Tracker Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 Interesting points. I wonder whether the extension under a household contents policy designed to cover accidental damage to pedal cycles would extend to cover EPACs, and whether cover is limited to the UK or EU wide? Can we assume that if it does then so too might the personal public liability section cover third party personal injury and property damage. I will have to dig my policy out and have a read! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 My L&V household policy was the cheapest way to insure our expensive e bikes for theft. cover is europe wide (while locked to an immovable object). I also have 3rd party cover on same policy. But! I ride EC compliant e bikes. the problems is for those who dont! cheap ebay bikes spring to mind.... some stand alone bike insurance policies cost more than the van to insure! I really dont think the police will be looking to see a contents insurance policy or 3rd party cover....Again: if not compliant with regs and you do not have a COC...you will need proper insurance as you will be deemed to be riding a moped...I cant make it clearer then that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artheytrate Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 I've been using my Ebike with throttle for 3 weeks now and have had no problems, but to be sure I've emailed my Ebike seller Prorider and we will se what they provide. John. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billggski Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 Hi Eddie, is your Possi an immovable object then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artheytrate Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 I should have posted used it 3 weeks in Spain now and no problems, just done the baguette run and ok. John. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 Billggski - 2014-11-04 11:32 AM Hi Eddie, is your Possi an immovable object then? nope. but it is heavily chained to van so as secure as you can get Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 JudgeMental - 2014-11-04 3:20 PM Billggski - 2014-11-04 11:32 AM Hi Eddie, is your Possi an immovable object then? nope. but it is heavily chained to van so as secure as you can get ...in reality, for most cycle insurers (though read the small print), it probably is. You will often find the following (or similar) definition applies: Immovable object - this can be: A solid object that is not capable of being undone, removed with or lifted under or over the bicycle A properly fixed roof rack or bike rack At train stations a bike rack supplied by the train station specifically for the purpose of securing bikes and within the jurisdiction of the transport police And, given that a properly fixed roof rack or bike rack is covered here, it would be difficult for the insurer to argue that chaining to a secure point on a vehicle (such as the towing eye). Of course, if someone steals the vehicle with the bikes on it, then it may be more difficult to claim that it was "immovable". ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 artheytrate - 2014-11-04 12:03 PM I should have posted used it 3 weeks in Spain now and no problems, just done the baguette run and ok. John. have a good look around the bike to see if there is a CE mark.it might be under the frame while it may be nice and sunny and all tickety boo, if bike is not certified as compliant or insured as a moped you are running the risk of very heavy fines. All depends on how risk averse you are, plus how lucky you are feeling.....Well......Are you feeling lucky...well are you? :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artheytrate Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 JudgeMental - 2014-11-04 3:28 PM artheytrate - 2014-11-04 12:03 PM I should have posted used it 3 weeks in Spain now and no problems, just done the baguette run and ok. John. have a good look around the bike to see if there is a CE mark.it might be under the frame while it may be nice and sunny and all tickety boo, if bike is not certified as compliant or insured as a moped you are running the risk of very heavy fines. All depends on how risk averse you are, plus how lucky you are feeling.....Well......Are you feeling lucky...well are you? :D Hi Eddie here's my reply from Pro rider. I think I'll risk it as there's loads of ebikes being used here in Benidorm and the Police don't seem bothered at all. John. Hi Thank you for your email. The Pro Rider bikes are manufactured with full UK regulations and requirements. If you are purchasing the bike with the intention of using it in another country you will need to check the legal requirements within that country. We can not be held responsible for the regulations within countries outside the UK. Kind Regards Service Department Pro Rider Mobility & Leisure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 its a personal choice but expensive if you get it wrong and people are getting caught that's the trouble with chinese bikes.... Prorider seem not to realise we are within the EU! so bikes are only UK legal? and not tested with EC sticker..I mean come on!lol I suggest you look at this and send it to them and ask for an explanation, as to why why they are selling untested bikes in the UK. also contact trading standards or citizens direct for advice http://www.electric-bicycle-guide.com/electric-bicycles-legal-regulations.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROND Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 Surely anything sold in the UK these days must comply with EU standards as guarantees come under EU law as far as I know. You can claim on guarantee for up to 6 years under EU law for any product that you can prove had an inherent fault at time of purchase motorhomes included so surely any Ebikes sold must comply with EU regs not just British. RD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 ROND - 2014-11-04 7:20 PM Surely anything sold in the UK these days must comply with EU standards as guarantees come under EU law as far as I know. You can claim on guarantee for up to 6 years under EU law for any product that you can prove had an inherent fault at time of purchase motorhomes included so surely any Ebikes sold must comply with EU regs not just British. RD Lithium batteries are potentially dangerous...would like to see a household insurers attitude if it was proven a cheap untested chinese e bike was responsible for burning down a house. You think the 2000 euro fines expensive! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sshortcircuit Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 JudgeMental - 2014-11-05 10:17 AM ROND - 2014-11-04 7:20 PM Surely anything sold in the UK these days must comply with EU standards as guarantees come under EU law as far as I know. You can claim on guarantee for up to 6 years under EU law for any product that you can prove had an inherent fault at time of purchase motorhomes included so surely any Ebikes sold must comply with EU regs not just British. RDr Lithium batteries are potentially dangerous...would like to see a household insurers attitude if it was proven a cheap untested chinese e bike was responsible for burning down a house. You think the 2000 euro fines expensive! I assume it will be the same Lithium that the battery in your mobile phone, tablet etc is made of? Gosh you have really got me worried about this dangerous item. I use LiPo batteries in model gliders and am well aware of potential danger if mishandled but have yet ever to have one go on fire or have any member of the club I attend experience same. Must go and have a lie down now so I will be out of all dangers?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 ROND - 2014-11-04 7:20 PM Surely anything sold in the UK these days must comply with EU standards as guarantees come under EU law as far as I know. You can claim on guarantee for up to 6 years under EU law for any product that you can prove had an inherent fault at time of purchase motorhomes included so surely any Ebikes sold must comply with EU regs not just British. RD Ron, I think you may be confusing consumer law with warranties, and may also be confusing EU standards with consumer law. The warranty is issued by the manufacturer or seller (or sometimes a third party insurer) of a product and, unless legally (generally meaning tried in a court) proved unfair, is unaffected by any consumer legislation or EU regulation. It is not open to interpretation by anyone saving whoever issued it. In short, it means whatever the issuer says it means, no more, no less. There is no appeal, except to the issuer, who is both judge and jury. Consumer legislation is totally separate from warranties, and affects only the contractual relationship between you and the seller of the product. It states that a seller (note not the manufacturer, who has no part in this legislation) has certian obligations under his contract of sale. Broadly, this is where the six years comes in, but the seller's obligations are reduced over those six years, subject to a number of conditions and considerations, all of which have to be argued in arbitration, conciliation, or court (depending on circumstance) hearings. Here, it is the legal process that determines the outcome and the warranty terms will have no bearing on the decision. Application can be made (but may not be granted) for appeal to a higher court. EU regulations merely govern standards for products. They may, as in this case, require that products sold within the EU conform to those standards, and they may require written proof of compliance to be shown, by CE marks, or by completion of Certificates of Conformity (CoC). Broadly, how the member states choose to treat the CoC is for them to decide. Sometimes the provision of the CoC to the buyer is compulsory, sometimes it is not. It seems that with E-bikes and pedelecs the UK does not require the CoC to be provided, and that Spain does. It also seems that the UK may not be applying the requirement for CE compliance to be observed in the same way as other states. This seems to be so (or to have been so) over how the wattage of the motor determines whether a bike is an e-bike or a pedelec. If a product were sold as compliant with EU regs (and that can be proved) when it is not, it was not as described, and consumer legislation says the seller must take back the goods and refund the purchase price. The buyer may have to take the seller to court to secure this outcome. OTOH, if the product sold is non-compliant, but this is not pointed out to the buyer, the same would be true, but it would be for the buyer to prove that he was not told the product was non-compliant when he bought it. More difficult in most cases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muswell Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 JudgeMental - 2014-11-05 10:17 AM Lithium batteries are potentially dangerous...would like to see a household insurers attitude if it was proven a cheap untested chinese e bike was responsible for burning down a house. You think the 2000 euro fines expensive! 8-) Do youhave asbestos-lined cycling shorts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 sshortcircuit - 2014-11-05 11:53 AM JudgeMental - 2014-11-05 10:17 AM ROND - 2014-11-04 7:20 PM Surely anything sold in the UK these days must comply with EU standards as guarantees come under EU law as far as I know. You can claim on guarantee for up to 6 years under EU law for any product that you can prove had an inherent fault at time of purchase motorhomes included so surely any Ebikes sold must comply with EU regs not just British. RDr Lithium batteries are potentially dangerous...would like to see a household insurers attitude if it was proven a cheap untested chinese e bike was responsible for burning down a house. You think the 2000 euro fines expensive! I assume it will be the same Lithium that the battery in your mobile phone, tablet etc is made of? Gosh you have really got me worried about this dangerous item. I use LiPo batteries in model gliders and am well aware of potential danger if mishandled but have yet ever to have one go on fire or have any member of the club I attend experience same. Must go and have a lie down now so I will be out of all dangers?? dear oh dear...a tad defensive aren't we....You do what you want, but missing the point.....your examples above are CE marked, tested and conform with regulations? As for lipo.......are you feeling lucky...well are you :-D http://www.atbatt.com/batterytimes/dangerous-battery Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sshortcircuit Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 JudgeMental - 2014-11-05 12:10 PM sshortcircuit - 2014-11-05 11:53 AM JudgeMental - 2014-11-05 10:17 AM ROND - 2014-11-04 7:20 PM Surely anything sold in the UK these days must comply with EU standards as guarantees come under EU law as far as I know. You can claim on guarantee for up to 6 years under EU law for any product that you can prove had an inherent fault at time of purchase motorhomes included so surely any Ebikes sold must comply with EU regs not just British. RDr Lithium batteries are potentially dangerous...would like to see a household insurers attitude if it was proven a cheap untested chinese e bike was responsible for burning down a house. You think the 2000 euro fines expensive! I assume it will be the same Lithium that the battery in your mobile phone, tablet etc is made of? Gosh you have really got me worried about this dangerous item. I use LiPo batteries in model gliders and am well aware of potential danger if mishandled but have yet ever to have one go on fire or have any member of the club I attend experience same. Must go and have a lie down now so I will be out of all dangers?? dear oh dear...a tad defensive aren't we....You do what you want, but missing the point.....your examples above are CE marked, tested and conform with regulations? As for lipo.......are you feeling lucky...well are you :-D http://www.atbatt.com/batterytimes/dangerous-battery You post scaremongering about possible dangers of lithium in product used by millions and now take exception about being challenged. No Eddie you miss the point big style. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 sshortcircuit - 2014-11-05 12:25 PM JudgeMental - 2014-11-05 12:10 PM sshortcircuit - 2014-11-05 11:53 AM JudgeMental - 2014-11-05 10:17 AM ROND - 2014-11-04 7:20 PM Surely anything sold in the UK these days must comply with EU standards as guarantees come under EU law as far as I know. You can claim on guarantee for up to 6 years under EU law for any product that you can prove had an inherent fault at time of purchase motorhomes included so surely any Ebikes sold must comply with EU regs not just British. RDr Lithium batteries are potentially dangerous...would like to see a household insurers attitude if it was proven a cheap untested chinese e bike was responsible for burning down a house. You think the 2000 euro fines expensive! I assume it will be the same Lithium that the battery in your mobile phone, tablet etc is made of? Gosh you have really got me worried about this dangerous item. I use LiPo batteries in model gliders and am well aware of potential danger if mishandled but have yet ever to have one go on fire or have any member of the club I attend experience same. Must go and have a lie down now so I will be out of all dangers?? dear oh dear...a tad defensive aren't we....You do what you want, but missing the point.....your examples above are CE marked, tested and conform with regulations? As for lipo.......are you feeling lucky...well are you :-D http://www.atbatt.com/batterytimes/dangerous-battery You post about possible dangers of lithium in product used by millions and now take exception about being challenged. No Eddie you miss the point big style. Scaremongering? ..this is what always happens on here the messenger gets shot!lol you mentioned lipo not me, would certainly not have them in the house OR anything electrical that was not CE marked or tested. Good no cheap cheap no good.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 sshortcircuit - 2014-11-05 12:25 PM...................You post scaremongering about possible dangers of lithium in product used by millions and now take exception about being challenged. No Eddie you miss the point big style. Hamish, Eddie seems to have presented reasonable evidence to support his warning. Can you do likelwise for advising others that the warning is unwarranted? What is being urged is not to place blind faith in products of unknown origin. Why is that bad advice? Where is the problem? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sophie2 Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 To assume all Chinese bikes, which are often less expensive than others is "cheap" in all senses of the word is erroneous. I have a bike manufactured in China which is EMC verified as Compliant with test dates, test standards, reference numbers and other technical data. Of course no-one knows if the document I hold will be acceptable to Spanish Police, but isn't that the case whether the bike is made in Germany, UK, Holland or timbuctoo.? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 Sophie2 - 2014-11-05 2:03 PM............Of course no-one knows if the document I hold will be acceptable to Spanish Police, but isn't that the case whether the bike is made in Germany, UK, Holland or timbuctoo.? No, not if it has a European CoC. That document has to be accepted throughout Europe as evidence of compliance. BTW, I don't think anyone said all Chinese made bikes are cheap or sub-standard. Many of the big names get their bikes made in China. It is the European assessment system that results in the CoC being provided. Problem is, not all imports seem to be submitted for assessment within that system. Since so many bikes come from "China" (including Taiwan), it is possible that a Chinese made bike may not conform. This may be true for bikes imported from elsewhere outside the EU, but China is by far the largest present source. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 who said all chinese bikes are poor. wisper/freego group bikes are EN15194. But its pretty obvious that some are selling bikes to the unsuspecting that don't comply! *-) http://www.chinatuv.com/en/news_det.asp?idd=72&idds=84 Its really not rocket science..if it dont have a CE/COC label buy something else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gocro Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 My Kalkhoff cam with the COC in six languages for the bike and the charger. My wife's Giant bike only had a generic giant booklet with no certificate. On ringing the local Giant store I was told that the sticker on the bike would suffice as they (Giant) didn't issue certificates (patently b*****ks). Independent dealer in York (Fulford Cycles) is sending me one from one of their stock bikes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 but they are correct if it has the CE mark it is compliant.......I admit better safe than sorry and wil be carrying a COC as well in Spain! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antony1969 Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 Bloody hell .. Why oh why do these ebike threads always have to end up in a ding dong .. Is it egos ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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