John52 Posted July 10, 2016 Author Share Posted July 10, 2016 antony1969 - 2016-07-10 7:25 AM John52 - 2016-07-10 6:59 AM pelmetman - 2016-07-09 9:19 PM I'm doing my bit by going on a Brexit victory tour of Europe for a couple of years :D ........ Enjoy it while you can If we have stayed in your pound would have risen above 1.50E instead of falling to 1.17E Does freedom have a price ?? No but we haven't got freedom. Britain is the least democratic country in Europe because it only elects a third of its constitution - it doesn't elect the Head of State or House of Lords. Even the third thats left isn't elected by a majority - Tony Blair only had 40% of the vote but was able to force through his promise to be with George Bush 'whatever', and take us into a catastrophic illegal invasion of Iraq even though the rest of Europe was against it - so much for supposedly being dictated to by Brussels - if only we were run from Brussels there would have been no Iraq war!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted July 10, 2016 Author Share Posted July 10, 2016 Probably better to compare the pound with the US dollar because Brexit hit the Euro as well. FT says it was 1.48$ before it became clear Brexit would win, last Thursday was 1.29$ making the pound worth 13% less, wheras it seems reasonable to assume it would have swung the other way and been worth more on a remain vote. I cannot understand how someone planning a 2 year tour of Europe thinks this is good news? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 John52 - 2016-07-10 8:29 AM I cannot understand how someone planning a 2 year tour of Europe thinks this is good news? It's all about perspective and to be in the position to be able to wander off for two years is a heck of a lot more positive than sitting here listening to all the moaners and whingers, and if a few less Euros for your Quid as the price of a better future is your biggest worry then you would indeed be a lucky bunny and I too I would pay it without hesitation. It would not be so bad if the whingers had anything to whinge about other than what they think might happen to make them whinge even more but fortunatley for every whinger there are more and more joyful souls delighted at the opportunity to put the Great back into Britain. With many of the remainers now getting to grips at making it work the future, after the intial fallout and the uncertainty of what will be a difficult transitional period of unknown length, does indeed look to me and to many others to be very bright. So whilst I respect your right to your opinion may we have a little less negativity and a little more positivity please. Always look on the bright side of life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 John52 - 2016-07-10 6:59 AM pelmetman - 2016-07-09 9:19 PM I'm doing my bit by going on a Brexit victory tour of Europe for a couple of years :D ........ Enjoy it while you can If we have stayed in your pound would have risen above 1.50E instead of falling to 1.17E It's a price worth paying to get my country back B-) ........... Even if we reach parity Spain will still be a bargain ;-) .......14 quid for a 3 course meal including wine :D ...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 John52 - 2016-07-10 8:14 AM antony1969 - 2016-07-10 7:25 AM John52 - 2016-07-10 6:59 AM pelmetman - 2016-07-09 9:19 PM I'm doing my bit by going on a Brexit victory tour of Europe for a couple of years :D ........ Enjoy it while you can If we have stayed in your pound would have risen above 1.50E instead of falling to 1.17E Does freedom have a price ?? No but we haven't got freedom. Britain is the least democratic country in Europe because it only elects a third of its constitution - it doesn't elect the Head of State or House of Lords. Even the third thats left isn't elected by a majority - Tony Blair only had 40% of the vote but was able to force through his promise to be with George Bush 'whatever', and take us into a catastrophic illegal invasion of Iraq even though the rest of Europe was against it - so much for supposedly being dictated to by Brussels - if only we were run from Brussels there would have been no Iraq war!! Leaving the EU is the start to the reformation of our democracy........the next election will probably see the electorate moving to the right, which given that Whitehall and the Judiciary are riven with left wingers, that would at least provide a bit of balance :D ........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 pelmetman - 2016-07-10 9:06 AM Leaving the EU is the start to the reformation of our democracy....... Haven't heard of any plans to do that. We are sticking with the " first past the post "electoral system as far as I know. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antony1969 Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 Tracker - 2016-07-10 8:41 AM John52 - 2016-07-10 8:29 AM I cannot understand how someone planning a 2 year tour of Europe thinks this is good news? It's all about perspective and to be in the position to be able to wander off for two years is a heck of a lot more positive than sitting here listening to all the moaners and whingers, and if a few less Euros for your Quid as the price of a better future is your biggest worry then you would indeed be a lucky bunny and I too I would pay it without hesitation. It would not be so bad if the whingers had anything to whinge about other than what they think might happen to make them whinge even more but fortunatley for every whinger there are more and more joyful souls delighted at the opportunity to put the Great back into Britain. With many of the remainers now getting to grips at making it work the future, after the intial fallout and the uncertainty of what will be a difficult transitional period of unknown length, does indeed look to me and to many others to be very bright. So whilst I respect your right to your opinion may we have a little less negativity and a little more positivity please. Always look on the bright side of life. Looks like John is the forums David Lammy , Tottenham MP ... All those Brexit types I spoke to before the vote had kinda managed to work out all by themselves that a £ fall was very likely to happen , then given time it would come back again ... Unfortunately one thing those millions didn't take into account was the remainers negativity and bitterness and constant doom and gloom that they seem unable or not willing to move on from Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 John52 - 2016-07-10 8:29 AM Probably better to compare the pound with the US dollar because Brexit hit the Euro as well. FT says it was 1.48$ before it became clear Brexit would win, last Thursday was 1.29$ making the pound worth 13% less, wheras it seems reasonable to assume it would have swung the other way and been worth more on a remain vote. I cannot understand how someone planning a 2 year tour of Europe thinks this is good news? I'm not planning on going to the states ;-) ........besides with the problems that are stacking up against the euro, I suspect it won't be long before the pound starts going the other way ;-) ............ We've already discovered the benefits of not joining the euro........and the dire predictions put about by the Remain camp if we voted for Brexit have failed to materialize, much to their disappointment :D ...... I should imagine our exporters are having a grand old time with the exchange rate, which in turn will have a positive effect on our balance of trade figures B-) ...... Sadly those lovers of all things German will have to dig a bit deeper.........but I can live with that (lol) ..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 malc d - 2016-07-10 9:18 AM pelmetman - 2016-07-10 9:06 AM Leaving the EU is the start to the reformation of our democracy....... Haven't heard of any plans to do that. We are sticking with the " first past the post "electoral system as far as I know. ;-) Its only a matter of time Malc ;-) ...........UKIP have come second behind labour and the Tories all over the shop..........next election they may well be first past the post :D ........especially if all those reawakened labour voters have now got the taste for giving the establishment a kicking >:-) .......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 pelmetman - 2016-07-10 9:20 AM ........and the dire predictions put about by the Remain camp if we voted for Brexit have failed to materialize, much to their disappointment :D ...... Bit early to say that. Don't forget that in the year 2030 you will be £4300.00 worse off per year than you are now. David Cameron said so. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 malc d - 2016-07-10 9:28 AM pelmetman - 2016-07-10 9:20 AM ........and the dire predictions put about by the Remain camp if we voted for Brexit have failed to materialize, much to their disappointment :D ...... Bit early to say that. Don't forget that in the year 2030 you will be £4300.00 worse off per year than you are now. David Cameron said so. ;-) Funny thing is Malc...........I've found over the years the less I earn the happier I am :D .........but in 18 months time I get my Navy pension B-) ..........I'll still have to wait for another 6 years for the state to pay me to be a full time member of the idle classes though *-) ........ I'm also told by the Doom & Gloom merchants that they'll be a house price crash.........which kinda leaves me in a quandary :-| ...........do I believe them and make a killing in a couple of years time......or do I jump back on the housing ladder straight away? :-S ..........have to say the housing market in Lincolnshire is very buoyant at the moment.......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted July 10, 2016 Author Share Posted July 10, 2016 antony1969 - 2016-07-10 9:19 AM work out all by themselves that a £ fall was very likely to happen , then given time it would come back again ... The currency market doesn't work like that Anthony. If traders believed the pound would be back to $1.48 pre Brexit level again next month, it would be $1.48 again today, because they would immediately buy pounds until it reached that level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted July 10, 2016 Author Share Posted July 10, 2016 pelmetman - 2016-07-10 9:20 AM I'm not planning on going to the states ;-) Like most commodities Oil and gas are priced in US dollars....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted July 10, 2016 Author Share Posted July 10, 2016 pelmetman - 2016-07-10 9:45 AM I'm also told by the Doom & Gloom merchants that they'll be a house price crash..... FWIW there won't be a house price crash because it isn't the EU pumping up house prices - its the UK Government restricting supply with the worlds most onerous planning system, whilst subsidising demand with taxpayers borrowed money through their so called 'Help to Buy' and Housing Benefit. Osborne thought that threatening a fall in house prices would encourage people to vote remain. But that backfired on him - from that moment on the polls swunfg in favour of Brexit. Osborne failed to realise that, unlike his constituents in Tatton, the 'have nots' want a fall in house prices, and there are more 'have nots' than 'haves' British Industry is already starved of investment because Osborne's housing market interventions made unproductive property speculation more profitable than productive industry. Its about to get a whole lot worse. If you were an international company looking to invest in a new factory or warehouse would you choose to build it in the EU, or in Britain where it might be on the wrong side of trade barriers in a couple of years time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 Tracker - 2016-07-10 8:41 AM.....................It would not be so bad if the whingers had anything to whinge about other than what they think might happen to make them whinge even more but fortunatley for every whinger there are more and more joyful souls delighted at the opportunity to put the Great back into Britain. But, equally true, is that the Brexiteers have nothing to celebrate than what they think might happen to make them celebrate. Whether remaining or leaving will be more likely to put the Great back into Britain is, as yet, unknown. People should not assume that remainers think the future prosperity of the country any less important than the Brexiteers think it. They just look at the possibilities, and reach a different conclusion. You seem to be assuming that because a majority voted leave, it follows that they will be right. T'an't necessarily so! With many of the remainers now getting to grips at making it work the future, after the intial fallout and the uncertainty of what will be a difficult transitional period of unknown length, does indeed look to me and to many others to be very bright. I haven't seen evidence that anyone has, as yet, begun to get to grips to making it work in the future. Where is this evidence, please? So whilst I respect your right to your opinion may we have a little less negativity and a little more positivity please. Always look on the bright side of life. This seems to be a glass half empty / glass half full, argument. Optimism (positivity) is a state of mind, as is pessimism (negativity). Realism (rationality) is generally a more useful - though inevitably failure prone - guide to the future than either. Which is a long way round saying that we shan't know one way or the other until we reach the future. When will that be, and what would it have looked like if we'd voted to remain instead? We can never know for certain, but it won't prevent the debate from continuing, as each unforeseen future event unfolds. Remember Macmillan? "Events, dear boy, events". :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave225 Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 A few points to offer. A decision was taken by the UK as a whole in a democratically organised referendum. There are many decisions taken with which I may disagree, but if it is democratically achieved, I have to live with it. The ‘remainers’ who are still whingeing need to realise that. If they did not accept the ‘rules’ then they should have said so before it happened. By continuing they are creating the very chaos they seek to avoid. I am not surprised there are few plans about how we proceed, nobody had any idea of what was going to happen and made any. Plus the situation is so unknown that the plans will have to be made up as we go along. Some will be right, some not, and these will need amending in time. However, at least we are making our own plans, not having to accept rules from people who have no idea of our needs. The economy will fluctuate up and down, but since when has it not done that. It is not so long ago the pound nearly reached parity with the euro, and people complained about how they lost money going abroad. That was nothing to do with Brexit then and has only a small part now. We now use the polite term of Quantitive Easing, which is a polite way of describing devaluation, which is what the B of E has just done. So, yes the pound has gone down. The biggest problem as I see it at the moment is Cameron chickening out and resigning. That has created a vacuum and markets and economies hate vacuums. He should have stated he would get Brexit organised and then decide whether to stay or leave. His fit of pique has cost us all. However, the bottom line is that until we trigger Article 50 we are still fully paid up members of the EU and nothing has changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
candapack Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 Brian Kirby - 2016-07-10 12:30 PM This seems to be a glass half empty / glass half full, argument. Optimism (positivity) is a state of mind, as is pessimism (negativity). Realism (rationality) is generally a more useful - though inevitably failure prone - guide to the future than either. I used to be a glass half empty sort of chap. Then I woke up on 24th June to discover that someone had stolen the glass. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 John52 - 2016-07-10 12:19 PM pelmetman - 2016-07-10 9:20 AM I'm not planning on going to the states ;-) Like most commodities Oil and gas are priced in US dollars....... Its just as well the fuel is usually cheaper across the ditch then ;-) ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antony1969 Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 John52 - 2016-07-10 12:16 PM antony1969 - 2016-07-10 9:19 AM work out all by themselves that a £ fall was very likely to happen , then given time it would come back again ... The currency market doesn't work like that Anthony. If traders believed the pound would be back to $1.48 pre Brexit level again next month, it would be $1.48 again today, because they would immediately buy pounds until it reached that level. I think I can work that out fella even if I am a thick leave voter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted July 10, 2016 Author Share Posted July 10, 2016 Dave225 - 2016-07-10 12:53 PM A decision was taken by the UK as a whole in a democratically organised referendum. There are many decisions taken with which I may disagree, but if it is democratically achieved, I have to live with it. The ‘remainers’ who are still whingeing need to realise that. If they did not accept the ‘rules’ then they should have said so before it happened. By continuing they are creating the very chaos they seek to avoid. Some remainers argue the referendum should be void because some Brexiteers were conned by misrepresentations, made up statistics and downright lies like the £350 million to be spent on the NHS instead of the EU *-) Or even that immigrants would be sent home the day after the result *-) Whilst I have a lot of sympathy with that view I don't think it can be allowed because if it was every General Election I can remember would be null and void on the same grounds, and you can't unwind all those. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted July 10, 2016 Author Share Posted July 10, 2016 antony1969 - 2016-07-10 2:04 PM I think I can work that out fella even if I am a thick leave voter But you said the pound would come back again. Some think it will, some think it won't. The average view is where it is now is the right level - 13% less than the day before Brexit was announced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antony1969 Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 John52 - 2016-07-10 2:46 PM antony1969 - 2016-07-10 2:04 PM I think I can work that out fella even if I am a thick leave voter But you said the pound would come back again. Some think it will, some think it won't. The average view is where it is now is the right level - 13% less than the day before Brexit was announced. Average view ... I don't know where or from whom you've come up with the average view so couldn't comment on that . I never put a timescale on the pound 'recovering' to pre-Brexit , I suppose a lot is still up in the air and depends on confidence , we are still only a couple of weeks since the result , in that time we've started the search for a new PM and no decision made when the whole process begins to officially leave , talk off a 2nd referendum desperately wanted by the losers now thankfully officially squashed ... The end of the world didn't happen , your still here the pounds dropped as predicted but history tells us time and time again it will return , suns out cheer up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 I'm happy as Larry..........I dunno what made Larry happy........but bye eke this referendum has put a smug smile on my chops B-) ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 Dave225 - 2016-07-10 12:53 PM A few points to offer. A decision was taken by the UK as a whole in a democratically organised referendum. There are many decisions taken with which I may disagree, but if it is democratically achieved, I have to live with it. The ‘remainers’ who are still whingeing need to realise that. If they did not accept the ‘rules’ then they should have said so before it happened................................... Whinge is a put-down, and is not helpful. This was a little more significant than a football match, when the losers depart whingeing "we was robbed". So, yes, the result was democratically achieved, as one would expect of this country. I'm not arguing with that. What I argue with is this: it is increasingly clear is that unknown numbers of votes were cast on a false prospectus. For example, some voted because they thought we would expel immigrants once we'd left, others voted because that mythical £350 million per week would go to the NHS, others because they believed that we'd gain access to the EEA just as we have it now. One could go on. My further argument is that having decided to run this referendum in 2013, the Conservatives had ample time to do the groundwork so that such misleading claims were countered authoritatively. They did not, merely making inflated counter claims instead. Further, beyond the simple fact of leaving, few really knew what they were voting for: all most knew was what they were voting against. Since by its nature the referendum could only influence the future, asking the electorate to vote blind was about as revealing of its true desires as asking them to pin the tail on the donkey. In addition, the reason for holding the referendum was Conservative fear of UKIP, and had nothing to do with the national interest. When they gained a majority in 2015, they were committed to this course. They had control over the timescale, which they chose; over the question, which they chose; over the majority necessary for finality, which they chose; and for whether or not the referendum outcome would be binding on the government, which they chose. Even from the date of the election they had over a year to prepare the ground. Again, they did not. So, having held their referendum so hopelessly unprepared, the guilty have fallen on their swords. Unhelpful, but richly deserved for being so casually reckless in charge of a country. Regarding questioning the rules beforehand, how, exactly, was that to be done? There was no shortage of argument and commentary on the wisdom of the decision from the outset. Did anyone listen, did anything change? So, I think it fair to say those who disagreed did pose the questions, which went unheard and unanswered. As they say, one can always tell a closed mind - but not much! I am not surprised there are few plans about how we proceed, nobody had any idea of what was going to happen and made any. Plus the situation is so unknown that the plans will have to be made up as we go along. Some will be right, some not, and these will need amending in time........................... This really won't do. There were only two possible outcomes: stay, or leave. Stay needed no planning, so the only thing that needed a plan, was leave. To fail to plan for that outcome, when almost as soon as they confirmed the referendum would take place every commentator and pollster forecast a very tight result, merely amplifies their collective stupidity. It is precisely because the situation was unparalleled, and the potential outcomes so onerous, that an exhaustive risk assessment should have been carried out. Had that been done, there should have been no difficulty in explaining factually the pros and cons of voting to leave, or to stay. Before oil exploration in the North Sea no-one had placed oil rigs in such hostile waters. They did not get there on the basis of making it up as they went along. They were meticulously planned and executed on the basis of the best information and forecasts then available. The results speak for themselves. Ditto the results of failing to plan for a leave vote in the referendum. This was the UK government in charge, after all, with access to almost unlimited resources and information, not some local primary school on a discovery learning exercise. The biggest problem as I see it at the moment is Cameron chickening out and resigning................ . On the basis of the way he conducted the referendum, it's difficult to say whether he made a bigger mess by leaving than he might have by staying. However, the bottom line is that until we trigger Article 50 we are still fully paid up members of the EU and nothing has changed. True. But but only up to that point. Thereafter, unless pressure is maintained, all bets are off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 At the end of the day nothing that any of us can say or do will make a blind bit of difference to the outcome and as we will never know what would have happened had we remained to 'influence' the EU that too is all hypothesis. As it is we may have more influence on how the EU survives or folds from without whilst other nations within watch us trail blaze? Therefore if I cannot affect the outcome I see no point in worrying or whingeing about any of it so I may as well be a glass half full guy who just gets on with living his life and enjoying his retirement years hoping for and expecting the best for his country. Que sera, sera. Simples. Always look on the bright side of life! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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