Guest JudgeMental Posted November 14, 2014 Share Posted November 14, 2014 My post crossd with Robins. Pepe its all in the first two posts if you can remember that far back (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted November 14, 2014 Share Posted November 14, 2014 JudgeMental - 2014-11-14 12:53 PM I find it bizarre that people don't recognise the problem here. Would they buy a fake hairdryer or home appliance without a CE mark to use. ....I think that's a bit strong, Eddie. Some (many) of the (non EN15194) bikes we are discussing here are perfectly legal to use as bicycles (not mopeds) in the market in which they were sold, i.e. the UK. Subject to other requirements being met, then (in the UK) a throttle does not make them a "light moped", as they would be in much of the EU. Why, therefore, would most people look for CE marking (and specifically to EN15194, as, evidenced above, an element of CE marking DOES apply to some of these bikes)? I suspect EU harmonisation of UK law in this area, as and when it happens, will not retrospectively impact on their use in the UK. There patently is, and will continue to be, a potential problem with using them abroad. OTOH, until the UK harmonisation of legislation in respect of EN15194 occurs, AFAIK, you are committing an offence in the UK by riding your bike, which I suspect has a motor in excess of the current UK limit of 200W. Received wisdom is that this law will not be applied, awaiting the harmonisation (which will increase the limit to 250W), but it is still a risk. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antony1969 Posted November 14, 2014 Share Posted November 14, 2014 Robinhood - 2014-11-14 1:13 PM JudgeMental - 2014-11-14 12:53 PM I find it bizarre that people don't recognise the problem here. Would they buy a fake hairdryer or home appliance without a CE mark to use. ....I think that's a bit strong, Eddie. Some (many) of the (non EN15194) bikes we are discussing here are perfectly legal to use as bicycles (not mopeds) in the market in which they were sold, i.e. the UK. Subject to other requirements being met, then (in the UK) a throttle does not make them a "light moped", as they would be in much of the EU. Why, therefore, would most people look for CE marking (and specifically to EN15194, as, evidenced above, an element of CE marking DOES apply to some of these bikes)? I suspect EU harmonisation of UK law in this area, as and when it happens, will not retrospectively impact on their use in the UK. There patently is, and will continue to be, a potential problem with using them abroad. OTOH, until the UK harmonisation of legislation in respect of EN15194 occurs, AFAIK, you are committing an offence in the UK by riding your bike, which I suspect has a motor in excess of the current UK limit of 200W. Received wisdom is that this law will not be applied, awaiting the harmonisation (which will increase the limit to 250W), but it is still a risk. ;-) Agreed ! Peanuts on a ' bike ' I'd imagine for most spending over a grand is a large amount for a ' bike ' never mind two to three grand and maybe more if it's for you and the missus My proper bike , a mountain bike cost £2500 but I wouldn't condemn someone for going to Halfords and getting one for two hundred quid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted November 14, 2014 Share Posted November 14, 2014 The thread is about ebike use in Spain (^) its not hard..when in Spain disconnect toe throttle or dont..... your choice Robin I dont believe harmonisation will be retrospective. But most good UK companies like the Freego Wisper group already sell bikes that comply with EN15194 why wouldn't they..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ned Posted November 14, 2014 Share Posted November 14, 2014 Hi Judge! I have followed all the posts on this thread with some interest. However, please excuse my ignorance, I don't understand your inference that third party insurance, let's say for £1,000,000, would not count as acceptable insurance for an ebike that by using the twist and go above 6km per hour and thus making it an electrical moped would not satisfy the 'Plod' in Spain. I say this as my scoot is only insured third party and thus meets the legal requirement to be on the road in Spain. Could you enlighten me why the original third party you mentioned in your original two posts would be illegal and thus constitute a large fine. I am bringing this up as my house insurance covers theft, fire and brimstone damage but not third party, especially abroad. I have located a specialist cycle insurance company who will insure my bikes for £21 each with European cover for third party risk which I thought was ,considering what has been said elsewhere, fairly reasonable. I look forward to your reply. Cheers......... Ned Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted November 14, 2014 Share Posted November 14, 2014 that everyone should have 3rd party insurance beside the point Ned, again thisa personal decision. what we are talking about here is moped insurance for the bike if its not compliant and has an independent throttle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted November 14, 2014 Share Posted November 14, 2014 that everyone should have 3rd party insurance beside the point Ned, again thisa personal decision. what we are talking about here is moped insurance for the bike if its not compliant and has an independent throttle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ned Posted November 14, 2014 Share Posted November 14, 2014 Hi, Cheers for that. However, British insurance companies don't recognise an ebike as a moped and consequently won't quote. I I know this because I have spent all week phoning for quotes. They see ebikes as electric power and as such are covered as bicycles which,as Bennetts said is what they are. They don't understand the differentiation that exists in Europe as they are legal in the UK. The crux of the matter is that you require an insurance certificate that has something like electric moped on the certificate. Then third party cover would be associated with the said moped. This clarifies quite a few issues really ,in so far as, one can't meet the legal requirements of fellow EU countries because if our laws are are not harmonised then it doesn't raise the issue that there needs to be a separate definition for some ebikes ie those with twist and go,to be considered as their own identity, thus creating a separate electric powered moped category , much the same as happened in the mobility scooter market when those which were capable of quicker speeds had to have insurance and a free tax disc to allow them on the road. Cheers ned Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted November 15, 2014 Share Posted November 15, 2014 wont happen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted November 15, 2014 Share Posted November 15, 2014 ned - 2014-11-14 7:31 PM This clarifies quite a few issues really ,in so far as, one can't meet the legal requirements of fellow EU countries because if our laws are are not harmonised then it doesn't raise the issue that there needs to be a separate definition for some ebikes ie those with twist and go,to be considered as their own identity, thus creating a separate electric powered moped category , much the same as happened in the mobility scooter market when those which were capable of quicker speeds had to have insurance and a free tax disc to allow them on the road. Cheers ned ...we seem to be going all around the houses, here, as regards what is categorised as what and where. There is already a category of electric "moped" in the UK, which may well be road legal, but will need to be registered, taxed (at zero rate) and insured - much like a petrol moped. Any electric bike (i.e. a two-wheeler with pedals) with a motor above 200W (but see my previous notes on the harmonisation issues for 250W motors), with a throttle or not, falls into this category. You can relatively easily buy such a vehicle (electric moped) with a motor up to and exceeding 1KW. In the UK, an electric bike can be treated in law as an ordinary bike if it meets certain strict criteria - amongst which are: 200W max motor, pedals, limited maximum assisted speed. In the UK, it may also have a throttle fitted. (Failing those criteria puts it in a different classification, probably making it a taxable and insurable road vehicle). A thus compliant vehicle, though road legal as a bicycle in the UK, may still not meet the (subtly different) requirements of EN15194, which would allow it to be treated in law as a bicycle in (many) Continental EU countries. The most noticeable "failure" here would be if a throttle were fitted (as this is not allowed under EN15194). It is likely, though not a given, that UK law will, in the near future, harmonise with EU legislation, and choose the definition of EN15194 as an electric bike capable of being considered a "bicycle" in law. The previous definition may be overturned, or, more likely, the historic definition will stay in place in parallel for existing compliant bikes (in the UK) to include, say, a throttle. Such bikes with a throttle are likely (certain?) to remain outside the definition in the rest of the EU, and in addition, there is the question as to whether demonstrable certification to EN15194 will be required to have a vehicle considered as a "bicycle". (This appears to be what was reported in the original post for Spain). In the latter case, simply disabling the throttle will not be enough, since a bike thus fitted would never have passed compliance checking for EN15194, and it is very unlikely that anyone would retrospectively issue a legal certificate (throttle or no). It is thus a given that anyone who has an electric bike which is (ostensibly) treated as a "bicycle" in the UK should understand whether that treatment is under non-harmonised UK law, or via EN15194 certification. If the latter, it would seem (without checking ALL countries) that it will also be treated as a "bicycle" throughout the EU, if the former, then it may not be so treated. It would be wise to understand whether this is so. Note: Until/unless harmonisation of UK law happens, then the normal 250W motor fitted to EN15194 e-bikes disqualifies them from being considered the same as a bicycle in UK law! (Where the current limit is 200W - use is at your own risk!) It's worthwhile recalling the saga of mini electric scooters which were all the rage some years ago, but ended up being banned from roads and pavements since the law considered them as being a registerable, taxable vehicle requiring compulsory insurance. I suspect they could have been considered to be a "bicycle" if they had had pedals fitted, but they didn't. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hallii Posted November 15, 2014 Share Posted November 15, 2014 As I understand things, if a bike satisfies all the other requirements set out in EN15194, and has a throttle that will independently propel the bike to 6kph without pedals being turned by the rider, after which the throttle will only work up to 25kph +10% if the rider is turning the pedals will pass EN15194. So throttle can be fitted, the question of CoC and EC marking is another issue. If a bike complies but does not have a CoC is the rider breaking Spanish law? After considerable reading it appears that many Chinese CoC are simply not worth the paper they are printed on and are simply fakes. It's a can of worms. I have tried but cannot find anything about the Spanish prosecution, it would be useful to know more, particularly regarding the type of machine in question. I have seen electric scooters with and without pedals in Spain, and I have seen bikes with enormous motors that must be well over the 250w limit. H Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted November 15, 2014 Share Posted November 15, 2014 hallii - 2014-11-15 11:30 AM As I understand things, if a bike satisfies all the other requirements set out in EN15194, and has a throttle that will independently propel the bike to 6kph without pedals being turned by the rider, after which the throttle will only work up to 25kph +10% if the rider is turning the pedals will pass EN15194. ...sorry. Yes, this is strictly correct (I was using the concept of a throttle as if for throttle-only use). A "throttle" functional up to 6kph, or used to vary the amount of assistance to pedalling (above 6kph/4mph) can (all other requirements being met) be fitted to an EN15149 EPAC compliant cycle. Above 6kph, it must, however, not work independently of the pedals (as many UK-legal, non-EN15194 bikes do). You might consider the four separate power settings on my bike as being a "throttle", but they are concerned only with varying pedal assistance, and I also have a "pushing assist" button fitted, that will move the bike at low speed (<6kph) without the pedals being used. It is EN15194 compliant. (I only found the latter a month or so ago, as the button is out of sight, and isn't fitted to my wife's bike, which has the same controls and mechanics) (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 I've been reading this thread with interest. We've decided that we will definitely go to Spain in March/April and will be taking our e-bikes with us but as they are 250w with pedal assist and an independent throttle it looks like we'll be 'illegal'! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gocro Posted November 19, 2014 Share Posted November 19, 2014 Mel B - 2014-11-18 10:29 PM I've been reading this thread with interest. We've decided that we will definitely go to Spain in March/April and will be taking our e-bikes with us but as they are 250w with pedal assist and an independent throttle it looks like we'll be 'illegal'! Not if you can disconnect or disable the throttle function. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muswell Posted November 19, 2014 Share Posted November 19, 2014 gocro - 2014-11-19 8:42 AM Mel B - 2014-11-18 10:29 PM I've been reading this thread with interest. We've decided that we will definitely go to Spain in March/April and will be taking our e-bikes with us but as they are 250w with pedal assist and an independent throttle it looks like we'll be 'illegal'! Not if you can disconnect or disable the throttle function. That is a necessary but not sufficient condition. The power input must also reduce up to max 25 kph and stop if you stop pedalling or brake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted November 19, 2014 Share Posted November 19, 2014 gocro - 2014-11-19 8:42 AM Mel B - 2014-11-18 10:29 PM I've been reading this thread with interest. We've decided that we will definitely go to Spain in March/April and will be taking our e-bikes with us but as they are 250w with pedal assist and an independent throttle it looks like we'll be 'illegal'! Not if you can disconnect or disable the throttle function. Or alternatively (if I've understood correctly), and assuming they are otherwise insured against theft/damage, obtain the relevant CoC and get electric moped/scooter third party only insurance for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted November 19, 2014 Share Posted November 19, 2014 Brian Kirby - 2014-11-19 2:37 PM gocro - 2014-11-19 8:42 AM Mel B - 2014-11-18 10:29 PM I've been reading this thread with interest. We've decided that we will definitely go to Spain in March/April and will be taking our e-bikes with us but as they are 250w with pedal assist and an independent throttle it looks like we'll be 'illegal'! Not if you can disconnect or disable the throttle function. Or alternatively (if I've understood correctly), and assuming they are otherwise insured against theft/damage, obtain the relevant CoC and get electric moped/scooter third party only insurance for them. Hmmm ... will have to think about what to do ... our bikes are not 'obviously' electric with the battery being within the centre frame tube so apart from the on/off control on the handlebars you wouldn't know the difference without a closer look, certainly looking from a distance you couldn't tell unless we were free-wheeling with the power on and zooming past, which we don't usually do anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bolero boy Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 Mel, is that not a large rear hub motor i can see in your picture? if so, a bit of a giveaway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
w1ntersun Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 From a cycle insurer Dear Mr Shore, Thank you for your email. We have checked with our underwriters and they have not heard of this new requirement. If Spain are now classing all throttle controlled e-bikes as mopeds you will most probably require a motor insurance policy. This is something that you will need to check. Our cycle insurance would not cover you as a moped user. Kind Regards, Cycleplan Admin Team problem is to get moped insurance you need a no plate registration and has to be taxed as well Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artheytrate Posted November 20, 2014 Share Posted November 20, 2014 Mel I wouldn't worry to much as there are literally hundreds here in Benidorm using Ebikes, and a lot of the Dutch have bikes with engines fitted to the rear wheel and the Police don't seem to mind. I've stopped worrying about it, to me it's another gassing thread. John. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 Tell that to the women who was fined 1500 € + 400€ more when she appealed and lost in court ... *-) We all make our own decisions but telling others thats is nonsense when you are plainly breaking Spanish law is downright irresponsible Do what you want to do by all means.....you cant say you have not been forewarned..honestly I don't know why I bother sometimes :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artheytrate Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 JudgeMental - 2014-11-23 3:48 PM Tell that to the women who was fined 1500 € + 400€ more when she appealed and lost in court ... *-) We all make our own decisions but telling others thats is nonsense when you are plainly breaking Spanish law is downright irresponsible Do what you want to do by all means.....you cant say you have not been forewarned..honestly I don't know why I bother sometimes :-D A few people on other forums have said that they can't find any reference on the net to the above. John. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 JudgeMental - 2014-11-23 3:48 PM honestly I don't know why I bother sometimes :-D It makes me wonder too Eddie, when you give advice with the best of motives to help others avoid penalties why there is so much whingeing and moaning. Whether people choose to follow or ignore your reports is up to them but to keep mythering on about it is all rather pointless and when they have a go at you it does make you wonder. I for one value your input - and I don't even have an electric bike! Nil carborundum illegitimi - or any variation of it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 artheytrate - 2014-11-23 7:15 PM A few people on other forums have said that they can't find any reference on the net to the above. John. ...the appearance on various motorhome forums in the UK seems to be as a result of the story on page 11 (or 37 depending on numbering system) here: http://www.informernews.org/swf/issue287.swf ....which, for anyone who doesn't have flash installed, runs as follows: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muswell Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 Robinhood - 2014-11-23 7:47 PM artheytrate - 2014-11-23 7:15 PM A few people on other forums have said that they can't find any reference on the net to the above. John. ...the appearance on various motorhome forums in the UK seems to be as a result of the story on page 11 (or 37 depending on numbering system) here: http://www.informernews.org/swf/issue287.swf ....which, for anyone who doesn't have flash installed, runs as follows: Not just her, a pensioner got done as well http://www.laverdad.es/murcia/ciudad-murcia/201410/04/bici-clomotor-20141004011109-v.html If you read the Spanish forums they take this seriously http://nergiza.com/consideraciones-legales-sobre-bicis-electricas-entrevista-a-pablo-aloy-abogado/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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