Gas attacks

[Brian Kirby]

A Daily Star reader?  In Horsham?  I must advise the Telegraph editor immediately!

[michele]

Bet the actress was either drunk or on drugs got herself robbed by her friends and was not about to report it :D

[bob b]

Brian Kirby - 2008-09-23 8:10 PM A Daily Star reader?  In Horsham?  I must advise the Telegraph editor immediately!

In mitigation, I was breakfasting in a Little Chef and it was lying on the table. A Telegraph would have been welcome as I could have dashed off the cryptic crossword whilst awaiting my order!

Chastened of Horsham.

[Whiskeymac]

As a newcomer I was attracted to this thread since a near neighbour claimed to have been subjected to such an attack 2 years ago.  I'll try to ellicit more info, though I doubt I could swear to the authenticity of it.

 

Since there is some discussion of carbon monoxide poisoning, at risk of being accused of highjacking the thread, it might be apposite to pass on a timely warning.  The sort of weather we are experiencing currently of high pressure, no wind, damp nights, are ideal for CO from generator exhausts to stay close to the ground.  I doubt that they would enter a motorhome in sufficient quantities to be dangerous, but they can definitely enter tents and awnings.  My career as a cold war warrier signaller had me spending many months on wooded hilltops and I am aware of the deaths of too many soldiers from this cause over the years.

 

[flyboyprowler]

Brian Kirby - 2006-11-08 11:15 PM

Since this debate rattles on from time to time, with much deliberation over how and what, I thought I'd try to get an expert view on the feasibility of using narcotic gases to knock out the occupante of motorhomes/caravans.

Since they do this all the time, so to speak, I thought I'd ask the Royal College of Anaesthetists. Somewhat to my surprise, they provided the following reply. Interesting isn't it? Sleep tight folks!

Dear Mr Kirby,

Thank you for your enquiry. I would like to inform you that you are not the first enquirer with this question. Professor Hatch, our Clinical Advisor, has given the following previous comments:

"I can give you a categorical assurance that it would not be possible to render someone unconscious with ether without their knowledge, even if they were sleeping at the time. Ether is an extremely pungent agent and a relatively weak anaesthetic by modern standards and has a very irritant affect of the air passages, causing coughing and sometimes vomiting. It takes some time to reach unconsciousness, even if given by direct application to the face on a rag, and the concentration needed by some sort of spray into a room would be enormous. The smell hangs around for days and would be obvious to anyone the next day.

There are much more powerful agents around now, some of which are almost odourless. However, these would be unlikely to be able to achieve the effect you describe, and the cost would be huge enough to deter any thief unless he was after the crown jewels. The only practicable agent is probably the one used by the Russians in the Moscow siege - I advised the BBC on their programme about this. The general feeling is that they used an agent which is not available outside the KGB!

Finally, unsupervised anaesthesia, which is what we are really talking about is very dangerous. In the Moscow siege about 20% of victims died from asphyxia, because their airways were unprotected. If the reports you talk about are true I would have expected a significant number of deaths or cases of serious brain damage to have been reported."

I hope this information is helpful to you.

The Royal College of Anaesthetists

It was interesting to read the above article, and others associated with it. As this was some years ago, and time marches on, are there any substantiated events that would warrant the fitting off a narcotic gas detector in the modern era? I am still interested in buying one, but won't waste the money if not really needed.

[Muswell]

Oh no not again! Chatterbox calls....

[Derek Uzzell]

Since 2009 there have been several forum discussions about ‘gassing’. This 2020 thread is probably the most recent.

 

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Thieves-pumping-gas-into-my-campervan/54623/

 

CBE markets a gas detector (£60 - £80) and there’s an advert for it here

 

https://magnummotorhomes.co.uk/shop/security/gas-alarms/cbe-bmtg-lpg-soporific-gas-detector-232800/

 

The product aims to detect the presence in the air of LPG gas (butane, propane & their mixture) and soporific gas (ether gas with narcotic effect), so even if the chance of a ‘gas attack using ether'’ happening to you is near zero, as LPG leaks can definitely happen, the CBE detector’s LPG-sensing capability might be worth the outlay.

[Brian Kirby]

flyboyprowler - 2021-09-09 1:31 PM

 

It was interesting to read the above article, and others associated with it. As this was some years ago, and time marches on, are there any substantiated events that would warrant the fitting off a narcotic gas detector in the modern era? I am still interested in buying one, but won't waste the money if not really needed.

It is a judgement only the individual can make. There are too many variables for anyone to be categorical over whether or not such alarms do what they claim to do, or whether it is possible to gas the occupants of a van without killing them.

 

But, reading what the College said then, it is clear anaesthetics are capable of killing, and that the dose administered must be carefully controlled if this is to be avoided. I fail to see how an anaesthetic gas administered by injecting it into a motorhome can be expected to achieve anaesthesia and not death.

 

First, what is the volume of the van to allow the right quantity to be injected?

 

Second, how likely is it that a suitably skilled and knowledgeable anaesthetist would be touring known favourite motorhome parking places with a view to robbing their occupants. Why would they take such foolhardy risks to marginally boost their already good incomes?

 

Third, how many rooflights might be open allowing the anaesthetic to escape as it is injected, resulting only in lost anaesthetic with no anaesthesia.

 

Fourth, how is the gas to be injected? Although some say via the fridge vents, the area behind those vents is (supposedly :-)) sealed from the van interior to ensure flue gases cannot penetrate the interior.

 

Fifth, vans in parking areas (where these "attacks" have supposedly taken place) will usually have fridges running on gas, which involves a naked flame, and anaesthetic gases are highly flammable!

 

Sixth, a number of the gas detectors are vague as to exactly which gases they detect, with only hints that detecting gases such a carbon monoxide implies they will also detect anaesthetic gases. They may, they may not, I don't know, but the vague nature of the supporting claims I have seen persuades me to think the sellers don't know either, but can spot a way to boost their turnover by feeding people's anxieties.

 

Me, I reckon someone invented the excuse to cover their embarrassment at having spent a night in a daft place, possibly being very tired after a long drive, possibly exacerbated by too much falling down water, possibly compounded by leaving doors or windows unlocked, and needed to present a believable explanation as to how they came to be robbed for their insurance claim. Once the excuse was publicised, others followed suit, and the papers took advantage of a silly season story, although I suspect some (though I'm only a small minority), were not robbed of anything, but simply saw a means to concoct a pretty foolproof fraudulent insurance claim

 

As far as I'm concerned if people wish to install gas alarms for peace of mind - and why not - they are entirely at liberty to do so and no criticism is intended above: carbon monoxide detection is a highly sensible and well proven benefit.

 

But, if the concept of overnighting on motorway rest areas, or in other "wild" locations, causes people unease, I just wonder whether they might not gain greater peace of mind by making their overnight halts in more secure locations! :-D

[TeamRienza]

Interestingly many of the incidents seem to involve rather large amounts of cash, expensive watches and jewellery and of course Apple products.

 

My motorhoming risk assessment means that we don’t take items that are expensive and certainly little cash working on the assumption of limiting losses if the van is broken into whilst we are away from it. I think that is a more likely scenario.

 

I also ponder on the fact that whilst these alleged gassing are occurring in France etc, I have not, in my reading, come across any Uk incidents, despite there having been free access throughout Europe in the past with our fair share of criminals and gangs operating here.

 

Davy

[witzend]

Brian Kirby - 2021-09-09 6:33 PM

 

But, reading what the College said then, it is clear anaesthetics are capable of killing, and that the dose administered must be carefully controlled if this is to be avoided. I fail to see how an anaesthetic gas administered by injecting it into a motorhome can be expected to achieve anaesthesia and not death.

 

Probably just been lucky that no one has died these people most likely don't care one way or the other if their victims wake up or not

[Derek Uzzell]

This thread was begun by Brian Kirby in November 2006 and ground to a halt in February 2009 by which time it had attracted 253 replies.

 

Resurrecting old threads is known in forum-speak as necroposting and it often happens when someone searches for something on a forum and comes across an old ‘dead’ thread that had some relevance..

 

It’s much better to start a new thread to address any questions and include a link ireferencing the old thread. This makes an enquiry much easier to follow than having to wade through a bunch of old stuff to figure out what a comment/question is about. Necroposting is also done a lot by spam/disruptive forum members, so there is always a negative association to it on top of the functional reasons.

 

As a rule of thumb I suggest there needs to be a very persuasve reason to resurrect any thread older than 6 months. A follow-up to a technical problem for which a solution was eventually found would be an acceptable example.

 

I’m going to let this thread continue until it runs out of steam, but I’m not going to let it go off topic. So any Chatterboxy-type comments will get the chop.

[flyboyprowler]

Derek Uzzell - 2021-09-10 7:52 AM

 

This thread was begun by Brian Kirby in November 2006 and ground to a halt in February 2009 by which time it had attracted 253 replies.

 

Resurrecting old threads is known in forum-speak as necroposting and it often happens when someone searches for something on a forum and comes across an old ‘dead’ thread that had some relevance..

 

It’s much better to start a new thread to address any questions and include a link ireferencing the old thread. This makes an enquiry much easier to follow than having to wade through a bunch of old stuff to figure out what a comment/question is about. Necroposting is also done a lot by spam/disruptive forum members, so there is always a negative association to it on top of the functional reasons.

 

As a rule of thumb I suggest there needs to be a very persuasve reason to resurrect any thread older than 6 months. A follow-up to a technical problem for which a solution was eventually found would be an acceptable example.

 

I’m going to let this thread continue until it runs out of steam, but I’m not going to let it go off topic. So any Chatterboxy-type comments will get the chop.

 

Apologies Derek, I had meant to start the thread off again as a new topic, but pressed the wrong button. As far as I know, once submitted, a post can't be cancelled? Fingers wrapped and lines written!

[Keithl]

flyboyprowler - 2021-09-10 9:40 AM

 

...pressed the wrong button. As far as I know, once submitted, a post can't be cancelled?

Ainsley

 

Two ways out of that situation...

 

First edit the post and put a request for it to be deleted in place of the original text.

Second, send a PM to either Derek or myself and we will delete it for you.

 

Keith.

[Brian Kirby]

witzend - 2021-09-09 9:28 PM

Brian Kirby - 2021-09-09 6:33 PM

But, reading what the College said then, it is clear anaesthetics are capable of killing, and that the dose administered must be carefully controlled if this is to be avoided. I fail to see how an anaesthetic gas administered by injecting it into a motorhome can be expected to achieve anaesthesia and not death.

Probably just been lucky that no one has died these people most likely don't care one way or the other if their victims wake up or not

Possibly, and it's possible I've missed the reports, but I don't recall reading of motorhomes full of dead, or seriously incapacitated, people turning up on parking areas. Only of people complaining of waking feeling woozy, only to find they been robbed while they slept, so presuming they must have been gassed. One might think a van containing dead people would have attracted far more, and more widespread press attention than reports of merely presumed "gassing". And, for some reason, almost invariably in the peak summer period.

 

It just doesn't seem credible, to me. What about the hordes from all over northern Europe who travel to Spain/Portugal for the winter? Why not them? Going long term, so likely to have more of value, including cash. Nice dark evenings for cover. Almost invariably using the obvious motorway routes, so relatively easy to find. etc. etc. I'm not saying the odd robbery doesn't take place: sadly it is a fact of life. But, with a bit of common sense around where people decide to stop, I suspect the risk is way down the reality scale.

 

But, as above, if a gas alarm brings peace to the uneasy mind, why not?

[Derek Uzzell]

Keithl - 2021-09-10 10:52 AM

 

flyboyprowler - 2021-09-10 9:40 AM

 

...pressed the wrong button. As far as I know, once submitted, a post can't be cancelled?

Ainsley

 

Two ways out of that situation...

 

First edit the post and put a request for it to be deleted in place of the original text.

Second, send a PM to either Derek or myself and we will delete it for you.

 

Keith.

 

After a post has been submitted there’s a 30-minute 'period of grace’ during which the poster can edit his/her post. (However, a non-Moderator poster cannot delete his/her post even if he/she has ‘blanked’ it.)

 

I’m not sure if the 30-minutes capability/limitation was ever specifically stated here, but it was plainly known about in late-2006 not long after the O&AL forums came into being.

 

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Tyre-pressures-Beware-/5848/

 

My understanding from earlier comments is that, as long as a post continues to carry the EDIT button, the poster is able to edit it. As a Moderator I have no-time-limit editing powers (so everybody’s postings have an EDIT button on them where I’m concerned) and if I come across blank or duplicated postings I’ll normally delete them without being asked.

 

Forum Moderators can freeze and/or ’sticky’ a thread, move it to another of the forums or delete it in its entirety. They can also delete postings within a thread and edit their content. I can edit a posting at any time however recent or old it is and (unlike for non-Moderator forum participants) my editing will leave no ‘fingerprints’. This means that - if I so chose - I could rewrite posts so that they meant something completely different from what the original posters intended. In practice, I rarely fiddle about with another person’s posting unless it will obviously benefit - for instance when it’s clear that a critical word (like “not”) has been omitted.

 

However, although I can edit or delete individual postings, that’s all I can do at the postings level. If a thread starts up and gets a lot of attention over a shortish period and then goes off topic or people start getting at each others throats, I can’t leave ‘good stuff’ in place and move off-topic/slagging-off posts elsewhere. I can move the whole thread to another O&AL forum (eg. Chatterbox), or freeze it to stop the rot, or delete offending posts, or delete all the text in each offending post and replace it with (say) “CENSORED” or “MODERATED”.

[keninpalamos]

That Statement must be at least 10 years old now. It has been posted on here many ties and still stands up in practice.

[witzend]

Brian Kirby - 2021-09-10 10:55 AM

 

witzend - 2021-09-09 9:28 PM

Brian Kirby - 2021-09-09 6:33 PM

But, reading what the College said then, it is clear anaesthetics are capable of killing, and that the dose administered must be carefully controlled if this is to be avoided. I fail to see how an anaesthetic gas administered by injecting it into a motorhome can be expected to achieve anaesthesia and not death.

Probably just been lucky that no one has died these people most likely don't care one way or the other if their victims wake up or not

Possibly, and it's possible I've missed the reports, but I don't recall reading of motorhomes full of dead,

Theres every chance that it would never reach our news I've never seen this reported but We stopped at a village aire in France nr German border several years ago and it was fenced off because 2 people had been murdered in a van a couple of days before according to the police man on duty not that uncommon to have break ins in the area blaming Eastern Europeans.

[Derek Uzzell]

The miracle of the internet allows ‘foreign’ discussions on motorhome gas attacks to be accessed. For example, a GOOGLE-search on "camping-car attaque au gaz” produces the results shown on the following link and entries can be translated from French into English if so wished.

 

https://tinyurl.com/wemubc6

 

And this GOOGLE-search on "Wohnmobil Gasangriff” resulted in the following retrievals (with the 1st entry “Gas Überfälle auf Camper” being fun).

 

https://tinyurl.com/hpp7ue2p

 

I’ve always thought that debate on leisure-vehicle gas attacks is like debating Pascal’s wager

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_wager

 

Even if gas attacks never happen and have never happened, and one is certain this is so, it does no harm to fit a device designed to detect LPG leaks (that can occur) and to take commonsense security measures before sleeping overnight in a motorhome.

 

[flyboyprowler]

Derek Uzzell - 2021-09-11 8:26 AM

 

 

And this GOOGLE-search on "Wohnmobil Gasangriff” resulted in the following retrievals (with the 1st entry “Gas Überfälle auf Camper” being fun).

 

https://tinyurl.com/hpp7ue2p

 

 

I found this particular article to be the most believable so far, and conclude that if you are fitting a CO detector in the first place, for a relatively low cost, it may be worth upgrading to a narcotic gas version or alternatively fit a deadlock on the entry door or doors!

 

Thanks to Derek for a comprehensive article.

[StuartO]

Derek Uzzell - 2021-09-08 ……I’ve always thought that debate on leisure-vehicle gas attacks is like debating Pascal’s Wager ….

 

I’m 76 and I was fairly well educated and have traveled and read extensively - but I had never heard of Pascal’s Wager, but isn’t it nice to know about? Notwithstanding all the rubbish we are likely to encounter on the internet it’s good to learn something and if we look and listen as we browse we will certainly continue to do so. Thank you Derek for yet another Pearl.

[teflon2]

Derek Uzzell - 2021-09-11 8:26 AM

 

The miracle of the internet allows ‘foreign’ discussions on motorhome gas attacks to be accessed. For example, a GOOGLE-search on "camping-car attaque au gaz” produces the results shown on the following link and entries can be translated from French into English if so wished.

 

https://tinyurl.com/wemubc6

 

And this GOOGLE-search on "Wohnmobil Gasangriff” resulted in the following retrievals (with the 1st entry “Gas Überfälle auf Camper” being fun).

 

https://tinyurl.com/hpp7ue2p

 

I’ve always thought that debate on leisure-vehicle gas attacks is like debating Pascal’s wager

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_wager

 

Even if gas attacks never happen and have never happened, and one is certain this is so, it does no harm to fit a device designed to detect LPG leaks (that can occur) and to take commonsense security measures before sleeping overnight in a motorhome.

 

Going by memory (sadly not too good now ) there was another philosopher who used a similar statement something like :

 

IF i BELIEVE IN GOD AND HE DOES NOT EXIST i WILL DIE AND NOT KNOW IT.

 

IF I DO NOT BELIEVE IN GOD AND HE EXISTS I WILL BE CONSIGNED TO HELL.

 

THEREFORE IT IS SENSIBLE FOR ME TO BELIEVE IN GOD.

[TeamRienza]

Interesting links and enjoyed reading them, thanks Derek.

 

However you must now go and sit in the naughty corner for having deviated a 2009 thread on gassing to the possibility of a god existing!

 

Got to be the biggest thread slip of all time!

 

Davy

[Derek Uzzell]

I cited the Pascal’s Wager ‘argument’ here years ago when continuous or periodic hook-up charging of leisure-batteries was being discussed, essentially suggesting that it was really a “Please yourself” issue.

 

I’ve now had a guts full of this thread, so I’ve excised the last several postings and frozen it.

[witzend]

Derek Uzzell - 2021-09-12 8:23 AM

 

I cited the Pascal’s Wager ‘argument’ here years ago when continuous or periodic hook-up charging of leisure-batteries was being discussed, essentially suggesting that it was really a “Please yourself” issue.

 

I’ve now had a guts full of this thread, so I’ve excised the last several postings and frozen it.

 

Thats a pity as it was one of the most active threads on Here

 

................

 

Plainly my 'freezing' failed to take - but now it has. ;-) ;-) ;-)