Juddergate Again

[Steve928]

...putting their vans to the test by doing a nice long drive backwards up a 1:4 slope

 

In 40+ years of driving I can't recall ever having to do long reverse up a 25% gradient, nor have I owned a vehicle that would do that without complaining. Get real!

 

Both our current cars are far worse at reversing than our X250. One has a reverse ratio about equal to third gear..

[onecal]

Error 500

[onecal]

When one buys a new machine you should have not have to put up with a juddering rattlebox. In this day and age that is not good enough and to be fobbed off with so called fixes that don't work, get real. That might have worked 40 years ago but it's a little hard to take for the people who have worked their lifetime and yes maybe have had to drive some poor machines during their lifetime, so they would have gained a lot of experience, now have to put up with this in retirement. Some I believe were told they don't know how to reverse. The fault exists and looks like nothing will be done .

Regards,

Brendan

[mike 202]

Spoke to a couple at a Major dealers and they said that there was no problem with Fiat X250 based motorhomes, I disagreed but they said that I had got it wrong listening to and reading forums. They then informed me that it was due to people being unable to reverse. At this point I gave up and did not bother to inform them that I had problems with my X250 before I bought my current motorhome.

 

So a lot of people will end up with problems, especially those who cannot afford new and who will suffer most and may not be able to afford repairs. Life was ever thus, but it is pretty unfair in my opinion.

[onecal]

Hi Mike,

I think that just says it all,

Regards,

Brendan

[onecal]

Hi,

Looks like the old judder is not quite just gone just yet ,with reports of A class (over 3.5t) giving problems still. From other reports it looks like the reverse gear may not have been dropped after all. This was reported as one of the FIXES but now it looks like it may be just a clutch unit change. What is going on?

Regards,

Brendan

 

 

 

 

[art338]

Rupert,

 

You are suggesting that some like me are not being fair with FIAT by refusing to buy one. My association with FIAT goes back 58 years and more. I would never ever buy one.

 

You suggest that the media have not made a fuss. Rupert, they all are in it together selling a product, not one of them will state that anothers is faulty, they are all out to survive in industry.

 

The foreign gentlemen behind fiat are dependant on sales for their pension. They for sure are never going to admit anything, sales and yet more sales are all they are interested in, the end customer is forced to adjust, unfortunately.

 

art

[BIFFO]

Have had the dreaded judder gate problem on my 3.8 tonne hymer ( bought last June) Even after reversing it up what I thought was an adequate incline and no sign of judder,I discovered at a waste emptying point on a site in France that had a steep incline up to it that no way without slipping the clutch and a lot of protest could I make it up the ramp.

Rang Donaghy motorhomes right away and reported it . On my return home,contacted Donaghys and Paul ( service manager at the time) gave me a number to ring, did this and spoke to an Italian lady who took chassis numb. and purchase details and said I would be contacted soon.Soon was two days later,a gentleman from fiat G.B rang,told me to contact my nearest fiat dealer and they would inspect the van.this they did and it was agreed that gearing was too high in reverse. To make a long story short the van was left in on an agreed day and problem solved. Van is now judder free and easier to reverse though I think a bit high geared still compared to a transit.(2007 2.2 130 bhp). Over all I was happy with the out come as I have read many nightmare stories and listened to many a sad tale involving this problem. Fiat were back to me quickly as were Donaghys( letterkenny). The van was three days off the road but I was not put out too much by this.hope this is of some use to some.

B-) :-S

[rupert123]

art338 - 2011-05-25 1:29 PM

 

Rupert,

 

You are suggesting that some like me are not being fair with FIAT by refusing to buy one. My association with FIAT goes back 58 years and more. I would never ever buy one.

 

You suggest that the media have not made a fuss. Rupert, they all are in it together selling a product, not one of them will state that anothers is faulty, they are all out to survive in industry.

 

The foreign gentlemen behind fiat are dependant on sales for their pension. They for sure are never going to admit anything, sales and yet more sales are all they are interested in, the end customer is forced to adjust, unfortunately.

 

art

 

Yawn!

[Derek Uzzell]

bgrobbins@hotmail.co - 2011-05-25 1:53 PM

 

...Van is now judder free and easier to reverse though I think a bit high geared still compared to a transit.(2007 2.2 130 bhp)...

 

I'm surprised by that.

 

I have a Transit Mk 6-based motorhome with 2.0litre 125bhp motor that has the same 5-speed gearbox and ratios as the Transit Mk 7 2.2 litre 130bhp. The 1st gear ratio on my vehicle is uncomfortably high and the reverse gear ratio is higher still. If your Hymer (presumably with 2.3litre motor) has a higher reverse ratio than mine, even after modification, then I dread to think how high it was before.

 

A major problem with the X250 saga has seemed to be that credible information about Boxer/Ducato gear ratios has (for some unfathomable reason) proven impossible to obtain. It's easy enough with Transit to find out what the ratios are and, having done so, calculate whether they are relatively high or not.

 

In my own motorhome's case it's obvious that its 1st and reverse overall gear ratios are high and I take this into account when driving. If I got into the type of situation you've described - "I discovered at a waste emptying point on a site in France that had a steep incline up to it that no way without slipping the clutch and a lot of protest could I make it up the ramp." - then I'm not going to be the least bit surprised when I find it necessary to slip the clutch, nor (if I do that) will I be surprised when the transmission objects to that sort of treatment. I don't care for it, but it's the inevitable price one pays for over-high gearing.

 

I've always maintained that the Transit Mk 6/7 FWD platform-cab chassis with 5-speed gearbox is fundamentally unsuitable as a motorhome base purely because of its high 1st/reverse gearing. Fortunately the 6-speed transmission eventually fitted to Transit FWD Mk 7s addresses this.

 

 

[onecal]

Hmmmm,

But it looks like the clutch alone,may not be good enough to FIX this saga. It may just be short term as the complaints are coming in after this fix as well.. Is the gearbox just not good enough for the job?

Regards,

Brendan

[colin]

Having driven the mk7 6 speed and x250 2.3 modded 6 speed, I would be hard pushed to notice any differance in the reverse ratio's. The only trouble I have with x250 box is the very low 1st gear, couple this with a very light throttle and high low down torque and it's kangeroo time when trying to maintain low speed in first :$

[broc]

I would agree with the comments about 5-speed Transit MK7 reverse gear ratio... it is uncomfortably high & although ours doesn't judder it is easy to make the clutch 'smell' just reversing onto ramps.

 

As a matter of interest, does anyone know if the 6-speed gearbox in the 120bhp 2.2 HDi Boxer panel van is the same as the 6-speed gearbox in a 120bhp 2.3 Ducato panel van?

 

[DJP]

When people are posting replies to this topic, PLEASE tell us whether you are referring to 2.2, 2.3 or 3.0 ltr models. It would make things a lot clearer.

In response to this post

 

The new gearbox was introduced sometime in 2010, unfortunatly the actual date is in some doubt. As their have to my knowledge been no reported problems at all, indeed only praise from owners, we have to accept all is now fine

 

There has been NO new gearbox for any 3.0 ltr model. The ONLY change that was made in 2010 to the 3.0ltr model was to the clutch material used. as part of an ongoing product development *-) a new softer material is being used which will reduce the "polishing" effect of the clutch plate friction surface and the dual mass flywheel surface.

Whether the van was built in May 2007 or May 2011 the gearbox is exactly the same spec.

Why some gearboxes produce judder and some don't is a complete mystery. My 3.0 ltr has juddered from day 1 (Nov 2008) to current date in 1st and in reverse gears and with both clutch types. A new "softer" clutch was fitted in January 2011 and the judder is still the same as it was. The clutch was replaced at a cost of £1000. It had not worn out, it had become highly polished and slipped under load.

[Guest pelmetman]

Progress eh? :D

[oldlowie]

Derek Uzzell - 2011-05-25 4:30 PM

 

I have a Transit Mk 6-based motorhome with 2.0litre 125bhp motor that has the same 5-speed gearbox and ratios as the Transit Mk 7 2.2 litre 130bhp. The 1st gear ratio on my vehicle is uncomfortably high and the reverse gear ratio is higher still.

 

Really?

 

I had a TDCi tranny for 5 years and never noticed any 'issues' with high gearing.

 

I now have a Sevel 2.2 120bhp 6spd and have never noticed any 'issues' with high gearing.

 

 

I'm starting to think that 'Juddergate' is more to do with drivers' preconceived ideas about how their vehicles SHOULD perform.

 

Rather than driving a new vehicle with a view to gaining a knowledge of, and an appreciation for, the vehicle's design and performance characteristics, 'Juddergate Man' just jumps in and expects the same spec as his previous 'van. :-|

 

I suggest that anyone who is driving a vehicle that is new to them should learn what said vehicle can do, and cannot do, then drive accordingly. *-)

[Guest pelmetman]

oldlowie - 2011-05-25 8:53 PM

 

Rather than driving a new vehicle with a view to gaining a knowledge of, and an appreciation for, the vehicle's design and performance characteristics, 'Juddergate Man' just jumps in and expects the same spec as his previous 'van. :-|

 

I suggest that anyone who is driving a vehicle that is new to them should learn what said vehicle can do, and cannot do, then drive accordingly. *-)

 

As Euroserve pointed out a while back that some vehicles will be without problems from day one, so maybe you are one of the lucky ones.

 

Watching someone reverse a "Sevel" PVC up a slight incline in Much Wenlock at speed 8-) ..Demonstrated to me that reversing these vehicles appears to be almost dangerous 8-)

 

If a vehicle cannot be reversed up a slight incline slowly, then its not fit for purpose ;-)

[BIFFO]

The year before,same site,transit,2007,130 bhp,5 speed. Into reverse leave throttle alone,van proceeds up onto waste point. No way with 2008 fiat 2.2 130 bhp 6 speed. Am going back to same site this year and wonder how van will behave with modifications,.simply telling it as it is. The van is now easier to reverse as I don't need to work clutch and throttle as much.

Regards.

P.S. Have been driving vans for 30 years,all makes types and sizes.but. never had as much discussion about any of them as I've had over this fiat , sevel, or what ever some would like to call it.

 

B-)

[colin]

pelmetman - 2011-05-25 9:05 PM

 

Watching someone reverse a "Sevel" PVC up a slight incline in Much Wenlock at speed 8-) ..Demonstrated to me that reversing these vehicles appears to be almost dangerous 8-)

 

If a vehicle cannot be reversed up a slight incline slowly, then its not fit for purpose ;-)

 

Which model was that? I've driven 2.2 5 and 6 speed and 2.3 6 speed, non have ,HAD, to be reversed at dangerous speeds, but as I've stated many times before the premod 6 speeds could be made to judder up grassy inclines, and they do sometimes require a degree of control to reverse at slow speeds on tarmac, but then that applies to most other modern vans, although I have yet to drive the latest Renault, but I dought it is much different to the outgoing model.

[Guest pelmetman]

colin - 2011-05-25 9:29 PM

 

Which model was that? I've driven 2.2 5 and 6 speed and 2.3 6 speed, non have ,HAD, to be reversed at dangerous speeds, but as I've stated many times before the premod 6 speeds could be made to judder up grassy inclines, and they do sometimes require a degree of control to reverse at slow speeds on tarmac, but then that applies to most other modern vans, although I have yet to drive the latest Renault, but I dought it is much different to the outgoing model.

 

I've no idea :D ....as I was sat in my camper watching it make several attempts to get up a slight incline 8-)........what shocked me was the speed needed *-) ......It was at "Styche Farm" in Much Wenlock, if you go on their website you can see what the pitches are like ;-)

[Brian Kirby]

broc - 2011-05-25 7:25 PM

 

I would agree with the comments about 5-speed Transit MK7 reverse gear ratio... it is uncomfortably high & although ours doesn't judder it is easy to make the clutch 'smell' just reversing onto ramps.......................................

 

With apologies for OT, but I wonder if this may help? I have watched numerous motorhomers trying to get level while driving up ramps. Inevitably, this involves lots of revs, lots of slipped clutch, and the occasional expelled ramp! I have found a different approach works better, and is kinder to the mechanicals. However, unless you can see ramp and front wheel from the driving seat, it does rely on an assistant outside the van.

 

Place the ramp/s against the relevant wheel/s as normal. Roll back 6 inches or so, then simply bring up the revs and drive straight up the ramp to the top in one hit, and stop on the footbrake only (i.e. do not apply handbrake). Your assistant needs to yell STOP! just before you get to the top or you'll overshoot, but the necessary moment is soon arrived at. Now check level. If you've gone too far up, simply allow the van to roll back down the ramp a little until nearly there, then apply handbrake. Some, I think most, will drop a bit more when the footbrake is released, but you'll soon learn what to expect. Because ramps are so short, the strain placed on the clutch is even less than for a normal hill-start.

[onecal]

Hi,

Nothing wrong with the clutch,,,well,,,,,,,,,it's the GEARBOX that is wrong for the job in hand. Other models can do it ticking over, now that is not good enough in this day and age, thats why there is so much talk about the rattle box's that are out there. Sure some owners don't want to talk about it because of poor resale value, but on the other hand some are just fed up with it, and some even been told they don't know how to reverse, keep the rev's up, it's not a problem. Not good enough I am afraid as it will be someone else's problem tomorrow. Motorhomes tend to have quite a long life span.

Regards,

Brendan

[DJP]

I.

 

 

I'm starting to think that 'Juddergate' is more to do with drivers' preconceived ideas about how their vehicles SHOULD perform.

 

Rather than driving a new vehicle with a view to gaining a knowledge of, and an appreciation for, the vehicle's design and performance characteristics, 'Juddergate Man' just jumps in and expects the same spec as his previous 'van. :-|

 

I suggest that anyone who is driving a vehicle that is new to them should learn what said vehicle can do, and cannot do, then drive accordingly. *-)

 

oldlowie

 

If you had a 3.0 with the judder problem you may appreciate WHAT the problem is. It is not a case of learning what a van can do, it IS LEARNING how to overcome the judder by the only way possible and that is to slip the clutch!

By adapting your driving to " what said vehicle can do" is not the solution. You should be able to drive the vehicle like any other vehicle and that is to pull away or reverse smoothly, without any judder or by using excessive revs.

Why is it wrong to expect the performance of a new van to be less than the old one. If anything, with modern designs, it should be better!

I note you live in Somerset, I live in Somerset. You come and drive my van and see what happens.

[oldlowie]

DJP - 2011-05-26 9:37 AM

 

It is not a case of learning what a van can do, it IS LEARNING how to overcome the judder by the only way possible and that is to slip the clutch!

 

 

What's wrong with slipping the clutch? It's just another driving technique.

 

Surely we all have to do it when we level up, or should we expect to have 1st gear fully engaged when driving the 2 feet onto the levelling block?

 

I have to slip the clutch to reverse up my steep curved drive; it's how I control the speed. (!)

[DJP]

oldlowie - 2011-05-26 10:00 AM

 

DJP - 2011-05-26 9:37 AM

 

It is not a case of learning what a van can do, it IS LEARNING how to overcome the judder by the only way possible and that is to slip the clutch!

 

 

What's wrong with slipping the clutch? It's just another driving technique.

 

Surely we all have to do it when we level up, or should we expect to have 1st gear fully engaged when driving the 2 feet onto the levelling block?

 

I have to slip the clutch to reverse up my steep curved drive; it's how I control the speed. (!)

 

There are odd occasions when you do have to slip the clutch i.e. moving onto levelling blocks or when having to move extremely slowly within a manoeuvre.

 

I have to slip my clutch ALL the time when reversing or the van would shake itself to bits. Result of your advice NEW CLUTCH REQUIRED at 12000 miles.

Driving style? Yes, but only on rare occasions NOT part of EVERY reversing manoeuvre!

 

I have to reverse 50 yds back into my drive along a very flat narrow roadway. I either have to slip the clutch or reverse at an unsafe speed (@1300RPM) I choose to slip the clutch to avoid the judder and possible collisions or running someone over!

You should be able to release the clutch on tick over and reverse back with no need to slip the clutch or increase the revs. Something I have been able to do on ALL my other motorhomes in the past and yes some were Fiat based (2.8JTD) 5 speed.