pepe63xnotuse Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 euroserv - 2011-06-10 12:35 PM It was suggested a very long time ago during Andy's campaign to bring the problem to the attention of the masses and thereby get some action from Fiat et al,that the moderators could permanently pin a brief summary of the problem, likely causes and ways to remedy the situation. A single; highly informative item should be written and fixed, permantly such as is the 'great electricity debate' so that without seemingly endless pages of discussion, diatribe and insult the fact could be stated and it would act as a signpost for anyone who has or is worried about judder issues so that they know what to do about it. Nick Great idea! ;-) (..as long as it would be "locked") Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nowtelse2do Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 Nick. That is one of the most sensible posts I've seen on this subject and can only thank you for the input that you have put into it. I ask Warner's who in my opinion have been very patient and understanding on this matter to do as you request. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 Very sensible Nick, but hell when have forums ever been completely sensible, they would be pretty boring places. To those who are feed up with the subject I would say why are you still looking then, just ignore it. I have been trying to then up pops blokes like Brendan again with his vague and slightly daft comments which lets be kind and say are slightly exaggerated. All of us with the X250 base are fully aware that they are now fine, with the mods correctly done, and any new model is going to perform even better and remains the best base vehicle around. Intial tests on the euro five version look very good and my wife and I, who were going to change this year, have now decided to wait until this is availble. Well to be fair she does not care what the base vehicle is and gets to choose the back bit but I have the say on the driving bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Porky Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 rupert123 - 2011-06-10 5:59 PM All of us with the X250 base are fully aware that they are now fine, with the mods correctly done, and any new model is going to perform even better and remains the best base vehicle around. Intial tests on the euro five version look very good. Yes Nick I agree completely, but as quoted above any "summary" would need to be balanced to include statements like the above. It seems to me (owner of a Fiat 3L auto which drives like a dream) that time has certainly moved on and hopefully Fiat have learned that in this modern age of social networking you ignore your customers at your peril. *-) *-) Roy Fuller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sophie Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 " "All of us with the X250 base are fully aware that they are now fine, with the mods correctly done," Except of course, the 3 litre versions whose owners have been consistently told by Fiat that they have no problem. But try telling that to those160multijet owners who have been forced to "ride the clutch" and as a a result have had to finance new clutches, DMF flywheels etc, with no help at all from Fiat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 Excellent idea from Euroserv :-D ....................Any reply from Dan the man would be helpful :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhorsf Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 As usual Nick euroserve posts an excellent post thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 Come on guys! but you know it wont happen......Probably considered commercially damaging by Warners? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesFrance Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 onecal vw - 2011-06-09 11:57 PM Any unit that judders and eats up clutches is not good enough be it any make or model. Motorhomes tend to be around for quite awhile as most owners do low mileage per annum and are usually well looked after. Yes it is a disgrace that certain manfacturers let this go on . Bringing out a new model that is supposed to have the problem fixed and ignoring the problem of the old one, really is not good enough for the owners who are left with them or for future purchasers of same. Regards, Brendan Are you talking from personal experience here or just hearsay? I don't know what happens in the UK, but according to posters on French forums, the Fiat Camper Service take these problems on board and authorise any mods which are necessary to eradicate this problem on any of their motorhomes. This is not time limited by the warranty period. It would appear that many posters here are just repeating things that others have posted on various forums, so no purpose is served by continuing this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onecal Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 Hi, Sorry for my slow reply as I am in Italy at the moment, Yes James I am , I have worked on and repaired many as well. I don't think what has happened to the gentleman in Oradure sur Glane I hope is not repeating what someone else's posting, or is it?. I am not doing multiple posting on sites.He is to get back to me on his outcome.Good to see Euroserve back as he has been a great help to all Fiat motorhomers. Regards, Brendan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 A slight change of direction - as this thread no longer has any direction other than a slagging off contest. http://www.banwells.co.uk/news/auto-express-fiat-500-passenger-brake-issues/ It seems that the first complaints about this problem were recorded in 2008 so FIAT have known about this one for at least three years? Legendary FIAT customer care in action again - and some folk wonder why there is so much anti FIAT feeling? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 Tracker - 2011-06-12 1:17 PM A slight change of direction - as this thread no longer has any direction other than a slagging off contest. http://www.banwells.co.uk/news/auto-express-fiat-500-passenger-brake-issues/ It seems that the first complaints about this problem were recorded in 2008 so FIAT have known about this one for at least three years? Legendary FIAT customer care in action again - and some folk wonder why there is so much anti FIAT feeling? If I may say so Rich, without causeing to much offence, what a daft post this is and smacks of desperation to try and keep this dead issue going. Just type in complaints against any car maker you can think of and up will come a bucket load of stuff. One I had cause to be involved in recently concerns the Honda Civic but will not go into it you can find out yourself easily enough. I would say one thing to come out of this judder thing is that Fiat customers service is now one of the best around and very helpfull. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 Nobody will never cause offence by politely stating their own point of view Henry! We all have the right to disagree! Desperation? Well maybe I can agree with you there - but something needs to stop the bitching? Fiat customer care now among the best I find much harder to believe - but as I don't have a Fiat I can't argue on your personal level of satisfaction - but I suspect there are few who would argue with you? Anyway, thanks for the courteous reply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 rupert123 - 2011-06-09 10:59 PM Brian Kirby - 2011-06-09 5:56 PM rupert123 - 2011-06-09 2:29 PM ......................Certainly no modern Ford ................will, never driven one but doubt the new Renault will either. Come on Brendan let us have a few facts here. Oi! Fair do's Henry! Mine will! Mk 7 Transit 350 FWD 130PS, 3,500Kg MAM. Not unreasonably uphill, and sometimes tricky over uneven ground, but on tarmac or level grass it's a pussycat. No throttle, engage clutch gently, the revs automatically increase as required, and off you go. I do it nearly all the time when pitching. Rolls a bit quicker than walking speed. Sorry Brian I was under the impression the so called problem was uphill. My Fiat will do this on the level. Sorry if I was unclear Henry, but what I said was "not unreasonably uphill". Onecal said the slope at Oradour was not particularly steep. Can't say if his "backing in a not so steep incline" equates to my "not unreasonably uphill", but it sounds there or thereabouts. Our Transit will reverse uphill, as above, without judder but, if the gradient is steep the revs needed to deliver the necessary power result in uncomfortably high speed. To keep the speed within bounds, it becomes necessary to slip the clutch, and that quickly results in "nasty niffs", so I don't do it! However, that is nasty niffs, and not judder. All I am saying, is that I think your statement was rather too sweeping. BTW, does your statement above imply your Fiat also judders when reversing on steeper gradients? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 Brian Kirby - 2011-06-12 7:36 PM rupert123 - 2011-06-09 10:59 PM Brian Kirby - 2011-06-09 5:56 PM rupert123 - 2011-06-09 2:29 PM ......................Certainly no modern Ford ................will, never driven one but doubt the new Renault will either. Come on Brendan let us have a few facts here. Oi! Fair do's Henry! Mine will! Mk 7 Transit 350 FWD 130PS, 3,500Kg MAM. Not unreasonably uphill, and sometimes tricky over uneven ground, but on tarmac or level grass it's a pussycat. No throttle, engage clutch gently, the revs automatically increase as required, and off you go. I do it nearly all the time when pitching. Rolls a bit quicker than walking speed. Sorry Brian I was under the impression the so called problem was uphill. My Fiat will do this on the level. Sorry if I was unclear Henry, but what I said was "not unreasonably uphill". Onecal said the slope at Oradour was not particularly steep. Can't say if his "backing in a not so steep incline" equates to my "not unreasonably uphill", but it sounds there or thereabouts. Our Transit will reverse uphill, as above, without judder but, if the gradient is steep the revs needed to deliver the necessary power result in uncomfortably high speed. To keep the speed within bounds, it becomes necessary to slip the clutch, and that quickly results in "nasty niffs", so I don't do it! However, that is nasty niffs, and not judder. All I am saying, is that I think your statement was rather too sweeping. BTW, does your statement above imply your Fiat also judders when reversing on steeper gradients? OK Brian fair enough. No mine does not judder but it will not crawl backwards uphill without some clutch control, but what will. I have said before I have little doubt I could cause a judder by going to slow up to steep a slope, but why would you do that. This is the point I have never understood and have wondered about some peoples driving. I can drive it backwards up a slope without any smell of a burning clutch, that is all I require am not going to destruct test it as some seem to try and do. As to Brendans comments I have made my point about these before and my view remains the same. Have you noticed how polite we have all become, perhaps 'sicknote & co' did some good they did not intend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 rupert123 - 2011-06-12 10:46 PM................................ Have you noticed how polite we have all become, perhaps 'sicknote & co' did some good they did not intend. Indeed I have, and isn't it a much pleasanter place for it? Adults really ought to be able to disagree without someone having a hissing fit. Long may it last! :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onecal Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 Hi, Why should anyone have to revert to slipping the clutch to reverse up a slight incline when other units can do it with no problem (clutch fully engaged) just above tick over speed if the unit is up to the job in hand. Regards, Brendan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sundowner Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 I had an Adria Twin {2.3 120 bhp six speed box} bought in Feb '08, which, after having all the modifications done, was livable with, i.e. I decided it was as good as it was ever going to be. I decided this after experiencing driving several "white vans",- Mercedes, Volkswagen, Renault and Nissan. All of these vans, lightly laden and on virtually level roads proved to have high reverse gears, so were impossible to reverse at a safe speed without slipping the clutch to some degree. This seems to be a common feature of modern vans. I now own an 09 Adria Comfort {2.3 130 bhp ix speed box, which I thoroughly tested before buying, and came to the conclusion that it was as livable with as anything else. We have just returned from a 1700 mile trip around Ireland with no problems, and it suits us very well, {fingers crossed!} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 onecal vw - 2011-06-13 12:17 AM Hi, Why should anyone have to revert to slipping the clutch to reverse up a slight incline when other units can do it with no problem (clutch fully engaged) just above tick over speed if the unit is up to the job in hand. Regards, Brendan The most obvious factor, Brendan, is gearing. Either the reverse gear itself, or the overall gearing. But, load will also have an influence, so two otherwise identical vehicles, one lightly laden, and the other at max load, may well exhibit different characteristics. Then there is age: an older, well run in, engine will be more tolerant of mild abuse that a new, tight, engine. Beyond these; with electronics controlling the whole transition of throttle pressure to engine response, and with bore/stroke relationships and compression ratios differing between one engine and another; the potential for different vehicles, of different weights, with different gearing, having different engines, and different ECU programmes, and being differently bedded in, to behave differently, is very wide indeed. I think it is not instructive to try to draw comparisons, but better to focus just on those vehicles that won't reverse smoothly. After all, the others just quietly do what they should, and do not cause their owners this problem. The exception to this rule would be if trying to work out which are the ones that don't judder, and why, so that one could be certain of buying one. That, too, might be a fruitful avenue to follow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onecal Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 Great reply Brian , You have hit the nail on the head, Regards, Brendan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 Hello all, First: Brendan; Thank you for your comment though i must warn you I have not been anywhere, there just has not been much on here for a while where my input was required. I am always monitoring though! Others said nice things too, and I thank you for supporting my proposal. It did go pretty much how i expected though and we just had to have a (albeit very polite) contribution that (as usual) suggested that all was well in the world of X250 campers. It is not; and I will tell you why..... There has indeed been a modification carried out to a lot of vehicles but there are many that may have been missed because either the owner did not realise ther was a fix or the owner bailed out of the vehicle in the early days before the successful campaign bore any results. There is a good chance that an early second hand vehicle may be harbouring gearbox troubles and even some built before 2009 that slipped through the net. These are 2.2 5 speeds and 2.3 6 speeds. It would be quite insane to assume that every van that could be fixed has been and my proposal was to give potential buyers the ammunition they need to check and insist on a remedy before buying. Thereby protecting their investment. In addition it would serve as a reminder that there has never been any acceptance of the existence of any problems with the 3.0 manual version in spite of various complaints and suspected 'gagging orders'. Other than a modified clutch NOTHING has been done to alleviate these problems with that engine and gearbox combination. It is widely accepted that the comfort-matic is not affected by judder or premature clutch wear but even this remains somewhat mysterious. This is all connected with the overly high reverse gear which makes reversing a brisk affair without a bit of clutch jiggery pokery and some owners have been uncomfortable with that, so a little advice there would help. The most puzzling thing is that it does not seem to matter much what type of vehicle it is. Just as many PVC's have been affected as large coachbuilts, so that led me to suggest that the build quality of the gearboxes had been variable. We have had some that rattled due to incorrect clearances on the main shaft bearings and I (personally) think that this is whaere the inconsistencies come from. I also think that because the 'fix' for the 6 speed boxes did not include a bearing and shim set that any that were not much better afterwards were still suffering with incorrectly set up bearings. I think people need to know that too. So once again i implore you; allow people to have the information and be pleased, even smug if you like that yours is fine. I wish that 100% were perfect but they are clearly not, and you would not like to be walking blindly down that alley would you? Moderators; please think about this. It is one of the biggest cunsumer affairs issues that this industry has ever faced, and your publication needs to be seen as THE source of good information, not hysteria or scaremongering. This forum reflects that. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 Well said Nick for so clearly stating (again) what so many of us on here have been repeating in one form or another for several years. Lets hope that your unparalleled experience of these vans allows your voice to carry more weight than mine and other members of an often gullible Joe Public and that you won't be 'put down' by the unaffected ones for plainly stating what is no more than the truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolandrat Posted June 13, 2011 Author Share Posted June 13, 2011 Well said Nick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onecal Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 Hi Nick, I know quite well aware of the problems and many so called fixes to fellow motorhomers over the years and i am far from being smug. People that buy these units should be informed and treated better. That is my point . The gentleman in Oradour sur Glane has been treated very badly, so lets see how that goes.Read back over my posts and you will see that I am trying to point out that it is the old models that have not been FIXED are now coming on stream as "second hand Motorhomes" giving much heart ache to the new owners. Not just good enough to say ah yes sure the new ones are OK and the drivers of the old ones on their purchase being fobbed off and told told they don't know how to drive. Regards, Brendan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 Brendan, My comment relating to smugness was not aimed at you. He knows who he is and I would rather not labour the point due to the relative peace that has broken out. Whatever next? Agreement?.... Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.