Maybe its not a myth?...............

[rupert123]

I apolgise to the original writer but felt I must copy to here. At last a full explanation of the gas incident.

 

'Allo, it is I, René Francois Artois!

 

It was I who was responsible for the recently 'gassed' family in their Motorhome, we in France call them Camping Cars, and I would like to make a full confession.

 

After the War I moved from my Café in the little village of Nouvion in Northern France to Bourges where I opened a new Café at a Motorway Service Station

 

My lovely wife Edith, Yvette and Mimi came with me to help and I was lucky to also have Lieutenant Gruber who cooks in the kitchen and goes to the Cash and Carry in his little tank.

 

The incident happened when a family from Derby, I hear on the grapevine that Derby is the in-breeding capital of England but that may only be sordid gossip, stopped at my little café a few weeks ago and parked their Camping Car in the nearby Service Station car park.

 

They brought their own food with them into the Café and irritated me by not buying any of dear Gubers delightfully cooked produce.

 

They asked for my finest Red wine, I wasn't going to waste any of that on the tight fisted group, and they were given a few bottles of the worst vintage I could muster.

 

During their long drinking session one of the members of the Resistance heard something that they had mentioned, and she told me only once, the words 'Madonna' and 'big boobs'.

 

This of course brought back memories of the picture of 'The Fallen Madonna and the Big Boobies' by Van Klomp and its whereabouts because it hasn't been seen in decades and must now be worth a fortune.

 

Apparently they had a suitcase in the Camping Car with the possibility that the long lost painting was inside the case.

 

After they left my little Café in an alcohol induced state after drinking the rough, but expensively priced, wine I had so generously served we formed a plan to steal the suitcase and relieve them of the picture of the Madonna and the Big Boobies.

 

When everyone inside the vehicle, suffering from the after effects of my 'finest' wine, finally succumbed to sleep Gruber parked his ageing smoky exhaust emitting little tank next to the Camping Car.

 

He climbed on top of his little tank and lowered a hook on a rope through the open sky light of the Camping Car and, bless him, lifted the suitcase out without disturbing the slumbering occupants.

 

We hurried back to the Café and eagerly opened the case.

 

To our bitter disappointment the suitcase only contained a couple of Madonna DVDs, some sweaty shirts and a couple of bras that would have fitted Mama Cass - and not the picture we so dearly craved.

 

When the family came back to my café the next morning complaining about bad headaches and a stolen suitcase I immediately referred them to Officer Crabtree.

 

His grasp of French and English completely bemused them, their own Derbyshire accent nullifying Crabtrees attempt at sorting out the English version of the problem, and he directed them to our local Hospital for some headache relieving tablets.

 

Yvette and Mimi's daughters work as Nurses at the Hospital, and with my guidance and advice, both girls intimated that it was obviously Carbon Monoxide poisoning that had effected the six English and not the worst tasting and smelling wine that anyone could possibly consume and get away without severe repercussions.

 

To my horror, and my horror has often been tested, the Derby family claimed around 2,000 of your English pounds for replacing the contents of the stolen suitcase.

 

I, Edith, and the two English airmen, who still haven't gone home despite frequent efforts to get rid of them, have trawled the Internet to find the real value of the contents and I'm afraid the optimistic estimate to be round €40 (£32) as most the items we saw were either possibly pirated versions of the delightful Madonna's DVDs or poor quality shirts and bras bought from Derby market.

 

I admit my involvement in the crime that your Newspapers reported in chilling detail but feel I have truthfully put my side of the story and insist that normally we would only serve such appalling wine to those who are naïve, stupid or downright thick – and that can't be you, can it?

 

Love from René and Edith and we hope to see you at Renés Café in the very near future.

 

[Tracker]

Winderfal Hunry - jest whet the furom in ganerel and this tipoc in porticalar nood

[Guest pelmetman]

Brian Kirby - 2014-08-12 5:22 PM

 

pelmetman - 2014-08-12 10:16 AM

 

Brian Kirby - 2014-08-12 9:36 AM

 

No Dave, I shall go on looking at reports of gassing and applying my own reasoning to them. If I see one that convinces me, I shall be convinced. It is that simple.

 

Is that the first glint of a mind opening Brian :D.......................

No Dave, but it may just mark the first time you actually read what I wrote, rather than what you expected me to have written, or just assumed I had written. :-)

 

I'm not on anyone's, or anything's, side, so neither for nor against, but just keep reading these reports in case someone comes up with one that is convincing. So far, none have been. That, IMO, is an open mind: one that is not closed to either possibility, but needs convincing either way. What I have read has left me increasingly sceptical about whether such attacks can, in fact, be carried out. Robberies, there undoubtedly are, I have no problem with this. It is just the "knockout gas" aspect of the stories with which I have difficulty.

 

With respect Brian your first post on this thread kinda indicated your position ;-)............

 

Posted: 11 July 2014 12:36 AM

 

Just go to the first post of this earlier gassing thread. http://tinyurl.com/pfrb9qv

-----

Brian

 

"Knockout gas" is just mere terminology, from the symptoms they described I would say that pretty well described mild CO poisoning ;-)..............As I've already pointed out a CO alarm can be set off just by being parked in a garage alongside another vehicle with its engine running..............So it seems logical to me that to intentionally fill a camper with exhaust fumes would take minutes.............and seeing as the intention is just to incapacitate the occupants............then I would imagine that would be sufficient.......I know the skeptics keep asking where the bodies are *-)...............but seeing as the victims exposure to CO is only for a matter of minutes, and so far they don't appear to have targeted anyone with existing medical conditions so the lack of bodies I would put down to luck :-| ...........

 

More convincing to me that something is being used, is the fact that the hospital has detected CO in the victims blood stream......... that is what I'd call "Evidence" ;-)............which out weighs "Opinion"......

 

In my opinion :D..............

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

pelmetman - 2014-08-12 12:41 PM.................Hopefully the skeptics will have come up with plausible explanation by then *-)............

Dave, this is logically impossible. You are asking the unconvinced to explain the unconvincing in convincing terms. Could they do so, they would be convinced, not unconvinced. :-D

[Guest Had Enough]

On my way down through France I remembered another case that was reported in the Mail some time ago. It's a perfect example of the gullibility and sheer stupidity of certain sections of society and the irresponsibility of this newspaper in giving it credence.

 

This woman is convinced that robbers gassed an entire home by leaking nitrous oxide through the letter box. Needless to say no one noticed the huge gas tanker that would have been necessary for such an exercise.

 

Moreover, she discovered an injection mark on her son's arm, so just to be sure the robbers gave him a jab to make sure that he was unconscious.

 

Of course as well as the car that was stolen she lost £50,000 of cash, computers and jewelry. Just like the Derbyshire family they took all their jewelry on holiday! Yep, of course they did!

 

And as for the Derbyshire lot, this happened on the last day of their trip. If the next time they use the 'van they get groggy again and find out that there's a problem, does anyone think that they're going to own up and spoil a good insurance claim.

 

http://goo.gl/A5Tu0q

 

This really is hilarious. How can anyone be so utterly stupid as to believe this particular bit of nonsense?

 

Finally, as we're now on to carbon monoxide, how does this square with the first accounts of gassing, which supposedly occurred on the sleeper trains from Calais to Avignon? Perhaps they drove their cars alongside the train at 100 mph?

 

 

[Guest pelmetman]

Brian Kirby - 2014-08-12 6:16 PM

 

pelmetman - 2014-08-12 12:41 PM.................Hopefully the skeptics will have come up with plausible explanation by then *-)............

Dave, this is logically impossible. You are asking the unconvinced to explain the unconvincing in convincing terms. Could they do so, they would be convinced, not unconvinced. :-D

 

I said plausible Brian...............the victims had CO in their blood stream..............they along with the police believe exhaust fumes was used................the skeptics believe their fridge malfunctioned just before they were robbed :-|...............

 

Which seems the most plausible to you? ;-)..............

 

 

[Guest Had Enough]

pelmetman - 2014-08-12 6:09 PM

 

More convincing to me that something is being used, is the fact that the hospital has detected CO in the victims blood stream......... that is what I'd call "Evidence" ;-)............which out weighs "Opinion"......

 

In my opinion :D..............

 

 

No, the woman said this:

 

'Linda said the family had been given a report from the hospital saying that they had been affected by carbon monoxide. She said doctors believed that was ‘more than likely’ from exhaust fumes.'

 

Has she produced this report to anyone? And doctors 'believed' that it is 'more than likely' to be exhaust fumes. Mmmmm - that's proof then!

 

It's funny how you spend half your time on here deriding experts, until you find one that agrees with whatever you're pushing at the time. ;-) Then they're really experts! (lol)

 

But what is most odd is that they claim that they were having trouble sleeping owing to the heat. Six of them in a camper in very hot weather and they hadn't opened any windows? Oh come on!

 

Sleeping with some windows open may validate the insurance so better not mention that eh? And if the windows were open possibly they may have inhaled some exhaust gasses from the refrigerated trucks with their engines running all night? That's about as likely as anything else they're coming up with.

[Guest pelmetman]

Had Enough - 2014-08-12 6:41 PM

 

pelmetman - 2014-08-12 6:09 PM

 

More convincing to me that something is being used, is the fact that the hospital has detected CO in the victims blood stream......... that is what I'd call "Evidence" ;-)............which out weighs "Opinion"......

 

In my opinion :D..............

 

 

No, the woman said this:

 

'Linda said the family had been given a report from the hospital saying that they had been affected by carbon monoxide. She said doctors believed that was ‘more than likely’ from exhaust fumes.'

 

Has she produced this report to anyone? And doctors 'believed' that it is 'more than likely' to be exhaust fumes. Mmmmm - that's proof then!

 

It's funny how you spend half your time on here deriding experts, until you find one that agrees with whatever you're pushing at the time. ;-) Then they're really experts! (lol)

 

But what is most odd is that they claim that they were having trouble sleeping owing to the heat. Six of them in a camper in very hot weather and they hadn't opened any windows? Oh come on!

 

Sleeping with some windows open may validate the insurance so better not mention that eh? And if the windows were open possibly the may have inhaled some exhaust gasses, from the off refrigerated trucks with their engines running all night? That's about as likely as anything else they're coming up with.

 

Where did they say the windows were closed?...............they said it was hot..........which is hardly surprising with 6 people on board in the middle of France during July.............I fail to see how having windows open can invalidate your insurance if your IN the van *-).................

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

pelmetman - 2014-08-12 6:09 PM................With respect Brian your first post on this thread kinda indicated your position ;-)............

 

Posted: 11 July 2014 12:36 AM

 

Just go to the first post of this earlier gassing thread. http://tinyurl.com/pfrb9qv

-----

Brian

Indeed, where I reproduced the opinion of the RCoA, as experts, which you now also accept.

 

"Knockout gas" is just mere terminology, from the symptoms they described I would say that pretty well described mild CO poisoning ;-)..............

I used that "mere terminology" because the gas in question has not been identified. All we have is its claimed affect: it knocks people out.

 

As I've already pointed out a CO alarm can be set off just by being parked in a garage alongside another vehicle with its engine running..............

As one would hope and expect of a sensitive piece of equipment where an engine is running in a confined space. We know exhaust gas contains CO. That is not in contention.

 

So it seems logical to me that to intentionally fill a camper with exhaust fumes would take minutes.............and seeing as the intention is just to incapacitate the occupants............then I would imagine that would be sufficient.......

Which is where we part company. I'll accept that CO could be introduced into a camper. However, it seems incapacitation requires a high level of CO to be absorbed into the victim's blood. It takes time for the concentration to build up in the van. How long will depend on how much leaks out, how large the van is, and the rate at which CO is produced. All there are unknowns.

 

It will then take time for the CO to be absorbed into the victim’s bloodstream. How long will depend on the health of the victim. Those with heart disease, asthma or bronchitis, or habitual smokers, will be affected worse than the healthy. This, again, is an unknown.

 

By the time a victim is incapacitated s/he is beginning to die, and only release from the CO will allow them to begin to recover. A high concentration, or exposure over time, or exposure of the unhealthy, shortens the interval to death.

 

CO is not a narcotic, it is an asphyxiant: it suffocates by starving the body and the brain of oxygen, by degrading the blood's ability to carry it. The severity of the symptoms varies according to the concentration, and the duration of exposure. Before the blood can begin carrying oxygen again, it must recover. That, again, takes time (about 5 hours to halve the level in the blood), and is why oxygen is usually administered in severe cases. Even if removed to open air, an unconscious victim will continue dying until medical intervention is made.

 

It is inconceivable that if CO were the agent used, no one would have died. It is also inconceivable that in other reports of "gassings" the symptoms of CO poisoning would all have been missed. It is also inconceivable that at the concentrations necessary for quick incapacitation' all the victims would emerge with only the symptoms of mild CO poisoning, and not need more intensive treatment.

 

I know the skeptics keep asking where the bodies are *-)...............but seeing as the victims exposure to CO is only for a matter of minutes, and so far they don't appear to have targeted anyone with existing medical conditions so the lack of bodies I would put down to luck :-| ...........

See above.

 

More convincing to me that something is being used, is the fact that the hospital has detected CO in the victims’ blood stream......... that is what I'd call "Evidence" ;-)............which out weighs "Opinion"......In my opinion :D..............

But Dave that only provides evidence that these people had symptoms of CO poisoning. It is not evidence that they were deliberately poisoned. Moreover, that evidence has not been published, it has merely been asserted. Nevertheless, if one accepts that they were poisoned, there are two questions. Were their symptoms those of people who had actually been incapacitated, or only those of people who had been exposed to a low level of CO? If the concentration was sufficient to cause incapacitation, as there were six people affected, who must be presumed to have varying levels of health, why did no-one die? If they were all affected badly enough to have been incapacitated to the extent reported, they will all have been, to varying degrees, near death. Yet no-one woke, and no-one died. On the evidence presented, that seems inconceivable.

 

[Guest pelmetman]

Brian Kirby - 2014-08-12 7:30 PM

 

But Dave that only provides evidence that these people had symptoms of CO poisoning. It is not evidence that they were deliberately poisoned. Moreover, that evidence has not been published, it has merely been asserted. Nevertheless, if one accepts that they were poisoned, there are two questions. Were their symptoms those of people who had actually been incapacitated, or only those of people who had been exposed to a low level of CO? If the concentration was sufficient to cause incapacitation, as there were six people affected, who must be presumed to have varying levels of health, why did no-one die? If they were all affected badly enough to have been incapacitated to the extent reported, they will all have been, to varying degrees, near death. Yet no-one woke, and no-one died. On the evidence presented, that seems inconceivable.

 

Considering they were given oxygen, that would indicate to me that they CO exposure was sufficient to prevent them from waking up ;-)..................and from the pic's they all look to be of a similar build............

 

I've reposted the table below as it illustrates how little CO is required to cause problems (hardly a van full), and given that the symptoms are for people who are awake.......then I reckon a few lung fulls of CO will prevent you from waking up whilst the van is being rifled........

 

Concentration Symptoms

35 ppm (0.0035%) Headache and dizziness within six to eight hours of constant exposure

100 ppm (0.01%) Slight headache in two to three hours

200 ppm (0.02%) Slight headache within two to three hours; loss of judgment

400 ppm (0.04%) Frontal headache within one to two hours

800 ppm (0.08%) Dizziness, nausea, and convulsions within 45 min; insensible within 2 hours

1,600 ppm (0.16%) Headache, tachycardia, dizziness, and nausea within 20 min; death in less than 2 hours

3,200 ppm (0.32%) Headache, dizziness and nausea in five to ten minutes. Death within 30 minutes.

6,400 ppm (0.64%) Headache and dizziness in one to two minutes. Convulsions, respiratory arrest, and death in less than 20 minutes.

12,800 ppm (1.28%) Unconsciousness after 2–3 breaths. Death in less than three minutes.

 

Maybe the fridge did malfunction just before they were robbed.............but is that likely in every case? 8-)..........

 

 

[Guest pelmetman]

Brian Kirby - 2014-08-12 7:30 PM

 

"Knockout gas" is just mere terminology, from the symptoms they described I would say that pretty well described mild CO poisoning ;-)..............

I used that "mere terminology" because the gas in question has not been identified. All we have is its claimed affect: it knocks people out.

 

 

In the second incident.....

 

The hospital said it was CO poisoning.................So a gas "has" been identified ;-).............

[Tracker]

Sorry to disillusion you Davros but if it ever happens to us I would firstly need incontrovertible evidence to prove it at which time I would be first to post it on here with details of that evidence to verify and satisfy other sceptics and to warn others.

 

It's called a sceptical but open mind.

[Guest pelmetman]

Tracker - 2014-08-12 9:02 PM

 

Sorry to disillusion you Davros but if it ever happens to us I would firstly need incontrovertible evidence to prove it at which time I would be first to post it on here with details of that evidence to verify and satisfy other sceptics and to warn others.

 

It's called a sceptical but open mind.

 

Have you got your myth threads in a twist Rich? ;-)..................

 

Unless Cybermen have taken control of the forum 8-)..............

 

 

[antony1969]

So after all that is it a myth or not ?

[capcloser]

Time to confess,it was me wot robbed those 6 campervanners,had just visited Amsterdam and had a huge bag of weed that needed smoking so i rolled a 2ft joint and sat outside their van blowing smoke in the air vent,in no time at all i could hear them all snoring so quickly jimmied the door and had it away with their jewellry and cash,very surprised they had so much cash left after their trip they obviously dont spend like we do when on hols.I heard they all woke up with the munchies and an abiding love for all of mankind,until they realised they was robbed that is lol >:-)

[Guest pelmetman]

antony1969 - 2014-08-13 3:45 PM

 

So after all that is it a myth or not ?

 

Not according to the victims.................or us heretics :D..................9035 views..............13 pages........

 

That's another 87 pages to go :->..................and my make Frank reckons I lack ambition :-D..........

 

 

[Guest pelmetman]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2739285/Family-cash-mobiles-iPads-taken-cars-ransacked-slept-motoring-rest-stop.html

 

 

[Tracker]

This would have some credence if there was a medical report supporting gassing rather than the equally likely scenario of over tired peopel being less than sensible with their belongings and/or alcohol related sleep.

[Guest pelmetman]

Tracker - 2014-09-01 1:04 PM

 

This would have some credence if there was a medical report supporting gassing rather than the equally likely scenario of over tired peopel being less than sensible with their belongings and/or alcohol related sleep.

 

Funny how these thieves manage to target "less than sensible people" or folk with a drink problem? :-S.............

 

 

[Tracker]

Now now Dave you are distorting what I said, but I suspect that you know that already.

 

Do you sleep with valuables in view or would a thief need to search before finding anything worth stealing?

 

That is what I mean by less than sensible but I suspect that, being a seasoned traveler, you already know this?

 

Many people drive too far before stopping and being so tired go out like a light when their head hits the pillow but I suspect that, being a seasoned traveler, you already know this too?

 

Add tiredness to a glass of wine and the effect can be an even deeper sleep and this has nothing to do with an alcohol problem, but I suspect that you already know this too?

 

So much for your 'open mind' postulations and theories?

[Guest pelmetman]

Tracker - 2014-09-01 1:31 PM

 

Now now Dave you are distorting what I said, but I suspect that you know that already.

 

Do you sleep with valuables in view or would a thief need to search before finding anything worth stealing?

 

That is what I mean by less than sensible but I suspect that, being a seasoned traveler, you already know this?

 

Many people drive too far before stopping and being so tired go out like a light when their head hits the pillow but I suspect that, being a seasoned traveler, you already know this too?

 

Add tiredness to a glass of wine and the effect can be an even deeper sleep and this has nothing to do with an alcohol problem, but I suspect that you already know this too?

 

So much for your 'open mind' postulations and theories?

 

No point in repeating our arguments Rich, as I suspect everyone's views are well entrenched now......just have to wait for someone to get caught, or the weight of circumstantial evidence to turn the skeptics tide >:-).......

 

Reckon we'll be at risk of getting gassed tomorrow night though 8-).............as the aire we use is next door to the sewage works :D........

 

 

[Tracker]

pelmetman - 2014-09-01 1:51 PM

 

Reckon we'll be at risk of getting gassed tomorrow night though 8-).............as the aire we use is next door to the sewage works :D........

 

 

Excellent choice Dave and a good test for your gas and bullsh1t detector - do make sure it has a good battery!

[Guest pelmetman]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2746529/Knocked-laughing-gas-robbed-motorhome-Family-tell-motorway-ordeal-latest-attack-tourists-France.html

 

Just doing a bit of house keeping ;-).............. by putting all these myths in the one thread :D........

[Guest pelmetman]

Gor blimey you don't have wifi for a few days and you miss all the fun and games :D............. seeing as this threads not been frozen yet B-).............and to keep the thread on topic ;-)...........

 

Time to reprise the arguments for those who have recently joined the forum, and to save them the trouble of trawling through pages of claim and counter claim .................

 

Taking the skeptics view one at a time...........

 

1. The RCoA state it would be impossible and in their opinion prohibitively expensive, to use any of the gases currently used in anesthesia.............

 

With the exception of hippy crack AKA laughing gas I would agree, besides CO appears to be the current method of choice, and as the RCoA state CO is not a anesthetic so is outside their their field of experience....

 

2. Impossible to fill a camper with gas?...........

 

Air is a gas ..................and any gas will expand to fill a given space **equally**, naturally at point of entry concentrations will be higher.

 

3. Lack of dead bodies?.............

 

Given that the victims exposure to any incapacitate would be limited to minutes, and the source of gas/fumes would be removed prior to entry, plus the immediate reduction in toxic atmosphere as soon as the thieves gain access.

Its not surprising that no one has yet died, although that said I would also suggest so far they have been lucky by not targeting anyone with a medical condition ..............

 

4. Too much of a risk for the thieves?.............

 

The argument that the thieves wouldn't risk a murder charge, is like saying people wont commit crimes as they risk going to prison? .............Looking at it from a tea leafs point of view, his greatest unknown and "risk" is when he breaks into a camper...... unless he/she has been following them they're unlikely to know whether there's a couple of old codgers on board, or a family of 6 as in the Chadwick's robbery.

 

Hence the use of some means to incapacitate the occupants would make total sense, and in the balance of probabilities they know their chances of getting caught at the scene is remote, and if they were........ then the EU soft justice system, would at worse case scenario see them getting done for the much lesser charge of manslaughter........

 

5. Lack of medical evidence?.........

 

Up until recently there was only the anecdotal evidence of the symptoms suffered by the victims, which are the same for those who have suffered a CO overdose ...............The Chadwick's incident has shown that CO was used..........because they were given "blood tests that proved positive for CO poisoning", and subsequently given oxygen by the French medical staff..........

 

6. How do they do it?.............

 

This is the interesting bit................. I know from my own experience with the CO alarm going off, whilst just being parked next to a vehicle undergoing diagnostics, that pumping a bit of CO through an open window or vent would be a simple matter......

 

Engine noise?..............on a service area is not unusual ...........

Exhaust smell?............a filter would again be simple enough to add to a bit of hose ..............

Alternatively there are other simple methods of generating CO, as Teflon2 pointed one out to me the other day.

 

7. Insurance scam?............

 

Its frequently said by the skeptics that claiming to be gassed is a method to ensure payout ..........

Seeing as insurance companies payout regardless of whether gas was used seems a pointless exercise to me, especially when they can expect nothing but abuse from their fellow moho owners ........

 

8. Alternative theory's?..........

 

The skeptics have tried various alternative reasons why people would sleep through their camper being robbed..............from tiredness..... too much drink.......fridge failure prior to robbery..........heavy smokers ...............unfortunately none more plausible than the use of a incapacitate in my view...........especially as we now have 4 reported incidents in 2 months ........

 

[Brambles]

"2. Impossible to fill a camper with gas?...........

 

Air is a gas ..................and any gas will expand to fill a given space **equally**, naturally at point of entry concentrations will be higher. "

 

 

 

..It would if your Motorhome was a vacuum. You have got your gas laws all wrong. Laws correct, wrong application.

 

You have been told this before, do you not read the relpy posts or are you really in a world of yoru own?

 

Now go and read up all about the Kinetic theory of gases and how they mix. Yes they mix homogeniously but only if physically mixed and when you stop mixing they will separate into layers depending on their physical properties.

note: A space in scientific terms is just that ...a space, nought, nadda, Pelmets brain, nothing, void of any particle of matter...a vacuum.