Gas attacks

[Guest Syd]

We are new to European holidays having made our first foray with our caravan this March.

Travelled to Spain and on returning to France we stopped on a Aire for the night.

 

We were robbed, well and truely robbed of everything, we never heard a thing, but no hang overs at all for the four of us, no pervading smells, nothing, just an open door, so I assume no gas was used.

 

On reporting the robbery to the police the officer informed me that while the robbers may have been French they were most likely to have been "Illegals" and the situation was getting worse each month.

 

I mentioned the frequency of reported gas attacks and was told firmly not to listen to such reports but if gas was used it would be more likely to be of the pepper type gas in the event of them being disturbed.

 

Im in the same camp as the majority of the "thinking members" of this forum. Robberies yes but gas use unlikely.

[Clive]

My wife responded to an article in the C&CC club magazine on Gas attacks and included a copy of Brian’s posting from the Royal College of Anaesthetists in her response.

 

What came back was a long response putting a counter argument from a journalist and Broadcaster who works for the C&CC and other media under various guises from time to time.

I asked this journalist directly if I could post the words on this forum and the answer was a definite no.

 

The best offer I could get was to remove all the traceability from the words and post it under another name. This I declined as it would be pointless.

 

This journalist and broadcaster has been involved in this debate for about ten years and like most sane people found it at first un-believable. It was seen as a way that people could make bogus claims on their holiday insurance. When first getting involved all reports seemed to emanate from a aire just south of Lyons. Lyons Police are reported to have been solely in charge of a long term investigation of sleeping gas attacks for all of southern France and that they received 20 – 25 claims a year all on the A7 and south of Lyons. Only two or three attacks were on sleeping motor caravanners, none on caravanners, with the other reports coming from truck drivers. It seems that one particular ethnic group of illegal immigrants were involved. This journalist reports being given sight of the original reports by the Police who took the matter very seriously. It was said that this ethnic group had grown so big that it had split and part had moved to just north of Barcelona.

One attack was reported to have been captured on CCTV camera where something was squirted into the fridge vent. I was given much detail of this in follow on emails but asked not to make it public because of ongoing investigations.

The journalist makes the point that these reported attacks were on people who had driven long and were already tired. They were not necessarily knocked out by the gas but just had their depth of slumber increased.

My interchange with this journalist totals nine pages and included four telephone calls.

 

My thoughts?

Robberies? Most certainly.

Gas attacks? May be?

But what does not stack up in my mind is that if one squirts a highly flammable gas into a fridge vent of a motorhome in a aire, how come the occupants are not awoken by the loud BANG of the ensuing explosion as the fridge gas flame meets the gas?

 

My advice, Take reasonable precautions and park where there are (nice) people – but not south of Lyons or north of Barcelona!

 

Everything in life carries risk, just do what one can to minimise it.

 

[RonB]

I quite agree Clive. That section of the A7/A9 is notorious for robberies, as we found out some years ago, and it's getting worse.

 

As for gas attacks we still keep an open mind. At one time there were those who simply would not believe that an intruder could force the door lock on your motorhome and be inside it whilst you still slept. They can and do - we know!

 

One other thought on gas alarms. They still alert you to butane/propane gas leaks, so they are worth fitting whether you believe in gas attacks or not.

 

Ron

[Guest Syd]

We were robbed on an Aire on the Autoroute A9 sens sud-nord called

Aire de Narbonne Vinassan a' 11110 Salles D'aude wich is about the third Aire up into France from the Spanish border.

As I said previously I had driven 490 miles that day and was VERY tired

Didn't hear a thing, have three gas alarms of various types in the caravan and nothing when off.

 

These guys are GOOD at what they do

[Brian Kirby]

To Clive, thanks for the extra information.  The main lesson seems to be to check your fridge installation!  If your fridge is properly installed, and sealed from the interior of your motorhome, any gas squirted into the fridge vents can't enter the motorhome.  Additionally, if gas is squirted into the fridge vents and the fridge is firing, the initial fireball will all be on the outside, possibly into the face of the squirt who squirted.  So, check your fridge installations and aid natural justice!

To Syd, I'm sorry to hear that you were robbed.  However, your story does underline a little hobby horse of mine about this rather overworked term "aire". 

To explain: on autoroutes in France there are two kinds of aire: aires de services, and aires de repos.  Both, you'll note, named "Aire" de (whatever).  The first group are service stations, such as are familiar on pretty much all European motorways.  The second group are rest areas, intended for those essential short term journey breaks, whether for exercise, toilets, or meals.

The Narbonne-Vinassan Nord and Sud Aires are aires de services.  Perhaps misleadingly for us Brits, they are listed in the Guide Officiel des Aires de Services Camping-Car, and other guides to aires, and are shown on the accompanying maps.

However, they are described in the accompanying text as service halts only, not as overnight parking places.  That is to say they are officially designated for refilling fresh water tanks, dumping waste and, possibly, having service points (bornes) which also allow re-charging batteries; and then moving on.  Thus they should be used only for service halts, maybe meal breaks, but not for overnight stays.  This is common to all autoroute aires, of whichever type, and whether shown in the various guides to aires or not, and cannot be emphasised too strongly.  The autoroute aires are not intended for, and are not suitable for, overnight stops.  If you choose to overnight on them you do not break a law, you just take a risk.

There are a number of stopover aires around Narbonne that are suitable for overnighting, some are free, some charge, but you'll have to leave the autoroute to get to them.  These, generally, offer much better security for overnight stops.

[Guest Syd]

Thanks Brian

As you say a bit confusing to newbies but I have attended to the security of the caravan more carefully now and do intend going back there again in June/July/Aug

 

I am minded to sit up through the night, on that same Aire, with the door unlokced but armed with a baseball bat.

 

 

[Don Madge]

Syd - 2007-05-18 1:27 PM

 

Thanks Brian

As you say a bit confusing to newbies but I have attended to the security of the caravan more carefully now and do intend going back there again in June/July/Aug

 

I am minded to sit up through the night, on that same Aire, with the door unlokced but armed with a baseball bat.

 

 

Make sure you have the ball and glove with you 8-) 8-)

 

Don

[michele]

Can we buy Mace in this country Or even pepper spray ?

[Clive]

"you'll have to leave the autoroute to get to them. These, generally, offer much better security for overnight stops."

 

Totally agree.

 

C.

 

[Don Madge]

Clive - 2007-05-21 4:26 PM

 

"you'll have to leave the autoroute to get to them. These, generally, offer much better security for overnight stops."

 

Totally agree.

 

C.

 

Clive,

 

What are you agreeing with (?)

 

Surprised to see you on here today with the new look MMM out I though you would have been busy reading it or has the boss beaten you to it again.

 

Don

[Guest caraprof]

michele - 2007-05-20 10:50 PM

 

Can we buy Mace in this country Or even pepper spray ?

 

No, they're illegal I'm afraid.

[Guest Syd]

I find it a bit anoying when everyone, including the French police, knows the robbery situation on Aires is getting worse but NO ONE seems to be doing anything to stop/reduce it.

 

It must be in the best interests of France to protect their visitors surely

[Brian Kirby]

But Syd

If people stay on the aires intended for overnight stopping, instead of those which are not, the incidence of robberies etc will be found to be very small indeed.  It is the inappropriate use of facilities that are not intended for overnighting that increases the risk to the traveller, and makes the policing difficult.  A robber on an autoruote will be miles (and probably several more robberies) away by the time the theft has been discovered, the police called, and they have arrived.  France is a big country within a Europe with open borders, so caution, and common sense, must be the watchwords when making overnight stops.  We just have to be much more selective where we stay.  The French are.

[Guest Syd]

Brian

Quiet correct, but as you yourself have already pointed out this Aire's thing is especially confusing for newbies, anyway if the robberies are occuring on Aires that are not designed foe overnighting then that is the place where the police should be. A few of nights stakeout on a few of these known dangerous Aires would be a pretty big deterant.

I agree it is no good calling the police after the event and believe the police, for once in their lives, should get to be a little pro-active.

 

Yes, and we should improve our security too.

[Brian Kirby]

Syd

I can't really comment on where the French police choose to place their priorities, but I somehow suspect staking out autoroute rest areas, where they would say people shouldn't be overnighting, in lieu of staking out areas where peole are encouraged to go but then get robbed, wouldn't come very high! 

From their point of view, I suspect, those who stayed in the "wrong kinds of aires", would simply be seen as having chosen to take a risk in favour of a free overnight stop.  The French police aren't hugely well known for being pro-active on such relatively minor crimes - or even major ones, if you ask the French!

[David Dwight]

Hi Brian.

I have noticed over the last few years that the French Police are very inconspicous in their absence. Once upon a time you would see several pairs on their Motor Cycles every day. In the last three or four years I have only seen the odd pair in the whole of our trips, none at all last year.

 

David.

[Guest Syd]

David Dwight - 2007-05-22 9:51 PM

 

Hi Brian.

I have noticed over the last few years that the French Police are very inconspicous in their absence. Once upon a time you would see several pairs on their Motor Cycles every day. In the last three or four years I have only seen the odd pair in the whole of our trips, none at all last year.

 

David.

 

I suppose they are like our police, too busy filling in paperwork to do what we the public expect them to be doing.

 

 

[Road Runner]

When we were robbed on the autopista 7 in Spain when we parked up in the evening there was a few police car there which made us feel slightly more secure.

 

My wife is convinced the local police were in on it by there casual attitude to it all.

 

They were the ones that woke us after a Spanish lorry driver had alerted them that he had been robbed.

 

We were one of maybe a dozen units that were robbed that night as I have stated before.

 

 

[Guest Syd]

Road Runner - 2007-05-30 3:59 PM

 

When we were robbed on the autopista 7 in Spain when we parked up in the evening there was a few police car there which made us feel slightly more secure.

 

My wife is convinced the local police were in on it by there casual attitude to it all.

 

They were the ones that woke us after a Spanish lorry driver had alerted them that he had been robbed.

 

We were one of maybe a dozen units that were robbed that night as I have stated before.

 

Sorry to hear that you have been robbed also.

People assume that we expose ourselves to the risk of being robbed because we choose to stay on the wrong type of Aire because they are free as against going to a caravan site. I suspect that in most cases this is not so.

Staying overnight on these Aires is done because we do not know the difference between suitable and unsuitable Aires because we are new to the game and so we do it in complete innocence.

Well I did anyway.

[Mike Parke]

I know that this subject has been 'done to death' on many a time but I saw the following statement in the March 2007 edition of 'Truck & Driver' recently & thought it many be worth presenting. The article was a good page in lenght but the 'nitti-gritti' I have quoted verbatim.

 

'The reported use of gas has now been confirmed by several combined law enforcement agencies including those of ,France, U.K., Italy, Spain & Belgium. There is still a high level of threat in France near to the Channel Ports. The threat is slightly different with drivers themselves more likely to be targetted than their loads. A recent study by the International Road Transport Union saw one in six of all European Freight drivers have suffered an attack over the last 5 years. 32% of drivers reported use of gas in the attack, about 1 in 3.'

 

I am very sceptical personally, regarding gas attack on m'homers although Cherry & I were broken into whilst parked up and asleep on an M.S.A. near Nancy several years ago. There was no evidence of gas being used as Cherry woke up during the theft but wisely feigned sleep! We still overnight on M.S.A.s en route to our destination as the chances of being hit twice we feel are pretty slim, (always the optimist!!)

 

Happy touring (and a good nights sleep!), Regards Mike.

[Brian Kirby]

Mike Parke - 2007-06-23 11:08 PM ...... The threat is slightly different with drivers themselves more likely to be targetted than their loads. .............Regards Mike.

With apologies for the abbreviation, and I appreciate the article was much longer.  The "combined law enforcement agencies" (whatever they are) are not named, so the reported incidents cannot be checked.  I do not know of such an agency in the UK, so cannot understand where their contribution can have come from.

However, unless a little typo crept into your transcribing of the above from the mag, I remain unimpressed.  The quote above hardly reveals someone who is at the sharp end of analytical thinking!  You're supposed to be clever enough to acquire and administer an anaesthetic gas, but you're only slightly more likely use it on the driver than on his load!  Really!

"I gassed and stole 30 tonnes of computer chips, while the driver slept undisturbed!"  Ho, ho!

Unless the information is elsewhere in the article, why not write to the editor of the said august periodical, and challenge him to produce the evidence for his claims, and also name these "combined law enforcement agencies" he cites as confirming gas as an agent in such attacks?  Might be a bit of fun, and it might even be informative! 

Alternatively, if the answers to the above are in the article, can you post them, so we can follow them up a bit?

[Mike Chapman]

Hello Brian,

 

With the greatest of respect may I suggest that you re-read the posting by Mike Parke.

 

The quote about drivers rather than loads being targeted is not about gas attacks but the driver being the target of an attack (physical OR by gas) presumably to gain access to the vehicle and any alarm systems, rather than an attempt to steal from the vehicle when the driver is not present. Not unlike the move by thieves to hijack cars from the driver rather than steal a vehicle from a car park and having to overcome the immobiliser and/or alarm system.

 

Like you, I would like to see the evidence for the article.

 

Regards,

 

Mike.

[Brian Kirby]

Mike Chapman - 2007-06-24 12:52 PM Hello Brian, With the greatest of respect may I suggest that you re-read the posting by Mike Parke. The quote about drivers rather than loads being targeted is not about gas attacks but the driver being the target of an attack (physical OR by gas) ................ Like you, I would like to see the evidence for the article. Regards, Mike.

Well, not as I read it Mike.  The subject of the paragraph is gas attacks.  The reference to the "threat" in the second sentence, must thus be presumed the threat of gas attacks.  As I read it, the conflation of the drivers with their loads is surely to be read in this same context? 

I'm sure that your interpretation is what the author of the article actually meant to be understood, but assuming he is a professional writer, I'm surely entitled to a bit of fun at his expense when he doesn't manage to say what he means?  :-)

Whatever, I agree a bit of substantiation wouldn't come amiss.

[Mike Parke]

Brian, I typed it as it was, 'verbatum', for interest. I suppose I should have said that I could not vouch for the authenticity of the information therein but I assumed, (a bad habit of mine for many years) that it would be read for what it was, 'interest' and not disected for proof, mistakes or whatever. 'Law enforcement agencies' are just that, agencies who enforce the law. In the U.K. we have, amongst others, the Metropolitan & Shire Police Forces, H.M. Customs & Excise and Local Authorities.

I was lent the magazine by an H.G.V. driver chum of mine for two reasons, firstly to see the article as he knows we travel extensively on the Continent with our m'home and secondly to pass away some time during a 12 hour night shift. Not all that is written can be supported by facts you know. Have you read 'Hansards' recently?!

 

Regards & happy touring Mike & Cherry

[Brian Kirby]

Mike

I wasn't in the slightest having a dig at you, or at your trouble in re-typing what the article says.  I hope that was clear. 

My reaction to the reported "law enforcement agencies" was provoked by the description of these as "combined", with the implication that we have combined agencies in UK.  We don't, and the author, who I assume is British, should know that. 

I tend to think these reported gas attacks are mainly the result of, shall we say, lazy, reporting.  I therefore thought the reference to "combined law enforcement agencies" in UK indicated a rather uninformed writer, so likely to be similarly uninformed on other matters as well. 

You're right with your list of the UK agencies, although I'd add HM Immigration Service (who have some rather funny powers), but my point is that they largely operate in sealed boxes - except in the case of specific, and usually large scale, smuggling activities or similar.  Whatever they are, combined they ain't!  I'm interested in knowing which of the UK ones he thought was up to speed on the gas attack front, because whichever it is appears not to have been briefing the Home Office on the topic!

No, of course you shouldn't believe everything you read in the papers.  However, this business of gas attacks, if there is any truth in it, deserves to be treated seriously.  A professional journalist, writing in the trade press of a group likely to be at risk of such attacks, and therefore liable to be concerned by what they read, surely owes them the courtesy of geting his facts right, rather than merely circulating rumour?  However, I've just been promised a copy of the article, so will now shut up until I've read the lot!