Juddergate Again

[Guest JudgeMental]

and so does my transit based Euramobil judder in reverse up a slope with attendent clutch smell....what do I do? I avoid reversing, and drive front up and reverse back down instead *-)

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

I have to say that in over 45 years of driving I cannot recall ever being so aware of reverse judder, and with my current van (2003) did not think much about it until I started reading some of these forums. I'm sure it must of happened in some of the old crates I used to drive over the years, oddly the car that most sticks in my memory as being one of the most pleasurable to drive was a Fiat Mirafiori, drove like a swiss watch, and no judder either. Just a pity it just rusted away before your eyes :'(

[Mike88]

The judder issue is difficult to explain for 3 litre owners at least.

 

Both the manual and Comfortmatic gearboxes have identical gear ratios and clutches yet early manual versions are prone to judder and the Comfortmatic versions are not.

 

The conclusion SOME might draw is that the Comfortmatic gearbox is driven more efficiently by a computer than the manual box can be driven by a human.

 

Is there any other possible explanation?

 

 

As regards Tracker's comments I'm afraid he is incorrect and out of date. This is an extract from his post:

 

"Surely the point is that on an expensive bit of recently designed kit this is an issue that should never be - but still Fiat lie and continue to produce suspect vans and we - well some of us - are not helping our own cause by continuing to buy them new and s/h".

 

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Tracker and others should note that the current position taken from earlier posts by Nick of Euroserve and Andy Stothert is that all 2.3 litre and 3 litre X250 Fiat's manufactured after mid 2009 have clutches made out of a different material so should now be OK. This is precisely what was said:

 

"Andy Stothert

 

3 litre 6 speed manual models

 

A Fiat employee who has been reliable throughout this debacle has stated that since mid 2009 the clutch lining spec has been changed to lessen or remove the tendency for the clutch to overheat too readily when reversed in extreme circumstances and slipping the clutch to control the speed of the vehicle. This does seem to backed up by a lack of 3 litre models which have incinerated their clutches recently.

 

Euroserve

 

I can confirm what Andy said regarding upgraded clutches for the 3.0 engine.

 

The message is clear..... you cannot trust a van that has not been modified and was built before April 2009. Check any potential used purchase very thoroughly".

 

 

I would also mirror Judge's comment about the Transit. The clutch on mine did not judder but stank to high heaven when used in reverse.

[rolandrat]

Mike, I have the 3 ltr manual version registered in May 2009 and I don't suffer with judder but I put it down to it being a lightweight Autotrail Tracker which because of the power output of the engine, over-rides the problem. I was advised to go for a 3ltr as my previous motorhome was a Mercedes and Autotrail had stopped building on them so I think it was sound advice on their part. I would have no problem with a 2.3 provided the reverse judder was eliminated so I'll keep on roadtesting them until it is resolved otherwise I'll order another 3ltr in due course.

[JamesFrance]

I have been reading about this subject on some French motorhome forums. I don't know if this has been the outcome here but for them Fiat seem to have dealt with those who have the problem.

 

The procedure seems to be to phone the Fiat Camper assistance international freephone number and they will arrange for one of their specialist workshops to do any necessary work.

 

The first step seems to be to have the motorhome weighed following which Fiat will decide what needs to be done, apparently their are 4 different possibilities. They will get the parts to the workshop who will carry out the modifications. If one of the simpler mods is not enough they will continue with other steps.

 

Several French posters seem to have been well satisfied by the outcome and say that Fiat will deal with this even if the vehicle is out of guarantee. They also seem to have enjoyed their chats with the Italian ladies who they speak to. Translating to English using Google toolbar does give some rather interesting translations.

 

 

[rupert123]

James I agree with you, the judder seems to exist now only in the minds of some members of this forum, other forums dropped it long ago. Despite you quoteing reverse as well as first gear ratios a couple of recent posts are still saying first needs to be quoted. Do these people not read any posts but their own or is it a case of ' theres none so blind as those who cannot see'.

[Guest Tracker]

Mike88 - 2011-04-09 7:48 PM

 

As regards Tracker's comments I'm afraid he is incorrect and out of date. This is an extract from his post:

 

"Surely the point is that on an expensive bit of recently designed kit this is an issue that should never be - but still Fiat lie and continue to produce suspect vans and we - well some of us - are not helping our own cause by continuing to buy them new and s/h".

 

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Tracker and others should note that the current position taken from earlier posts by Nick of Euroserve and Andy Stothert is that all 2.3 litre and 3 litre X250 Fiat's manufactured after mid 2009 have clutches

.

 

 

Out of date eh? Not according to how I interpret recent postings? I don't feel inclined to trawl back to find them but please feel free to quote the actual postings that you refer to in defence of the X250.

 

My understanding is that the current gearbox casing is not able to accomodate a low enough reverse gear cogwheel and although the current reverse gear is a little lower than before, plus the engine mountings and the clutch have been modified the problem still exists both in new post 09 and in used models of all ages although it does seem that not every van is affected.

 

Also be aware that even though your new van might be new to you the chassis base might still be pre 09 - something else to check with Fiat by chassis number before parting with your had earned.

 

I stand by what I said - buyer beware - try before you buy and be prepared to accept that even if the van you are buying does not judder when you buy it the fault can still develop.

 

I look forward to being proven wrong because sooner or later we may want to change our van but as things stand I still would not buy one new or used.

 

By keeping the topic alive we are at least giving new members the opportunity of making their own informed judgement which was sadly lacking in the pre Andy Stothert days and we have a lot to thank Andy for.

[Mike88]

Tracker

 

My post directly quotes from earlier posts from Andy Stothert and Euroserve as I had copied and pasted their replies to my computer. I have no intention of trawling back through these threads but others are welcome to..

 

But my concern is that you profess to know more about the X250 situation than people with accredited expertise who in the form of Nick manages a fleet of X250's. Your latest post about the gear casing possibly has more than an element of truth in it but Fiat have found a way around it by modifying the clutch. I don't disagree with your latest post either about checking manufacturing dates. But your original post clearly advised people not to buy the X250 on the basis of totally inaccurate information.

 

The reason for my earlier post was that your original comments were not only inaccurate but highly misleading and unbalanced ignoring the fact that the clutch had been modified.

 

Of course if people want to take your layman's opinions as gospel then that is their right but I hope that some at least will at least consider the advice forthcoming from a professional who I quoted in my earlier post.

 

I appreciate from earlier threads that you like to have the last word so go ahead as I have no intention of engaging in an argument with you on this issue. The purpose of my posts has been only to inject a semblance of balance.

[Guest Tracker]

Mike - I have no desire to fall out with you and as this conversation is being carried on without rancour long may that continue.

 

It's not about having the last word - it's about helping new buyers make informed choices and your suggestion that all is well with all X250 transmissions could be seen as misleading?

 

Unless I misread them your quotes from Andy & Nick appeared to refer to 3.0 ltr models only - but the vast majority of Motorhomes are not on 3.0 engined base vehicles?

 

At no point have I ever claimed to be an expert and neither am I an owner but having followed this story since 2008 and having driven a couple of the 2008 variety I do reckon to have learnt something about the subject - with respect, how long have you been following it?

 

I note that you are the owner of a 3.0 ltr comfortmatic - with respect may I ask, did you have experience of a smaller engined X250 to support your own views? If so how was it in reverse please? Have you driven any manual versions and tried reversing them uphill or in a confined space? Did the furore help you decide on an auto or was it a lucky choice? You don't mind me asking I hope?

 

I too like to see fairness and balance and when I see postings saying that all is now good with the X250's transmission I tend to try and put that in perspective as there have been several recent postings suggesting that all is still not well with new and newer X250s 2.3 engined variants.

 

Now I may well have missed the postings from owners of smaller engined vans telling us that their vans are perfect and I for one would welcome seeing a few of those as a confidence booster.

 

I don't want to see the UK Motorhome industry suffer any more as a result of Fiat's poor design and backup as it is nobody's interest for that to happen.

 

However I would rather err on the side of caution and advise ANYONE thinking of buying ANY modern Fiat, Peugeot or Citroen based van from 2007 onwards to err on the side of caution with their money and thoroughly test drive - including uphill backwards - before paying.

 

I don't think that is unreasonable - do you?

[Mike88]

Tracker.

 

As you have asked me a series of questions it is only polite that I should reply.

 

My first post was about the 3 litre and you will see from my earlier post that I had made that perfectly clear in my opening sentence. However, your post was warning others against all X 250's and I was merely pointing out that modifications had been made which you had not alluded to so gave an incorrect impression.

 

You ask if I had experience of smaller engined X250's to support my views. The answer is No but you misunderstand me. I have not expressed any views of my own on the X250; I was merely quoting from people more expert than myself.

 

My posts did not refer to 2.3 litre versions as I do not own one and therefore am not qualified to comment. But as you have raised doubt about the 2.3 litre then this is my latest understanding of the situation taken from a post by Andy Stothert in September 2010.

 

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Andy Stothert wrote:

 

"2.2 litre 5 speed models

 

There have (thus far) been no component failures on the 2.2 5 speed models which can be laid directly at the door of the reverse gear ratio, BUT, from mid 2009 these were produced with a modfiied gearbox which incorporated a lower ratio.

 

2.2 litre 6 speed Peugeot, and 2.3 litre 6 speed Fiats

 

There has been only one gearbox failure on any of the 2000 plus vans modified by Fiat to include the lower ratio reverse gear, and from what the owner tells me I don't think the damage was caused by a failure in Fiat's engineering, as it doesn't quite fit the usual pattern. More likely driver abuse by the previous owner.

 

There don't seem to have been any clutch or gearbox failures on the latest production gearboxes made since mid 2009.

 

Any risk now seems to be restricted to buying a van made before the modified gearbox was put into production and which has not had the modifications done.

 

There is slight fly in the ointment here as a few 2.3 litre 6 speed Fiats have been produced carrying very heavy coachbuilt bodies on the 4 ton plus chassis, and the modifications, which seem adequate on the lighter 3.3 and 3.5 ton vehicles, are obviously less effective on the bigger ones. It would be probably best to avoid a 2.3 litre Fiat on a 4 ton (or above) chassis whether it has been modified or not".

 

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The full thread is here:

 

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=20761&start=1

 

I would be the first to admit that Fiat have handled the judder issue very badly and I have criticised them in the past on many occasions. But that was then and this is now. In the light of developments it is unfair to rubbish all X250's and that was my point all along.

 

Given that you have followed the situation closely since 2008, I presume you disagree with the points Andy Stothert has made. You are entitled to your opinion of course but in the interests of balance others need to be made aware of the fact that modifications have been made across the X250 range.

 

I hope this clarifies my position.

[hymer1942]

Hi All, one thing is certain, a problem there is whichever way you look at it. AND A FIAT I WILL NOT BE BUYING. Barrie

[JamesFrance]

No need to shout. Everyone has their opinions but some give a reasoned explanation.

 

I remember the early Mercedes Hymers. People used to support them at both ends on axle stands so that they could sleep.

[Guest Tracker]

Fair enough Mike - thanks for the clarification and it seems we are each coming at this from different directions?

 

You from the standpoint of 3.0 litre vans not least because you have one and are better placed to comment as you have no problems reversing?

 

Me from the standpoint of the vast majority of vans which are 2.2 and 2.3 manual, and it is these which, as I understand recent postings, continue to give concern both to newer vans and to 'modified' older vans as well as any that remain unmodified and are now out of warranty.

 

Andy Stothert's comments appear to refer to component failure - somthing of which he has had some repeated personal experience on his own, I think 2.3 but I could be wrong - panel van conversion. As I recall Andy was less than impressed with Fiat and less than impressed with the modificatiuons to his van at the time they were carried out?

 

Maybe his van has settled down to an acceptable level after a few miles or maybe he is so fed up with that he has decided not to pursue it - or maybe Fiat have leaned on him to stop as part of the deal for fixing it, or maybe Warners have leaned on him for fear of not getting vans to test? This Paragraph is of course hypothesis on my part based on rumours and the complete absense of any unfavourable comments on any van in any road tests for over a year? How else will buyers know?

 

Component failure is not the same as judder and I am not rubbishing all X250s. However what I am doing is drawing attention to the fact that whilst some 2.2 and 2.3 engined vans might be OK it is unwise to assume that they all are and a very thorough test drive, including reversing, is advisable for ANY van whatever it's make model and motive power - but particularly any manual X250.

 

I hope this clarifies my position too!

 

Or shall we just politely agree to disagree?

[Mel B]

At the risk of getting my head chopped off, it is all down to interpreting what is actually said:

 

Mike88 - 2011-04-10 4:10 PM

 

My posts did not refer to 2.3 litre versions as I do not own one and therefore am not qualified to comment. But as you have raised doubt about the 2.3 litre then this is my latest understanding of the situation taken from a post by Andy Stothert in September 2010.

 

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Andy Stothert wrote:

 

There is slight fly in the ointment here as a few 2.3 litre 6 speed Fiats have been produced carrying very heavy coachbuilt bodies on the 4 ton plus chassis, and the modifications, which seem adequate on the lighter 3.3 and 3.5 ton vehicles, are obviously less effective on the bigger ones. It would be probably best to avoid a 2.3 litre Fiat on a 4 ton (or above) chassis whether it has been modified or not".

 

 

In my book ' adequate' does not actually mean 'fixed', or that the problem has definitely gone away. I sincerely hope it has but only more time will tell for sure.

[Mike88]

Tracker

 

When you said this:

 

".............................................but still Fiat lie and continue to produce suspect vans and we - well some of us - are not helping our own cause by continuing to buy them new and s/h".

 

I took this to mean that you were rubbishing all Fiat vans; how could anyone think anything else? But never mind I think we are done. I agree that we should agree to disagree.

[Minstrel]

Which is the best to buy, Mercedes, Renault, Ford, Peugeot, Citroen or Fiat?

 

Has anyone heard anything good or bad about the new Renault. Is the Mercedes due for a revamp?

[flicka]

Re Mike & Trackers posts -

The Sevel build X/250 3.0 litre is NOT IMMUNE from the reverse gear judder fault, but the reports I have read have only mentioned the Manual version.

 

A recent Owner's review in MMM March 2011, page 179, on a Pilote Reference 730 (Peugeot 3.0 litre 157bhp) in the Faults paragraph and in Facts & Figures section refers to juddering reverse gear problems.

[rupert123]

flicka - 2011-04-11 10:07 PM

 

Re Mike & Trackers posts -

The Sevel build X/250 3.0 litre is NOT IMMUNE from the reverse gear judder fault, but the reports I have read have only mentioned the Manual version.

 

A recent Owner's review in MMM March 2011, page 179, on a Pilote Reference 730 (Peugeot 3.0 litre 157bhp) in the Faults paragraph and in Facts & Figures section refers to juddering reverse gear problems.

 

For goodness shake, a judder in reverse gear can and will happen to any make of M/H under certain circumstances, it is not uncommon. The Fiat problem was that some people could not cope with a higher reverse gear and cooked the clutch or the vibration caused a few gearbox failure,s. Their have, as far as I am aware, been no reports of either happening on newer models or modified ones. Ford have a higher reverse than first and members on here have reported a judder, so what, it causes no other problems. When you have a 4 ton van with a small diesel trying to reverse up a steep slope the chances are some judder will occur.

[PCC]

Minstrel

 

Regarding revamps, I think the next base to have a major revamp will be the Ford Transit. Was due to be next year but may not arrive until 2013. It will be a 'global' model also replacing the E Series van in the States so it may be bigger than the current model and I'd be surprised if there wasn't an auto option (can't imagine it selling well in the States without auto).

 

Peter

[Mel B]

rupert123 - 2011-04-11 10:45 PM

 

For goodness shake, a judder in reverse gear can and will happen to any make of M/H under certain circumstances, it is not uncommon. The Fiat problem was that some people could not cope with a higher reverse gear and cooked the clutch or the vibration caused a few gearbox failure,s.

 

Sorry Rupert, but in the interests of fairness, the problem was caused by faults with the VEHICLE in the majority of cases I believe, not by the inadequacies of drivers, and the gearbox failure and problems are, I believe, for more than a few vans - otherwise Fiat would NOT have undertaken the remedial work they have. :-S

 

Their have, as far as I am aware, been no reports of either happening on newer models or modified ones.

 

I hope that is definitely the case, only time will tell.

:-|

[DJP]

Where do i start?

The Comformatic and manual gearboxes are the same regarding ratios. The Comformatic overcomes the judder by slipping the clutch. Wait for the clutch failures coming soon.

 

The "new" friction material is softer than the "old" material. This will reduce the number of slipping clutches by reducing the risk of the plate and flywheel surfaces becoming highly polished allowing slip under load. The "new" material does NOT stop the judder. I have had a new clutch with the "new" material. The judder is the same.

 

The gearbox in the 2007 models is the same spec as the current 2011 models.

 

James France in referring to French forums is correct in what he says ONLY IF you have a 2.3 ltr of any vintage. This does NOT apply to ANY 3.0ltr models.

 

Any driver can overcome the judder. It is not difficult. Any driver can create judder again, not difficult. It all

revolves around clutch control. Slip it = no judder, No slip=judder.

 

Euroserve

 

I can confirm what Andy said regarding upgraded clutches for the 3.0 engine.

 

They are NOT upgraded. It was just a change of material. LUK who make clutches for Fiat X250 state, but not openly that the clutch in the X250 is suitable for vehicles up to 157bhp as specified by Fiat. This does not leave any safety margin for 3.0 ltr. The specification was for a van (read white van man) with a van and engine of 3.0ltr and on average MGVW of 3 ton (white van man with his boxes on board for part of the day) They, I believe were not specified for 4 or 5 ton motorhome with a permanent weight in that region. That is why the lighter vans Tracker etc do not suffer as much as heavier TAG axle vehicles with judder. The motorhome cab market to Fiat is very small in the global market compared to white van man. It was him the van was made. Not us.

[aultymer]

"For goodness shake, a judder in reverse gear can and will happen to any make of M/H under certain circumstances, it is not uncommon. The Fiat problem was that some people could not cope with a higher reverse gear and cooked the clutch or the vibration caused a few gearbox failure,s. Their have, as far as I am aware, been no reports of either happening on newer models or modified ones. Ford have a higher reverse than first and members on here have reported a judder, so what, it causes no other problems. When you have a 4 ton van with a small diesel trying to reverse up a steep slope the chances are some judder will occur."

 

What a load of rubbish!

Do you work as an apologist for Fiat?

Even Fiat have admitted there was a problem. So why do you cling to the mantra of 'it's the drivers fault'?

I have not had a judder problem in either of my motorhomes - luckily I did enough research before buying to know that buying a Fiat was a lottery - with the odds not in the buyers favour.

The size of the engine does not matter - if you get the gearing right!!!

Since you are not aware of any problems with modified or new vans, you should perhaps do a search where you will find that Fiat say there is no problem but owners say otherwise.

Buying a Fiat based van is a triumph of hope over experience (other peoples).

 

[brom]

Wheel size may affect reversing characteristics on 3-litre X250s?

 

With the 3 litre engine/manual gearbox, I found that the reversing behaviour was worse with the Maxi chassis, which has 16inch wheels instead of the 15inch of normal models. I don't claim to be a technical expert, but it seems to me that, if the gearing isn't changed between the Maxi chassis and normal chassis, then the use of 16 inch wheels will raise the gearing throughout. Going forwards, the gearing on the Maxi chassis van was such that I changed gear on the flat (by ear) at 35mph to 4th, 45mph to 5th and 55mph to top - which I found quite normal. Reversing the heavy (4005kg) coachbuilt up hill, it wasn't happy - slip the clutch carefully to reduce vibration, and I got the smell of burning cheese after a while, indicating that the clutch was suffering. I felt the gearing was rather too high, though the end result was nothing like as bad as on some early X250's I have driven.

 

On another 3-litre manual coachbuilt, which had 15 inch wheels, I found the forward gearing very odd - I had to change up much earlier. It doesn't feel right to me to hit 5th gear at 38mph, but that was what it called for, and 6th at 45mph. At 70mph, it was fair revving.

 

However, that van could reverse up a wet grassy slope, no sweat - I felt because the gearing was lower. Does that make sense?

 

Incidentally, my own Trannie Mk 7 (front-wheel drive, 2.2 litre PVC), also has to be treated with some respect and consideration when reversing uphill, especially if I need to turn a corner at the same time. So does my (otherwise estimable) Fiat Doblo car. It seems that many modern designs have a reversing gear higher than I think sensible, and I have no idea why. Surely they should be as low as possible?

 

I have mentioned these characteristics in the relevant test reports, as it is something I try to check, if a suitable, safe hill can be found - not always possible.

 

Brom

[rupert123]

Mel B - 2011-04-12 6:23 PM

 

rupert123 - 2011-04-11 10:45 PM

 

For goodness shake, a judder in reverse gear can and will happen to any make of M/H under certain circumstances, it is not uncommon. The Fiat problem was that some people could not cope with a higher reverse gear and cooked the clutch or the vibration caused a few gearbox failure,s.

 

Sorry Rupert, but in the interests of fairness, the problem was caused by faults with the VEHICLE in the majority of cases I believe, not by the inadequacies of drivers, and the gearbox failure and problems are, I believe, for more than a few vans - otherwise Fiat would NOT have undertaken the remedial work they have. :-S

 

Their have, as far as I am aware, been no reports of either happening on newer models or modified ones.

 

I hope that is definitely the case, only time will tell.

:-|

 

Mel I just re-read my post and admit I could have made my meaning clearer. The thread started off about new vans and I feel people are now going on about judder or vibration, call it what you will, as a fault in itself. This is not always the case and can be down to the driver but will on it own cause no problems so why do people keep on about it. The problems came from a reverse that was a little to high so people slipped the clutch badly and burnt them out or in extreme cases two cogs in the box touched and box broke. It is a simple fact that most coped ok with this so driver care certainly came into it. Fiat then offered a fix and have now modified the 2.3 box. As I said I have heard of no failures from a fix properly done or one with the new box. The reverse in the 2.3, I have no experience of the 3 ltr, was to high but it has been modified and having driven a new 2.3 Swift two weeks ago it is fine. It can still be made to judder I have no doubt if you try but any van can.

[rupert123]

aultymer - 2011-04-12 9:46 PM

 

"For goodness shake, a judder in reverse gear can and will happen to any make of M/H under certain circumstances, it is not uncommon. The Fiat problem was that some people could not cope with a higher reverse gear and cooked the clutch or the vibration caused a few gearbox failure,s. Their have, as far as I am aware, been no reports of either happening on newer models or modified ones. Ford have a higher reverse than first and members on here have reported a judder, so what, it causes no other problems. When you have a 4 ton van with a small diesel trying to reverse up a steep slope the chances are some judder will occur."

 

What a load of rubbish!

Do you work as an apologist for Fiat?

Even Fiat have admitted there was a problem. So why do you cling to the mantra of 'it's the drivers fault'?

I have not had a judder problem in either of my motorhomes - luckily I did enough research before buying to know that buying a Fiat was a lottery - with the odds not in the buyers favour.

The size of the engine does not matter - if you get the gearing right!!!

Since you are not aware of any problems with modified or new vans, you should perhaps do a search where you will find that Fiat say there is no problem but owners say otherwise.

Buying a Fiat based van is a triumph of hope over experience (other peoples).

 

Umm, perhaps you can explain your comments a bit more, what vans you owned are you refering to, both Fiat and Ford have a high reverse so will judder if you try hard enough. What search do you suggest, perhaps you can point me to a few cases of new or properly modified Fiats blowing up gearboxes etc. Where did I say it is the drivers fault, I simply implied some cope better than others. I look forward to your considered and factual answers.