their pride and joy,

So my simple question to any expert out there is there anything going to be done for these people who have this problem, whatever year, since the problem is supposed to be fixed after 2009.

Let's wait and see,

Regards,

Brendan

 

Aaaaaah, is it me. I have tried to explain in detail in my long post how people have been helped, and the problem sorted out, their were no X250 models before 2007, what is it you are saying? As to the value bit, this I also went into in some detail a little earlier and do not intend to keep going over this, as someone has already said it is making them dizzy. I cannot be any more clear, sorry, but suggest you go back and read all the posts, I am off to take an asprin.

[flicka]

Brian Kirby - 2011-05-03 12:19 AM

flicka - 2011-05-01 11:18 PM ...................... Some answers:- Why do I need to use AdBlue? AdBlue is used by an advanced pollution control technology installed in the exhaust system called Selective Catalytic Reduction or SCR. SCR systems work by reacting AdBlue with the harmful NOx gases in the exhaust to form harmless water and nitrogen. NOx is an abbreviation for nitrogen oxide gases, which are produced during the combustion process in diesel engines and are one of the main components of atmospheric pollution. It is important to ensure that you always have an adequate supply of AdBlue in the tank. If a truck or bus with an SCR system is operated without AdBlue, then there is risk that the complex SCR equipment will be damaged, and the emissions will not meet legal requirements. ................... If the temperature of AdBlue drops below -11°C in extremely cold weather, it freezes. Therefore AdBlue pumps in the Nordic countries and other cold areas are heated to resist winter problems. Some SCR trucks have heating systems, which ensures stable operation of the SCR system, even in the coldest weather. AdBlue that is frozen is not damaged in any way, and can be used as soon as it has defrosted.

Oh goody!  No AdBlue risks damaging the SCR.  AdBlue freezes below -11.  -11 is deemed adequate frost protection for Europe, except the Nordic countries where it gets colder and SCR heaters are fitted. 

So, you go skiing in the Alps, where the temp can drop way below -11, or you make a late season run to a "Nordic" country, and get caught by unseasonably cold weather.  Un-noticed, your AdBlue freezes and you drive home, in the process damaging the ADR.  You probably won't know of the damage until the first MoT, by which time your van is out of warranty.  I wonder how much the replacement kit costs?  Any offers?

Don't folk realise that these vehicles are liable travel all over Europe, and don't just stay in the zone in which they are registered?  Sure most will, but many won't.  Should they all carry a warning "Do not Drive North of Latitude 55, or above 1,500 metres, in winter"?  :-)

I was interested to note Brian’s comment that Ad-Blu freezes at -11 deg, as I remembered reviewing the product as a De-icing agent for a Refinery’s road system, a few years ago. At that time there were numerous Airports using it for de-icing their runways.So looking at UreaUrea is an extremely effective de-icer to abo.15 degrees Fahrenheit. One of its degradtionproducts is ammonia, which is highly toxic to aquatic organisms. It is also a source nitrogen, which produce toxins & can accelerate the formation of algae blooms and choke off oxygen to other aquatic animals.As urea sprays may damage crop foliage, specific advice should be sought before useUrea can be irritating to skin and eyes. Too high concentrations in the blood can cause damage to organs of the body. Low concentrations of urea such as in urine are not dangerous. Repeated or prolonged contact with urea in fertiliser form on the skin may cause dermatitis. The substance also irritates the eyes, the skin, and the respiratory tract. The substance decomposes on heating above melting point, producing toxic gases, and reacts violently with strong oxidants, nitrites, inorganic chlorides, chlorites and perchlorates, causing fire and explosion hazardErrrrr the Exhaust environment ?So in conclusion, IMO where Ad-Blu is a manufacturers solution to achieving Euro V engines compliance, the environmentalists have succeeded in reducing NOx emissions whilst introducing others which are as bad, if not worse. :-( :-(

[colin]

rupert123 - 2011-05-05 6:10 PM

 

onecal vw - 2011-05-05 3:34 PM

 

Hi ,

I have worked on models before 2007 up to 2008 with this problem, not all suffer as you have pointed out , so yes I have read your post, it does not distract from the point that the old models DO suffer from this problem and is well known in the trade. Yes people are staying quite, but it's very unfair on them to be left in this position where their Motorhomes have dropped in value because of this major fault. As you are well aware a lot of Motorhomes are built on this unit, so it and will affect a lot when the trade their pride and joy,

So my simple question to any expert out there is there anything going to be done for these people who have this problem, whatever year, since the problem is supposed to be fixed after 2009.

Let's wait and see,

Regards,

Brendan

 

Aaaaaah, is it me. I have tried to explain in detail in my long post how people have been helped, and the problem sorted out, their were no X250 models before 2007, what is it you are saying? As to the value bit, this I also went into in some detail a little earlier and do not intend to keep going over this, as someone has already said it is making them dizzy. I cannot be any more clear, sorry, but suggest you go back and read all the posts, I am off to take an asprin.

 

No it's not you Henry, Brendan seems to have joined the judder debate very late in the game, pretty much as it's "all over bar the shouting", This seems most odd, has he been following the debate for several years like some of us, if so why doesn't he seem to have any knowledge of the 'fixes' offered by Fiat to owners?

p.s. have you worked on the previous model to x250? this 'supposedly' sorted model has also had complaints from owners about judder.

[onecal]

Error 500

[onecal]

Hi,

So are you saying that "fix"s" are now going to be offered or have been offered to people with 2006/2007 Motorhomes who still have this problem.Or they have no problems. They have gone through a few fix it during warranty already , none worked. So is to hell with the rest of owners WHO DO have judder problems, "ah sure it no concern we will just change it attitude" Yes we do understand the gearing has been dropped(so there was a problem, it was just not half truths and hysteria) and rightly so on the newer model (which I have not worked on yet) But what about the second hand ones of 2008 vintage that are coming onstream now?????We just don't care as we have the new model,,,Hmmmmm

Regards,

Brendan

[Mel B]

A couple of things off the web which some might find interesting reading:

 

http://www.seered.co.uk/fiat.htm

 

http://www.fiat.co.uk/Community/forums/thread/11658.aspx

 

Second hand/earlier X250s:

Unfortunately I cannot agree with the stance that the fix carrier out by Fiat on earlier X250s has definitely cured the problem on all vehicles on which it has been done as there have certainly been owners on this very forum who have stated that after the 'fix' the problem is still there to some extent. Therefore having the fix done does not guarantee the situation is totally resolved, this is something that current and future owners need to be aware of and not take for granted that a 'fixed' van is now fine - the only way to tell is to give it a good test drive.

 

Later/New vans (produced since mid-2010 onwards if memory serves)

It may be that the new vans with their modified/new (?) gearboxes are fine, and I sincerely hope so, but not having heard doesn't make it definitely the case. What I would really like to see/hear about is a fair number of owners/reviewers really putting their vans to the test by doing a nice long drive backwards up a 1:4 slope, that way we would have some proof that it is resolved once and for all.

[onecal]

That is very true Mel, Fix or no Fix,,,,,,,,,,no Fix

Regards,

Brendan