Tomo3090 Posted May 1, 2011 Share Posted May 1, 2011 Haven't Euro 5 engines been around in the commercial world for a bit now. I was driving, Mercs, Scania, Volvo, Renault, DAF, and MAN trucks with these engines last year, so they're not THAT new. It's the Adblue that is added to them that will make your eyes water. It's £12 a gallon to buy, commercially, and stinks to high heaven. Someone told me it's made from pig wee! I can't confirm this chemically but from the smell I would not argue! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flicka Posted May 1, 2011 Share Posted May 1, 2011 Tomo3090 - 2011-05-01 10:33 PM Haven't Euro 5 engines been around in the commercial world for a bit now. I was driving, Mercs, Scania, Volvo, Renault, DAF, and MAN trucks with these engines last year, so they're not THAT new. It's the Adblue that is added to them that will make your eyes water. It's £12 a gallon to buy, commercially, and stinks to high heaven. Someone told me it's made from pig wee! I can't confirm this chemically but from the smell I would not argue! Some answers:- Why do I need to use AdBlue? AdBlue is used by an advanced pollution control technology installed in the exhaust system called Selective Catalytic Reduction or SCR. SCR systems work by reacting AdBlue with the harmful NOx gases in the exhaust to form harmless water and nitrogen. NOx is an abbreviation for nitrogen oxide gases, which are produced during the combustion process in diesel engines and are one of the main components of atmospheric pollution. It is important to ensure that you always have an adequate supply of AdBlue in the tank. If a truck or bus with an SCR system is operated without AdBlue, then there is risk that the complex SCR equipment will be damaged, and the emissions will not meet legal requirements. The driver would also experience a loss of engine power until the vehicle is refilled with AdBlue. What is Euro 4 and 5? Euro 4 is a new standard in Europe that limits the amount of harmful pollutants from commercial vehicles, and was implemented in October 2006. Euro 5 is the next, more stringent standard and will be fully implemented by October 2009. In some countries, Great Britain Included there are tax incentives for investing in Euro 5 vehicles before the regulations enter effect. What does AdBlue cost? The cost of AdBlue varies depending on where and how you buy it. AdBlue is not taxed like diesel (although VAT applies), and normally costs about half of the price of diesel. (insert:- BUT THIS STATEMENT APPLIES TO BULK PURCHAES) In most driving conditions, the cost of AdBlue will be more than offset by savings on diesel fuel consumption. How much AdBlue will I use? As a rough rule, average AdBlue consumption will be about 5% of diesel use. Therefore for motorway driving you will use about 1.5 litres per 100 km. What is AdBlue made from? AdBlue is a made from a chemical called urea (sometimes called carbamide) dissolved in pure water. Urea is a synthetic product, generally manufactured from natural gas, and is used in chemical fertilizers, plastics, and cosmetics. AdBlue is not made from recycled agricultural products. (insert:- SO SYNTHETIC PIG PEE ) (lol) (lol) Is AdBlue affected by extreme weather conditions? AdBlue can be used in all European conditions. If the temperature of AdBlue drops below -11°C in extremely cold weather, it freezes. Therefore AdBlue pumps in the Nordic countries and other cold areas are heated to resist winter problems. Some SCR trucks have heating systems, which ensures stable operation of the SCR system, even in the coldest weather. AdBlue that is frozen is not damaged in any way, and can be used as soon as it has defrosted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 Thanks John - I think there is enough info there for me not to want a Euro 5 van just yet! It all smacks of smoke and mirrors to me - or should that be snake pee - when the only way in real life that engineers and designers can make their engines meet pollution targets set by politicians in their unreal surroundings at ivory towers is by artificially adding yet more chemicals and yet more complex and expensive electronics? It was a black day for motorists when the bonkers brigade first introduced catalytic converters - especially as cats do nothing for economy and add up to 15% to fuel usage - instead of developing lean burn just to keep the Californians happy and things have only gone more and more complex ever since. I am not against progress, and modern vehicles have much to commend them over those of yesteryear, but this is getting ridiculous - you couldn't have made it not so many years ago! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 flicka - 2011-05-01 11:18 PM ...................... Some answers:- Why do I need to use AdBlue? AdBlue is used by an advanced pollution control technology installed in the exhaust system called Selective Catalytic Reduction or SCR. SCR systems work by reacting AdBlue with the harmful NOx gases in the exhaust to form harmless water and nitrogen. NOx is an abbreviation for nitrogen oxide gases, which are produced during the combustion process in diesel engines and are one of the main components of atmospheric pollution. It is important to ensure that you always have an adequate supply of AdBlue in the tank. If a truck or bus with an SCR system is operated without AdBlue, then there is risk that the complex SCR equipment will be damaged, and the emissions will not meet legal requirements. ................... If the temperature of AdBlue drops below -11°C in extremely cold weather, it freezes. Therefore AdBlue pumps in the Nordic countries and other cold areas are heated to resist winter problems. Some SCR trucks have heating systems, which ensures stable operation of the SCR system, even in the coldest weather. AdBlue that is frozen is not damaged in any way, and can be used as soon as it has defrosted. Oh goody! No AdBlue risks damaging the SCR. AdBlue freezes below -11. -11 is deemed adequate frost protection for Europe, except the Nordic countries where it gets colder and SCR heaters are fitted. So, you go skiing in the Alps, where the temp can drop way below -11, or you make a late season run to a "Nordic" country, and get caught by unseasonably cold weather. Un-noticed, your AdBlue freezes and you drive home, in the process damaging the ADR. You probably won't know of the damage until the first MoT, by which time your van is out of warranty. I wonder how much the replacement kit costs? Any offers?Don't folk realise that these vehicles are liable travel all over Europe, and don't just stay in the zone in which they are registered? Sure most will, but many won't. Should they all carry a warning "Do not Drive North of Latitude 55, or above 1,500 metres, in winter"? :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolandrat Posted May 3, 2011 Author Share Posted May 3, 2011 Having discussed at length with a well qualified Fiat Technician about the reverse gear problem on the X250 and his experience of removing and replacing NUMEROUS gearbox components the actual reverse gear itself has a difference of ONE TOOTH. The engine mounts have been uprated, the clutch, lighter, the clutch operating pipe components strenthened, a new shaft and bearings and the reverse gear. Only components deemed necessary to be replaced are actually done. As regards previous comments about there being a 10% difference between the original and replacement reverse gear I think we can safely disregard them. I for one will never ever consider buying a 2.3 with the present transmission arrangement. All that seems to have been achieved is the dampening down of the judder, it will always be there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arthur49 Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 Here is my experience having owned and used a 2009 x250 2.3 6 speed Fiat based coachbuilt. We owned it from new for 18 months and did 10,000 miles in it. 7.3m long (so fair old overhang) and, fully laden about 3400kg (max permitted 3500kg) with about 1800kg on rear axle. We've traded it in now but only because we wanted a PVC and a different layout. We test drove van before spending our cash. No trace of judder/shudder/vibration but I did think it was a bit high geared in reverse. After about 2000 miles we still had no judder/shudder/vibration in reverse but it was too fast going backwards. You had to slip the clutch to maintain a safe speed. It was for this reason that I had the mods done - mountings, reverse gear etc, all under warranty and I'm grateful to all who fought with Fiat before I took delivery . On collection, first thing was a test drive in reverse. Excellent. I have no idea how many teeth existed on original gear, nor were on new one, but van was now safe and much slower in reverse. No need to slip clutch. No change going forwards either, so no tampering had been done to final drive ratio. Our new PVC is 2.2 6 speed Pug on x250 and an absolute dream to drive, forwards and backwards. Would I buy an x250 Fiat again? Yes, the only reason ours is a Pug is thats what Autocruise decided to use! Would I buy secondhand? Absolutely, but subject to test drive. Arthur Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 rolandrat - 2011-05-03 10:13 AM All that seems to have been achieved is the dampening down of the judder, it will always be there. Round and round we go with this....... ....All I can say is mine reverses a slowly as I want on a steep hill and behaves impeccably. Probably the nicest base vehicle around especially for a panel van conversion......your loss! :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 JudgeMental - 2011-05-03 3:07 PM rolandrat - 2011-05-03 10:13 AM All that seems to have been achieved is the dampening down of the judder, it will always be there. Round and round we go with this....... ....All I can say is mine reverses a slowly as I want on a steep hill and behaves impeccably. Probably the nicest base vehicle around especially for a panel van conversion......your loss! :D Waste of breath Eddie, their are a small handfull of people on here who will never, ever, accept this. They love living in the past and continue to take notice of 'experts' who appear to know very little. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 I've held off posting about judder untill I had tried van on a realy bad hill, and last week in Forest of Bowland I had to reverse (a short distance) up such a hill. I've driven early X250's that have juddered, and I'm well aware what conditions caused this, so when purchasing the van I tested in the only way availible, this was with increasing handbrake pressure, not conclusive but no steep slopes on grass availible BTW I've never had one judder on tarmac, even on Whelsh hills. So last week I had to reverse up a very steep rough drive, and negotiate a 'chicane', on early vans this would have caused the van to judder like a good'un. This time I could detect maybe the faintest hint of judder, but absolutly nothing to worry about as I think the conditions where such that any vehicle would have done the same. The next morning I drove up the same slope forward and that wasn't particuly easy, proving to me that my van has no problem with judder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aultymer Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 I don't see any harm in this topic being kept alive in order to warn prospective buyers of the possibility of being 'sold a pup'. Now I know that no one on here would be less than honest about a juddering vehicle, but there are people (and dealers) who just want rid of a van and will not warn buyers about the troubled history of this marque. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onecal Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 Hi, I still wonder what is going to be done for all the FIAT owners who have been affected by this problem. Hmmmm, lets wait and see, Tracker I don't think I would even bother test driving one at this stage, result Judder,judder. Joking aside they have some lovely motorhomes built on them and are many a persons pride and joy so lets hope FIAT does someting for the large amount of motorhomers with older FIATs Regards, Brendan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 onecal vw - 2011-05-03 7:43 PM Joking aside they have some lovely motorhomes built on them and are many a persons pride and joy so lets hope FIAT does someting for the large amount of motorhomers with older FIATs Regards, Brendan If Brendan, by older Fiats, you mean those well tried tested and approved of the pre X250's - then yes I have to agree there are some lovely vans built on them! They are also, in my view generally better made with more durable and solid fittings and furniture. Progress is a strange thing because when the base vehicle gets bigger and heavier, partly for safety considerations but mainly for fashion, to compensate, the converters have to reduce the weight of the conversion to hopefully, but not neccessarily, still give a respectable payload. I still think you can't beat a late (2005 / 6) Peugeot 2.2 hdi chassis cab with Alko chassis for a very good ride / handling / performance / economy / reliability / compromise? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onecal Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 Ah well thats progress Tracker, I sometimes wonder, Regards, Brendan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhorsf Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 Tracker - 2011-05-03 8:03 PM onecal vw - 2011-05-03 7:43 PM Joking aside they have some lovely motorhomes built on them and are many a persons pride and joy so lets hope FIAT does someting for the large amount of motorhomers with older FIATs Regards, Brendan If Brendan, by older Fiats, you mean those well tried tested and approved of the pre X250's - then yes I have to agree there are some lovely vans built on them! They are also, in my view generally better made with more durable and solid fittings and furniture. Progress is a strange thing because when the base vehicle gets bigger and heavier, partly for safety considerations but mainly for fashion, to compensate, the converters have to reduce the weight of the conversion to hopefully, but not neccessarily, still give a respectable payload. I still think you can't beat a late (2005 / 6) Peugeot 2.2 hdi chassis cab with Alko chassis for a very good ride / handling / performance / economy / reliability / compromise? I am sure tracker you realise this opinion you hold above is a biased one, based on the fact that you own one of these ! you have along with others on here at every opportunity said you will not buy an x250 do us all a favour and change the record! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 jhorsf - 2011-05-03 10:57 PM I am sure tracker you realise this opinion you hold above is a biased one, based on the fact that you own one of these ! you have along with others on here at every opportunity said you will not buy an x250 do us all a favour and change the record! Of course my opinion is biased - EVERYONE'S opinion is biased as it is based on the vehicles that they have owned / driven / currently own! Everytime someone posts to say how wonderful and trouble free THEIR own X250 is I post to redress the balance because they are NOT ALL wonderful and trouble free! This would particularly apply to any 'unfixed' ones on dealers forecourts sold by disillusioned first owners and now out of warranty. I am happy to accept, based on the experience of others, that a higher proportion of new vans are much better than before, but for anyone buying used it is a lottery of a narrow and undefined window of production so far for 'normal' vans and we would not wish to lull secondhand buyers into a false sense of security now would we? Let the buyer beware. Simples! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolandrat Posted May 4, 2011 Author Share Posted May 4, 2011 I couldn't agree with you more Rich, well said. This forum is all about personal experiences and passing them on to help others who might want friendly help or advice. To slag people off is a no no. There are X250's out there that according to their owners are trouble free, well good luck to them but there are also many owners out there that do have genuine problems. The transmission problem has been around for some considerable time and will continue because some owners have bit the bullet and got rid. I can't remember any knowledgeable EXPERT saying how many teeth the reverse gear actually has, if he would like to know from someone who is far from being an expert then by all means ask. When the transmission problem was explained to me it was a very experienced Fiat Technician who told me and I have no reason whatsoever to doubt him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onecal Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 Hi, I hope the FIAT expert does know how much the reverse gear has been dropped. I also hope both he and the other experts may be able to help out the large amount of people that are having trouble with this. Reports I am getting back are , not all judder is gone as yet ,but yes an improvement. Now thats something, but for the amount of money people pay it's not acceptable. I have not got to work on a 2010 gearbox yet so I can not confirm the lower gearing. I am just wondering is there anything going to be done for all the people who own (older models) before 2010. Regards, Brendan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 rolandrat - 2011-05-04 10:02 AM I couldn't agree with you more Rich, well said. This forum is all about personal experiences and passing them on to help others who might want friendly help or advice. To slag people off is a no no. There are X250's out there that according to their owners are trouble free, well good luck to them but there are also many owners out there that do have genuine problems. The transmission problem has been around for some considerable time and will continue because some owners have bit the bullet and got rid. I can't remember any knowledgeable EXPERT saying how many teeth the reverse gear actually has, if he would like to know from someone who is far from being an expert then by all means ask. When the transmission problem was explained to me it was a very experienced Fiat Technician who told me and I have no reason whatsoever to doubt him. Roland I would agree with you that forums are about peoples personal experience so would be interested to know yours and Rich experience of owning and driving an X250 based vehicle. We have plenty of people now saying X250 no problems, perhaps you can point us all in the direction of the, in your words, 'the many owners who have genuine problems', they seem to be totaly absent on the forums now. Who cares how many teeth the gear may have as long as it cures the problem, which from reports it seems to do. It seems to me that because of the widely reported problems the slightest vibration from a Fiat based van in reverse is treated with a totally out of proportion reaction. It is well known, and has been mentioned on here that Transits have a high reverse as well. It would seem a bit of vibration in reverse on a well loaded van up a hill is not so unusual. The problem with some Fiats was the high reverse made some people slip the clutch and burn it out. Second problem the excessive vibration caused an internal clash of gears with the resulting gearbox explosion. Now the 'fix' is in place while you may get a bit of vibration at times this in itself is not a problem. If the clutch no longer burns out, the gearboxes stop exploding, problem cured. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolandrat Posted May 4, 2011 Author Share Posted May 4, 2011 I own a Fiat X250 3ltr manual tracker reg no YJ09AHC, it was purchased brand new from Richard Baldwins in May 2009 having been ordered at the motorhome show in October the previous year. I was advised to go for the 3ltr because of the transmission problem with the 2.3 and I will always be gratefull to the person who gave me that advice. Motorhomes are very expensive pieces of kit and I didn't want to buy a pup. It has been trouble free from day one. I did have to have a minor adjustment to the toilet door but other than that its been fine. My previous one was a Merc Cheyenne. The Fiat 3ltr is in a class of its own and you have to own one to appreciate its refinements. After road testing the 2.3ltr I wouldn't give it a parking space on my property but that is only my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onecal Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 "The problem with some Fiats was the high reverse made some people slip the clutch and burn it out. Second problem the excessive vibration caused an internal clash of gears with the resulting gearbox explosion. Now the 'fix' is in place while you may get a bit of vibration at times this in itself is not a problem. If the clutch no longer burns out, the gearboxes stop exploding, problem cured" I think not. Not so on older models that may be a little overweight. The owners may as stated not be saying much on sites as the resale value has been hit hard. This should not be the case, as quoted above if the problem is CURED the FIX should be for ALL not just for those who purchased new motorhomes. Regards, Brendan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 onecal vw - 2011-05-04 2:27 PM "The problem with some Fiats was the high reverse made some people slip the clutch and burn it out. Second problem the excessive vibration caused an internal clash of gears with the resulting gearbox explosion. Now the 'fix' is in place while you may get a bit of vibration at times this in itself is not a problem. If the clutch no longer burns out, the gearboxes stop exploding, problem cured" I think not. Not so on older models that may be a little overweight. The owners may as stated not be saying much on sites as the resale value has been hit hard. This should not be the case, as quoted above if the problem is CURED the FIX should be for ALL not just for those who purchased new motorhomes. Regards, Brendan As far as I'm aware all owners of 120/130 who have contacted Fiat about this have been offered the 'fix'. There are still questions about 100 and 160 which Fiat claim have not got a problem, but a few owners disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 onecal vw - 2011-05-04 2:27 PM "The problem with some Fiats was the high reverse made some people slip the clutch and burn it out. Second problem the excessive vibration caused an internal clash of gears with the resulting gearbox explosion. Now the 'fix' is in place while you may get a bit of vibration at times this in itself is not a problem. If the clutch no longer burns out, the gearboxes stop exploding, problem cured" I think not. Not so on older models that may be a little overweight. The owners may as stated not be saying much on sites as the resale value has been hit hard. This should not be the case, as quoted above if the problem is CURED the FIX should be for ALL not just for those who purchased new motorhomes. Regards, Brendan Brendan their is no evidence at all that the resale value of these vans has been hit. In the last year the Glass's commercial guide, which also lists most popular vans, has shown no abnormal trends in there value, where does your info come from? Their has also been no reluctance to buy them in BCA M/H auctions or any fall in value here that is unusual. The second hand value of the van tends to come from who converted it anyway rather than the base although a Mercedes base will usually fetch a small premium if a choice of base is availible. The fix is for ALL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 rolandrat - 2011-05-04 1:39 PM I own a Fiat X250 3ltr manual tracker reg no YJ09AHC, it was purchased brand new from Richard Baldwins in May 2009 having been ordered at the motorhome show in October the previous year. I was advised to go for the 3ltr because of the transmission problem with the 2.3 and I will always be gratefull to the person who gave me that advice. Motorhomes are very expensive pieces of kit and I didn't want to buy a pup. It has been trouble free from day one. I did have to have a minor adjustment to the toilet door but other than that its been fine. My previous one was a Merc Cheyenne. The Fiat 3ltr is in a class of its own and you have to own one to appreciate its refinements. After road testing the 2.3ltr I wouldn't give it a parking space on my property but that is only my opinion. Ah so your experience of the X250 is good. I assume you have the auto version as their have been a few complaints about the 3 ltr as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolandrat Posted May 4, 2011 Author Share Posted May 4, 2011 No, I have the manual version and as I have said, it is trouble free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onecal Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 So, Are you saying that ALL the old FIAT's with this problem are going to be fixed,,,,,,,,,,, If so great then yes the resale value will be fine,,,,but come on who in their right mind would want one otherwise... Regards, Brendan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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