Juddergate Again

[Guest Tracker]

Brian Kirby - 2011-05-25 10:24 PM

Place the ramp/s against the relevant wheel/s as normal. Roll back 6 inches or so, then simply bring up the revs and drive straight up the ramp to the top in one hit, and stop on the footbrake only (i.e. do not apply handbrake). Your assistant needs to yell STOP! just before you get to the top or you'll overshoot, but the necessary moment is soon arrived at. Now check level. If you've gone too far up, simply allow the van to roll back down the ramp a little until nearly there, then apply handbrake. Some, I think most, will drop a bit more when the footbrake is released, but you'll soon learn what to expect. Because ramps are so short, the strain placed on the clutch is even less than for a normal hill-start.

 

I have a different method Brian - well I would wouldn't I!

 

Extend the ramps with 10 mm plywood, either by screwing the whole ramp onto a board which is 15 cm longer than the ramp itself or by hinging a 15 cm flap onto the ramp at the entry end. That way before the wheel starts climbing the ramp it already has the ramp pinned down so it can't escape.

 

At the rear of the ramp affix yet more of the ubiquitous plywood so that it extends vertically about 10 cm above the height of the ramp. That way when you reach the top end of the ramp you can feel it on the clutch and there is much less risk of going over the top. For extra rigidity you can brace the two bits of plywood together - but you shouldn't need to?

 

If you store your ramps one against the other there is very little extra storage space needed but best of it's cheap, easy to do and it works well.

 

With apologies for digression from topic!

[onecal]

Not good enough for people to put up with that nonsence in this day and age. Others base units give no problem and years of good service without slipping clutches or reving like mad or juddering like a rattle box's. Is this the joys of motorhoming for some? Of course one could always put a winch on the back :$

Has anyone gone to the Dragon's Den with that one?

Regards,

Brendan

[broc]

Brian Kirby - 2011-05-25 10:24 PM

 

Place the ramp/s against the relevant wheel/s as normal. Roll back 6 inches or so, then simply bring up the revs and drive straight up the ramp to the top in one hit, and stop on the footbrake only (i.e. do not apply handbrake). Your assistant needs to yell STOP! just before you get to the top or you'll overshoot, but the necessary moment is soon arrived at. Now check level. If you've gone too far up, simply allow the van to roll back down the ramp a little until nearly there, then apply handbrake. Some, I think most, will drop a bit more when the footbrake is released, but you'll soon learn what to expect. Because ramps are so short,

the strain placed on the clutch is even less than for a normal hill-start.

 

I fully agree; the technique you describe works fine on a hardstanding but I have had problems on soft ground; the worst occasion was when we were trying level up very close to a dry stone wall; overshooting the ramps would have meant some serious damage to the rear of the van. Our 5-speed Transit is certainly not a patch on our previous 5-speed 2.8 Ducato when it comes to reversing, although it's a far better drive forwards!

[rupert123]

Last few posts on here confirm a long held belief that a lot of M/H drivers really need to get some more driving lessons. They seem completely unable to adapt their driving to suit a set of circumstances or cope with the differant driving characteristics of a vehicle that is not the same as the last one they had. It beggers belief that people cannot drive their van up onto ramps without having epics, no wonder some manage to get an X250 to shudder in reverse.

[Brian Kirby]

I seem to remember reading somewhere in the Fiat Ducato advertising literature, that only people named Henry Stilwell should attempt to drive these vans. I think there was also a rider that they should also live in Wales. Mind, it was in very small print! :D

 

Of course driving techniques, and the acquired (mostly bad!) driving habits of a lifetime, influence how vehicles respond to different drivers. However, if it is properly designed and engineered, the vehicle should be "blind" as to who is driving.

 

So here is a conundrum. You are a vehicle manufacturer who has made a vehicle a number of people find cannot be reversed under certain conditions without sustaining damage. You discover there are two remedies to this problem.

A) To issue guidance on how to modify driving technique to avert the problem - generally resulting in a complete cure.

B) To change engine mountings, clutches, and gear sets - which diminishes, but does not completely cure, the problem.

 

Which course do you adopt, bearing in mind that option A is cheap, but may ruffle a few feathers, and that option B is expensive in re-design time, engineering, and labour costs, and sill leaves some owners dissatisfied? Tough one, isn't it? :D

[Manu]

Perhaps Henry has the nack.....he gets his passenger to push hard on the floor pan under the dash and guess what, you get a smoother ride. ;-)

[arthur49]

Brian Kirby - 2011-05-25 10:24 PM

 

Place the ramp/s against the relevant wheel/s as normal. Roll back 6 inches or so, then simply bring up the revs and drive straight up the ramp to the top in one hit, and stop on the footbrake only (i.e. do not apply handbrake). Your assistant needs to yell STOP! just before you get to the top or you'll overshoot, but the necessary moment is soon arrived at. Now check level. If you've gone too far up, simply allow the van to roll back down the ramp a little until nearly there, then apply handbrake. Some, I think most, will drop a bit more when the footbrake is released, but you'll soon learn what to expect. Because ramps are so short, the strain placed on the clutch is even less than for a normal hill-start.

 

 

This is the technique we use - puts far less strain on the clutch, either reversing up or going forwards. If we 'miss' the top first time (rare) we roll off and try again. No revving engine or cooking clutch halfway up a ramp.

On the subject of reversing onto ramps why do so - if reverse ratio is higher than first its harder on the transmission?

Arthur

(?)

[DJP]

rupert123 - 2011-05-27 10:55 AM

 

Last few posts on here confirm a long held belief that a lot of M/H drivers really need to get some more driving lessons. They seem completely unable to adapt their driving to suit a set of circumstances or cope with the differant driving characteristics of a vehicle that is not the same as the last one they had. It beggers belief that people cannot drive their van up onto ramps without having epics, no wonder some manage to get an X250 to shudder in reverse.

 

OK EXPERT. PLEASE educate me and give me a lesson on reversing. NOT onto ramps, but along a flat straight path.

As far as I see it there are 3 options. If there are more, please advise.

To reverse, select gear (reverse I assume) release cluctch pedal. OK so far?

Vehicle starts to judder. Do I :-

A Let it continue to judder and shake the van to pieces?

B Slip the clutch to avoid the judder, but wear the clutch out quicker?

C Increase the revs to 1300rpm and let the cluch out, reversing at an unsafe speed. No Judder, No slip, just plain unsafe.

 

How should I adapt my driving style to eliminate the problem of judder?

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I would hazard a guess you will chose option B slip the clutch. This was my choice. Result, new clutch at 12000 miles. No it was NOT worn out. The surface became highly polished and slipped under load.

Option A may have resulted in a total gearbox failure due to collapsed bearings (caused by vibration) Collapsed clutch, same reason. Destroyed engine mounts, same reason.

Option C Just far too dangerous to reverse at that speed.

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

I have read this thread with interest, I have a 2003 2.8 jtd, and previously had a 2002 2.3 Jtd, both I found had a tendency to judder in reverse unless handled with kid gloves, my solution is to never reverse on to my ramps,but drive on to them, it's much easier to almost simply roll backwards off them the next day, I also attempt to never carry out any reversing manoeuvre unless absolutely unavoidable.

 

In addition I was recently talking to a guy down here in the Dordogne, on his way back from Spain, with the "new" van, an Autocruise coachbuilt 2010 2.2, and he was telling me he had the newly modified gearbox fitted, and new clutch all under warranty, only to find the judder had not completely gone away. He too said his solution was to avoid reversing if at all possible, not ideal, but better than beating yourself up about it all the time, or dump the van would be my advice.

[art338]

Its about time some of you met up and decided who was good at reversing or not, it should be a pretty simple excercise.

 

Rupert123 seems to be the only one on here who can do it in a faultless way every time and is of the opinion that everyone else does is wrongly.

 

True there are some people with a smart brain like a computer that can sense all the sounds, feelings and tremours before they become violent. And there are likely very many who are hopless in a practical way of understanding a vehicles quirky temprement.

 

It needs someone with a real rubbish juddery van to arrange a meeting at a convenient point, then, we can all come and watch and learn how to do it softly softly.

 

DJP has made an offer so lets hope someone follows this up

 

On the matter of reversing or going forward up ramps, some sites prefer the van to point in a certain way, but very often its the better view that decides which way one points.

 

How many years has this been going on ??

 

art

[broc]

Sometimes you park the way a campsite asks you to, or because the layout of your van dictates which way you park. On soft ground ideally you want to keep your driving wheels as close to a 'hard' surface as possible to avoid getting bogged down so you reverse onto ramps......

 

In my 40 years driving experience I have driven a fair range of vehicles up to 7.5 tonnes; I make no claim about my driving ability but I have never had a clutch fail, or a gearbox need repair in all that time so I must be either incredibly lucky or alternatively I might just have some idea how to drive.....& in my experience the reverse gear of a 5-speed Transit MK7 such as the one we have is too high to reverse safely without resorting to slipping the clutch.

 

As an aside, as a regular internet forum user, you soon spot certain types of user on a forum:

 

the expert, who presents reasoned arguments, tries to present a balanced opinion & is respected by everyone

 

the troll, who spends their time trying to wind up other users with their barbed, unhelpful, critical comments.

 

the bigot, who spends so much time trying to demonstrate why their opinion is right & everyone else is wrong.....

 

This thread has attracted a few stereotypes hasn't it?

 

 

 

 

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

I would give up now mate, you'll find everyone you describe on here in bucket loads, I'm sure I fit in there also. You do omit however a few further "categories of user"

 

The bloke who won't take advice freely given.

The "regulars" who seem to do nothing else but act as a google search engine ( we know how to do it you know )

The others who's names come up time and time again, that seem to have so much time commenting on every thread I doubt they even have a motor home, or spend so little time using it that's why they spend countless hours on here, either with the intention of winding people up, or to impress with their superior choice of van / knowledge / or just generally taking the p**** at every opportunity. Why don't they take up online scrabble and give us all a break.

 

The regular internet forum user as you describe yourself. Why if you find it so irksome ?

 

The odd Insomniac ( guilty )

 

And finally the really genuine helpful blokes, Euroserve to name just one. ( probably the only one ! )

 

 

 

:-| :-S :-S :-S

[rupert123]

art338 - 2011-05-27 9:52 PM

 

Its about time some of you met up and decided who was good at reversing or not, it should be a pretty simple excercise.

 

Rupert123 seems to be the only one on here who can do it in a faultless way every time and is of the opinion that everyone else does is wrongly.

 

True there are some people with a smart brain like a computer that can sense all the sounds, feelings and tremours before they become violent. And there are likely very many who are hopless in a practical way of understanding a vehicles quirky temprement.

 

It needs someone with a real rubbish juddery van to arrange a meeting at a convenient point, then, we can all come and watch and learn how to do it softly softly.

 

DJP has made an offer so lets hope someone follows this up

 

On the matter of reversing or going forward up ramps, some sites prefer the van to point in a certain way, but very often its the better view that decides which way one points.

 

How many years has this been going on ??

 

art

 

I would point out that my last post was not about 'judder', it was in reference to those who seem not able to preform the simple task of driving a van up onto ramps. I would also point out that their have been rather a lot on here recently who seem to be able to reverse their X250 with no problem. The ones still going on about it are limited to a small handfull like yourself who live in the past. If you or anyone would like a simple driving lesson then happy to oblige, come to North Wales, where we have some proper hills and look me up. (lol)

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

Is that really supposed to be funny,condescending rubbish is the way I'd describe your comment, but that seems to sum up most of the drivel you post on here, always it seems looking to be offensive. Perhaps it's all that rain you get. If you have nothing useful to say why don't you just keep it shut, or write it in Cymru >:-(

[Guest pelmetman]

Strikes me that Euroserv had the answer a while back, in that some vehicles will leave the factory perfect and will never have a problem, and some who get the gearbox with the dodgy shims will have the judder :D

[rupert123]

1footinthegrave - 2011-05-28 11:02 AM

 

Is that really supposed to be funny,condescending rubbish is the way I'd describe your comment, but that seems to sum up most of the drivel you post on here, always it seems looking to be offensive. Perhaps it's all that rain you get. If you have nothing useful to say why don't you just keep it shut, or write it in Cymru >:-(

 

Oh dear, of the 1200 odd posts I have made around 800 are in answer to various questions asked about campsite recommendations, places to see etc where i do my best to be helpfull. I guess that leaves around 400 that are drivel, still better than your 100% drivel.

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

rupert123 - 2011-05-28 6:03 PM

 

1footinthegrave - 2011-05-28 11:02 AM

 

Is that really supposed to be funny,condescending rubbish is the way I'd describe your comment, but that seems to sum up most of the drivel you post on here, always it seems looking to be offensive. Perhaps it's all that rain you get. If you have nothing useful to say why don't you just keep it shut, or write it in Cymru >:-(

 

Oh dear, of the 1200 odd posts I have made around 800 are in answer to various questions asked about campsite recommendations, places to see etc where i do my best to be helpfull. I guess that leaves around 400 that are drivel, still better than your 100% drivel.

 

How very flattering that you have obviously read all of mine then,and again proved the point yet again with your nasty comment, you can't help yourself can you. You obviously must keep a spreadsheet detailing your posts,800 good ones eh out of 1200, well bully for you, you should get out more mate, or take up a hobby.

[Guest Tracker]

C'mon fellas be nice to each other eh?

 

Nowt to be gained by initiating aggression.

 

Everyoneshould be able to put their point of view without being slagged off by anyone else and those who are unable to conduct a discussion politely might like to reflect on their own postings.

 

Can't we just agree to disagree?

 

Henry's, and others, vans may well not judder - some do - some don't - but that does not mean that his driving ability is any better or worse than anyone elses?

 

And if a van does judder it does not mean that the owner has limited driving ability either - some do - some don't.

 

Can we just be thankful that there are some X250s out there that are fit for purpose for some fortunate owners and just leave it at that please?

 

We all have our postings misunderstood at times but when I follow a degenerating thread I always think that the first person to start slinging insults only does so out of desperation because they have nothing sensible to say and thereby lose the argument?

[oldlowie]

broc - 2011-05-27 10:43 PM

 

As an aside, as a regular internet forum user, you soon spot certain types of user on a forum:

 

the expert, who presents reasoned arguments, tries to present a balanced opinion & is respected by everyone

 

the troll, who spends their time trying to wind up other users with their barbed, unhelpful, critical comments.

 

the bigot, who spends so much time trying to demonstrate why their opinion is right & everyone else is wrong.....

 

This thread has attracted a few stereotypes hasn't it?

 

 

You've missed one (not important) type:

 

the broc, has no discernible opinion, nothing to add to the debate, but thought he would post anyway...

[rupert123]

Tracker - 2011-05-28 7:41 PM

 

C'mon fellas be nice to each other eh?

 

Nowt to be gained by initiating aggression.

 

Everyoneshould be able to put their point of view without being slagged off by anyone else and those who are unable to conduct a discussion politely might like to reflect on their own postings.

 

Can't we just agree to disagree?

 

Henry's, and others, vans may well not judder - some do - some don't - but that does not mean that his driving ability is any better or worse than anyone elses?

 

And if a van does judder it does not mean that the owner has limited driving ability either - some do - some don't.

 

Can we just be thankful that there are some X250s out there that are fit for purpose for some fortunate owners and just leave it at that please?

 

We all have our postings misunderstood at times but when I follow a degenerating thread I always think that the first person to start slinging insults only does so out of desperation because they have nothing sensible to say and thereby lose the argument?

 

Your right of course Rich so apologise to others for reacting to onefootinhismo**h, he keeps his identity well hidden, and will not respond further to him.

[onecal]

Hi,

Just down in Oradour sur Glane and it's unreal that this morning one broke down, clutch gone 6120Klm's on the clock. he is waiting for assistance as I write .On the way back in a French motorhome backing in a not so steep incline juddering and whining like mad. Just got chatting the man and wife of same . They are far from happy campers.

Regards,

Brendan

[postnote]

rupert123 - 2011-05-28 6:03 PM

 

1footinthegrave - 2011-05-28 11:02 AM

 

Is that really supposed to be funny,condescending rubbish is the way I'd describe your comment, but that seems to sum up most of the drivel you post on here, always it seems looking to be offensive. Perhaps it's all that rain you get. If you have nothing useful to say why don't you just keep it shut, or write it in Cymru >:-(

 

Oh dear, of the 1200 odd posts I have made around 800 are in answer to various questions asked about campsite recommendations, places to see etc where i do my best to be helpfull. I guess that leaves around 400 that are drivel, still better than your 100% drivel.

 

My advice Rupert bare, don’t take on 1footinthegrave, he tollaly decimated Judgemental yesterday, in fact Judgey still hasn’t recovered, expect to apologise for his nasty ways. Rupert be warned!! :D

[Guest JudgeMental]

postnote - 2011-06-06 4:39 PM

My advice Rupert bare, don’t take on 1footinthegrave, he tollaly decimated Judgemental yesterday, in fact Judgey still hasn’t recovered, expect to apologise for his nasty ways. Rupert be warned!! :D

 

Yet again you prove wholeheartedly what a worthless, know nothing and pig ignorant individual you are....Do you really think you can continue to getaway with your completely off topic, juvenile rants for long.....

[onecal]

Well that's the holiday over for this couple down here in Oradour sur Glane as the dealer or whatever arrived with a car for them , wait for it to get them home. There has been so much shouting,etc' . Six of the owners of motorhomes here on site now say that they have nothing only trouble with the base vehicle and if they want to trade up to a different base vehicle they are offered very poor resale value on their own.

Regards,

Brendan

[robertandjean]

In general agree with Henry (Rupert 123) on this. Yes some Fiats clearly have a judder but a lot , including ours do not, and feel that the scale of the problem has been exgagerated at times, often by people who do not even own said vans. Clearly those who have experienced problems deserve support.

 

Postnote, sorry but do not think old 1foot got the better of the Judge, so Rupert need not worry. In the past the Judge (Eddie) and ourselves have exchanged opinions but really he is a good guy willing to help others. Now can the forum focus on helpful exchanges of info please?