Brian Kirby Posted November 8, 2006 Share Posted November 8, 2006 Since this debate rattles on from time to time, with much deliberation over how and what, I thought I'd try to get an expert view on the feasibility of using narcotic gases to knock out the occupante of motorhomes/caravans. Since they do this all the time, so to speak, I thought I'd ask the Royal College of Anaesthetists. Somewhat to my surprise, they provided the following reply. Interesting isn't it? Sleep tight folks!Dear Mr Kirby,Thank you for your enquiry. I would like to inform you that you are not the first enquirer with this question. Professor Hatch, our Clinical Advisor, has given the following previous comments: "I can give you a categorical assurance that it would not be possible to render someone unconscious with ether without their knowledge, even if they were sleeping at the time. Ether is an extremely pungent agent and a relatively weak anaesthetic by modern standards and has a very irritant affect of the air passages, causing coughing and sometimes vomiting. It takes some time to reach unconsciousness, even if given by direct application to the face on a rag, and the concentration needed by some sort of spray into a room would be enormous. The smell hangs around for days and would be obvious to anyone the next day. There are much more powerful agents around now, some of which are almost odourless. However, these would be unlikely to be able to achieve the effect you describe, and the cost would be huge enough to deter any thief unless he was after the crown jewels. The only practicable agent is probably the one used by the Russians in the Moscow siege - I advised the BBC on their programme about this. The general feeling is that they used an agent which is not available outside the KGB! Finally, unsupervised anaesthesia, which is what we are really talking about is very dangerous. In the Moscow siege about 20% of victims died from asphyxia, because their airways were unprotected. If the reports you talk about are true I would have expected a significant number of deaths or cases of serious brain damage to have been reported." I hope this information is helpful to you. The Royal College of Anaesthetists Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat P Posted November 9, 2006 Share Posted November 9, 2006 I am sure I echo many others when I say - "thank you Brian" it was very good of you to go to all that trouble. I was always sceptical but like most females felt vulnerable when hearing of these supposed attacks. I can now sleep soundly and am very grateful to you. PS Many moons ago I used to assist in theatre when ether was used on an open mask (meaning it could escape into the room) for anaesthesia of animals during surgery. Not once did I ever really feel sleepy!! Still it is still nice to hear it from the experts. Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mansell Posted November 9, 2006 Share Posted November 9, 2006 This is what I always thought at last some common sense and not he say she say . GOOD JOB WELL DONE BRIAN. KEEP TRYING IT WILL HAPPEN. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enodreven Posted November 9, 2006 Share Posted November 9, 2006 Hi, Great piece of information Brian, well done and Pat P, Its not just females that feel vulnerable I wasn't to happy either Thanks again Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enodreven Posted November 9, 2006 Share Posted November 9, 2006 Hi, To the moderator Is it possible to make this letter a fixed reference item, like the "Stolen motor caravans" etc, as that may help to stop any of the future rantings and scaremongering that this subject always seems to generate Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator Posted November 9, 2006 Share Posted November 9, 2006 Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy Posted November 9, 2006 Share Posted November 9, 2006 Well done Brian. Another very useful piece of information. Please pass it on to the editor MMM, I am sure that he will be delighted to publish same. Roy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Madge Posted November 9, 2006 Share Posted November 9, 2006 Brian, Good thinking, going to the RCA. Hopefully that might stop the "Urban Myths" 8-) I don't thinks o though. I've posted it on some of the other motorhome forums. Don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vixter Posted November 9, 2006 Share Posted November 9, 2006 Many thanks Brian. The possibility of gas attacks had been a worry to me too. Vixter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mom Posted November 9, 2006 Share Posted November 9, 2006 Does anyone want to buy a secondhand Gas Attack Alarm? ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted November 9, 2006 Author Share Posted November 9, 2006 mom - 2006-11-09 12:40 PM Does anyone want to buy a secondhand Gas Attack Alarm? ;-) I know you're kidding, but I'd hang on to them, they should pick up any LPG leakage so they won't be a wasted expense.It's reassuring to know Bradex Easy Start won't put you to sleep - it'll just kill you with the cough! Still, if the cough is as good as the Prof said, you'll wake all the neighbours anyhow so attackers won't be able to escape undetected.Question is, can you run and cough at the same time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mom Posted November 9, 2006 Share Posted November 9, 2006 Definitely kidding... as an LPG detector it is still valuable. Unfortunately it is not just LPG that sets it off! A plate of beans and a few too many ales has a similar effect ;-) But at least the repeated jump out of bed to the screaming alarm stops the heavy snoring! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basil Posted November 9, 2006 Share Posted November 9, 2006 Thanks for confirming what we always believed Brian. An interesting thought to me anyway is, I wonder how the insurance companies that have been tucked up with the dubious claims backed up by the myth would view this and why have they not consulted the RCA? Edit (Clearly they may have done, they could be one of the 'other' enquirers!) Bas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted November 9, 2006 Author Share Posted November 9, 2006 Well, yes. Thinking along those lines I tried folowing up on the October MMM "Motorcaravanabout" item entitled "Perils of Reversing" (p51). Since it seemed someone had been doing a little claims analysis, I thought they'd at least have figures for robbery, if not robbery with gas. My contact with Safeguard resulted, after a struggle, in the admission that the information had come from their underwriters, Allianz Cornhill. So off to A.C. Very nice PR lady took on the question, and came back with the following answer."Hello Brian, I have looked into this for you and this is what I have found out. The information you had seen by Safeguard that referred to a number of claims where owners had reversed into another object/vehicle was promotional research and material they had, and it seems that the narcotic gases information came from not their promotional research but the article you saw in a magazine which was research carried out by another company but not Safeguard, the Swinton Group of Allianz Cornhill. Neither Safeguard or Allianz Cornhill have carried out research into the use of narcotic gases and robbing a motorhome (as it seems to be a more prominent incident on motorway service areas of France). There may be other insurance companies that have carried out this research, but none that we can refer you to unfortunately. I do find this topic very interesting and agree that it's an important issue for 'motorhomers' but at the moment I unfortunately don't have any information I can provide you with to aid you in your search. There are a few things I suggest at the current time:- Go back to the article and see who the statements on narcotic gases are attributed to and if it's not clear contact the magazine direct- Write a letter to the magazine stating you feelings and concerns on the issue which may lead to the letter being published and instigating reactions from other readers and may even convince the magazine to do some research of their own into the subject.- Contact various other press offices of insurance companies and find out if they have carried out any research of this nature.Sorry I can't be of help at present, but it doesn't look like Allianz Cornhill are likely to do any forthcoming research into the narcotic gas issue because we haven't had any claims of this nature and therefore cannot warrant carrying our research into this subject. All the bestNow, there is a fair amount of gobbledegook in the reply stemming from a failure to read the question properly, but the response on the point of robbery/gas attack stats is clear enough. They don't have any and won't be looking. Remarkably, without the stats they know they haven't handled any claims for robbery involving gas. The promotional research is just that, instancing a few claims with no higher motivation than getting their name in print. Not at all intended to help you or me to a better understanding of risk. You may hope, like me, that there is some greater intelligence in an insurance office somewhere, sifting over the claims categories to see if they can work out what people could do to reduce claims and so premiums. Oh, what naive fools we are! If money in from premiums, less % profit required, is greater than money out via claims, give the boys a bonus. If not, put up premiums!That's insurance for ya! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Dwight Posted November 9, 2006 Share Posted November 9, 2006 Well done Brian, Just as I thought, I had always believed that anasthetic gas was unstable. In my line of work I have seen the precautions taken by the medical staff when preparing people who are going to be anethetised. It seem that these so called gas attacks are an Insurance scam. David. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clive Posted November 9, 2006 Share Posted November 9, 2006 I,ve just woken up! Whats been going on? Where am I? Oh my head!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted November 9, 2006 Author Share Posted November 9, 2006 Clive, Clive, Clive!You're supposed to inhale it, not drink it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Sykes Posted November 10, 2006 Share Posted November 10, 2006 I appreciate what is being stated here, but, there are actually incidents where the occupants have been rendered unconscious and the motor home ransacked. The may have been a recorded incident in either Spain or France this year that made the news. As for not being able to buy the gas or agent outside the KGB. It would be quite easy for a car to pull up alongside a motor home and take a pipe from the car’s exhaust to the motor home; haemoglobin has an affinity for carbon monoxide, you don’t wake, you just die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bognormike Posted November 10, 2006 Share Posted November 10, 2006 so les, how many people have died? Think we would have heard about it by now...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Sykes Posted November 10, 2006 Share Posted November 10, 2006 Thus far I have no record of deaths, but there are incidents of robberies using this technique!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Madge Posted November 10, 2006 Share Posted November 10, 2006 Les Sykes - 2006-11-10 8:13 PM Thus far I have no record of deaths, but there are incidents of robberies using this technique!! OK Les, Lets have chapter and verse please. Don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted November 10, 2006 Author Share Posted November 10, 2006 More haemogoblins, than haemoglobin, say I. Car must have been a Roller, anything less'd have woken me! Where does this all come from. I agree with Don, let's have the facts, chapter and verse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bill h Posted November 11, 2006 Share Posted November 11, 2006 As a person who has been "put under" by Ether (I believe thats what it was) I've reached 80 with little difficulty, athough perhaps this could have been an excuse for my poor academic standards in earlier life, (I wish I'd thought of that before) The use of this liquid is well remembered in that I was aged 7 at the time. It was decided my tonsils should be removed. As I lay flat on a bed a cloth was placed over my mouth and nose. Drops of the liquid were then allowed to fall onto the cloth................... "Hey Presto, the wonders of the good old days" no tonsils. I have no knowledge of feeling unwell afterwards neither any other effect. Having always doubted the so called gas problem the medical comment is welcome. bill h (Rapido) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basil Posted November 11, 2006 Share Posted November 11, 2006 Well thanks again Brian, it seems that even the insurance company you have contacted have only heard about this happening from a 'friend of a friend' then. As for Mr Sykes comment, this sounds more like desperation to promote the myth to me, a car with its exhaust into the house !!! Cmon who you trying to kid now? Bas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RonB Posted November 11, 2006 Share Posted November 11, 2006 If anyone was going to be gassed I would have thought it would be lorry drivers when low life were after their cargo. In which case the Road Haulage Association would surely have been notified. Any lorry drivers out there who can either confirm attacks or nail it once and for all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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