Brexcuses

[Tracker]

Duplication.

[Brian Kirby]

Up to a point, Lord Copper! :-) On the other hand, if we keep on banging on it will, eventually, have some influence. The internet may well be where a lot blow off steam, but occasionally it gets picked up by journalists and colours their perceptions of what the public think. Neither of my posts above are exactly original thought: both have their echoes in what is being written in papers and said on radio and TV. That encourages me, because those more widely published and broadcast views create the background noise against which governments have to work. If the present government thinks it will get short shrift from the electorate at the next election, it will give them greater pause for thought than if they think we've all just rolled over and gone back to sleep. Personally, I think there will have to be a further referendum (but run properly) or an election, to approve whatever deal the government can reach. In the present climate I admire any politician who genuinely sets out to get a sensible, workable, deal with the EU. But, whoever that may be will need a large proportion of the public visibly backing them if the negotiations are to prove beneficial. Otherwise, why would the EU take any notice of their negotiating stance. So, I just think the background noise is important, and needs to be as loud as it can be made. After all, this is also my country, and I don't want to end up losing it over present negativity about the EU.

[Guest pelmetman]

Brian Kirby - 2016-07-10 5:57 PM

Further, beyond the simple fact of leaving, few really knew what they were voting for: all most knew was what they were voting against. Since by its nature the referendum could only influence the future, asking the electorate to vote blind was about as revealing of its true desires as asking them to pin the tail on the donkey.

 

......and 17 million of the electorate gave the boot to the EU fat Ass B-).........

 

Get over it Brian.....coz if you and the remainers manage to over turn the verdict of the majority then just imagine the consequences 8-) ........

 

 

 

>:-) >:-) >:-) >:-) >:-) >:-) >:-)

 

 

[Dave225]

Brian Kirby - 2016-07-10 5:57 PM

 

Dave225 - 2016-07-10 12:53 PM

 

A few points to offer.

 

A decision was taken by the UK as a whole in a democratically organised referendum. There are many decisions taken with which I may disagree, but if it is democratically achieved, I have to live with it. The ‘remainers’ who are still whingeing need to realise that. If they did not accept the ‘rules’ then they should have said so before it happened...................................

Whinge is a put-down, and is not helpful. This was a little more significant than a football match, when the losers depart whingeing "we was robbed". So, yes, the result was democratically achieved, as one would expect of this country. I'm not arguing with that.

 

What I argue with is this: it is increasingly clear is that unknown numbers of votes were cast on a false prospectus. For example, some voted because they thought we would expel immigrants once we'd left, others voted because that mythical £350 million per week would go to the NHS, others because they believed that we'd gain access to the EEA just as we have it now. One could go on.

 

My further argument is that having decided to run this referendum in 2013, the Conservatives had ample time to do the groundwork so that such misleading claims were countered authoritatively. They did not, merely making inflated counter claims instead.

 

Further, beyond the simple fact of leaving, few really knew what they were voting for: all most knew was what they were voting against. Since by its nature the referendum could only influence the future, asking the electorate to vote blind was about as revealing of its true desires as asking them to pin the tail on the donkey.

 

In addition, the reason for holding the referendum was Conservative fear of UKIP, and had nothing to do with the national interest. When they gained a majority in 2015, they were committed to this course. They had control over the timescale, which they chose; over the question, which they chose; over the majority necessary for finality, which they chose; and for whether or not the referendum outcome would be binding on the government, which they chose. Even from the date of the election they had over a year to prepare the ground. Again, they did not. So, having held their referendum so hopelessly unprepared, the guilty have fallen on their swords. Unhelpful, but richly deserved for being so casually reckless in charge of a country.

 

Regarding questioning the rules beforehand, how, exactly, was that to be done? There was no shortage of argument and commentary on the wisdom of the decision from the outset. Did anyone listen, did anything change? So, I think it fair to say those who disagreed did pose the questions, which went unheard and unanswered. As they say, one can always tell a closed mind - but not much!

 

I am not surprised there are few plans about how we proceed, nobody had any idea of what was going to happen and made any. Plus the situation is so unknown that the plans will have to be made up as we go along. Some will be right, some not, and these will need amending in time..........................

.

This really won't do. There were only two possible outcomes: stay, or leave. Stay needed no planning, so the only thing that needed a plan, was leave. To fail to plan for that outcome, when almost as soon as they confirmed the referendum would take place every commentator and pollster forecast a very tight result, merely amplifies their collective stupidity.

 

It is precisely because the situation was unparalleled, and the potential outcomes so onerous, that an exhaustive risk assessment should have been carried out. Had that been done, there should have been no difficulty in explaining factually the pros and cons of voting to leave, or to stay.

 

Before oil exploration in the North Sea no-one had placed oil rigs in such hostile waters. They did not get there on the basis of making it up as they went along. They were meticulously planned and executed on the basis of the best information and forecasts then available. The results speak for themselves. Ditto the results of failing to plan for a leave vote in the referendum. This was the UK government in charge, after all, with access to almost unlimited resources and information, not some local primary school on a discovery learning exercise.

 

The biggest problem as I see it at the moment is Cameron chickening out and resigning................

.

On the basis of the way he conducted the referendum, it's difficult to say whether he made a bigger mess by leaving than he might have by staying.

 

However, the bottom line is that until we trigger Article 50 we are still fully paid up members of the EU and nothing has changed.

 

True. But but only up to that point. Thereafter, unless pressure is maintained, all bets are off.

 

I tried to insert comments where appropriate, but I am not that clever. so fit them where they need to go.

 

Regarding a false prospectus. There was never any prospectus from either side and anyone daft enough not to see that really needs to open the eyes. One side based the whole argument on us all behaving like sheep and doing what we were told, the other hoped that they could create a stir, but expected the sheep policy to win. We all would have liked reasoned facts but who was actually going to give them? The EU? The Government? What actually happened was that a large number of people outide of the London based bubble said 'stuff you'. Ok, now the London bubble has to make it work, and so far the roof has not fallen in despite the fears.

 

Of course there was no plan. Who would ever expect there to be one. The UK has allowed umpteen nations to become independent and one would assume they knew all that needed to be done, but invariably hiccups or even worse happened along the way. This will be the same, but that does not mean it cannot succeed. Again expecting one displays naivity. Negotiation will now start and if we are streetwise we will get a deal that makes us happy, if not, well what is new?

 

The comments regarding the oil industry in the North Sea are absolute rubbish and I speak as one of the engineers who actually worked there for 17 years. When i started Shell' office was a bungalow and it believed 50/50 that there was a good chance no oil would be found despite all the surveys. 1 year later I was working with 19 rigs and we were designing various platforms for future use. There were a number of different designs because people had no real idea which would work best, so we tried more than one. All worked in various degrees of success but were often modified through the years as problems arose. That occurs in any new enterprise. I could mentiuon platforms requiring years of concreting to prevent them from cracking up as the seabed had not been surveyed correctly, but these were all overcome in time. There have been enough tragedies despite all the planning you can think of, to make us aware that nothing is ever perfect.

 

All I can conclude is that if this decisioon is overturned by those who did not win, then kiss goodby to democracy. It must stand and must be made to work.

[Guest pelmetman]

Frankly "If" Britain can invade Iraq without a plan for what will happen after *-) ........

 

Then I suspect leaving the EU without a plan will be peanuts :D.......

 

 

[Barryd999]

pelmetman - 2016-07-10 8:34 PM

 

Brian Kirby - 2016-07-10 5:57 PM

Further, beyond the simple fact of leaving, few really knew what they were voting for: all most knew was what they were voting against. Since by its nature the referendum could only influence the future, asking the electorate to vote blind was about as revealing of its true desires as asking them to pin the tail on the donkey.

 

......and 17 million of the electorate gave the boot to the EU fat Ass B-).........

 

Get over it Brian.....coz if you and the remainers manage to over turn the verdict of the majority then just imagine the consequences 8-) ........

 

 

 

>:-) >:-) >:-) >:-) >:-) >:-) >:-)

 

 

Remember when George Bush made his famous "Mission Accomplished" Gaff in 2003 and what a knob it made him look when it went on and on and on?

 

We talk about democracy yet all I hear on all the forums is Brexiteers telling pro Europe people to shut up and accept what many of us feel was an undemocratic referendum because it was based on so many lies and promises that all remainers knew were bullsh1t but were gobbled up by the gullible. You cannot expect the voice of millions (half the country really) to not have their say and keep quiet because you think its all over. Thats not very democratic is it?

 

Our voices will be heard far and wide across the nation and if it helps in anyway to stop this nonsense then for me I will be delighted. You talk about consequences if it is overturned. I doubt it. A lot of Brexiteers already feel cheated and as soon as it starts hitting them in the pocket and they wake up and realise that it was all a bad idea they will probably be relieved. Why do you think there appears to be so many delaying tactics?

 

 

[Guest pelmetman]

Barryd999 - 2016-07-10 10:59 PM

 

pelmetman - 2016-07-10 8:34 PM

 

Brian Kirby - 2016-07-10 5:57 PM

Further, beyond the simple fact of leaving, few really knew what they were voting for: all most knew was what they were voting against. Since by its nature the referendum could only influence the future, asking the electorate to vote blind was about as revealing of its true desires as asking them to pin the tail on the donkey.

 

......and 17 million of the electorate gave the boot to the EU fat Ass B-).........

 

Get over it Brian.....coz if you and the remainers manage to over turn the verdict of the majority then just imagine the consequences 8-) ........

 

 

 

>:-) >:-) >:-) >:-) >:-) >:-) >:-)

 

 

Remember when George Bush made his famous "Mission Accomplished" Gaff in 2003 and what a knob it made him look when it went on and on and on?

 

We talk about democracy yet all I hear on all the forums is Brexiteers telling pro Europe people to shut up and accept what many of us feel was an undemocratic referendum because it was based on so many lies and promises that all remainers knew were bullsh1t but were gobbled up by the gullible. You cannot expect the voice of millions (half the country really) to not have their say and keep quiet because you think its all over. Thats not very democratic is it?

 

Our voices will be heard far and wide across the nation and if it helps in anyway to stop this nonsense then for me I will be delighted. You talk about consequences if it is overturned. I doubt it. A lot of Brexiteers already feel cheated and as soon as it starts hitting them in the pocket and they wake up and realise that it was all a bad idea they will probably be relieved. Why do you think there appears to be so many delaying tactics?

 

 

Keep calm......and carry on whinging :D .........

 

 

[Barryd999]

pelmetman - 2016-07-10 11:07 PM

 

Barryd999 - 2016-07-10 10:59 PM

 

pelmetman - 2016-07-10 8:34 PM

 

Brian Kirby - 2016-07-10 5:57 PM

Further, beyond the simple fact of leaving, few really knew what they were voting for: all most knew was what they were voting against. Since by its nature the referendum could only influence the future, asking the electorate to vote blind was about as revealing of its true desires as asking them to pin the tail on the donkey.

 

......and 17 million of the electorate gave the boot to the EU fat Ass B-).........

 

Get over it Brian.....coz if you and the remainers manage to over turn the verdict of the majority then just imagine the consequences 8-) ........

 

 

 

>:-) >:-) >:-) >:-) >:-) >:-) >:-)

 

 

Remember when George Bush made his famous "Mission Accomplished" Gaff in 2003 and what a knob it made him look when it went on and on and on?

 

We talk about democracy yet all I hear on all the forums is Brexiteers telling pro Europe people to shut up and accept what many of us feel was an undemocratic referendum because it was based on so many lies and promises that all remainers knew were bullsh1t but were gobbled up by the gullible. You cannot expect the voice of millions (half the country really) to not have their say and keep quiet because you think its all over. Thats not very democratic is it?

 

Our voices will be heard far and wide across the nation and if it helps in anyway to stop this nonsense then for me I will be delighted. You talk about consequences if it is overturned. I doubt it. A lot of Brexiteers already feel cheated and as soon as it starts hitting them in the pocket and they wake up and realise that it was all a bad idea they will probably be relieved. Why do you think there appears to be so many delaying tactics?

 

 

Keep calm......and carry on whinging :D .........

 

 

Thanks. Its my duty. Somebody on the wildies called me a communist yesterday at least on here I am only classed as a whinger and a sore loser. There was even some reference aimed at me in another thread about out of tune guitar crap guitar playing. The Communist thing was less hurtful. :D

 

I am calm though Dave. I have a secret weapon you see. If all else fails Ill hack the referendum computer and change the result like out of that War Games film. :D

[antony1969]

Barryd999 - 2016-07-10 10:59 PM

 

pelmetman - 2016-07-10 8:34 PM

 

Brian Kirby - 2016-07-10 5:57 PM

Further, beyond the simple fact of leaving, few really knew what they were voting for: all most knew was what they were voting against. Since by its nature the referendum could only influence the future, asking the electorate to vote blind was about as revealing of its true desires as asking them to pin the tail on the donkey.

 

......and 17 million of the electorate gave the boot to the EU fat Ass B-).........

 

Get over it Brian.....coz if you and the remainers manage to over turn the verdict of the majority then just imagine the consequences 8-) ........

 

 

 

>:-) >:-) >:-) >:-) >:-) >:-) >:-)

 

 

Remember when George Bush made his famous "Mission Accomplished" Gaff in 2003 and what a knob it made him look when it went on and on and on?

 

We talk about democracy yet all I hear on all the forums is Brexiteers telling pro Europe people to shut up and accept what many of us feel was an undemocratic referendum because it was based on so many lies and promises that all remainers knew were bullsh1t but were gobbled up by the gullible. You cannot expect the voice of millions (half the country really) to not have their say and keep quiet because you think its all over. Thats not very democratic is it?

 

Our voices will be heard far and wide across the nation and if it helps in anyway to stop this nonsense then for me I will be delighted. You talk about consequences if it is overturned. I doubt it. A lot of Brexiteers already feel cheated and as soon as it starts hitting them in the pocket and they wake up and realise that it was all a bad idea they will probably be relieved. Why do you think there appears to be so many delaying tactics?

 

 

 

Who are these cheated Brexiteers , where are they and why are they feeling cheated ??? .... Honestly I aren't getting that from anyone .... I suppose Barry if your going to the gym all suicidal still over the result and you start going off on one to anyone who might listen then they may feel a little awkward and kind of agree with ya .... Come over to my place and I'll show ya happy smiling faces , everywhere you look people dancing in the streets and its nowt to do with the chemical factory spewing out waste down the street

Really , Im beginning to worry .... honestly if inside yourself you can just admit it actually happened then you can begin the process of moving on and healing , if not drink a bit more than usual

[John52]

antony1969 - 2016-07-10 3:08 PM

 

John52 - 2016-07-10 2:46 PM

 

antony1969 - 2016-07-10 2:04 PM

I think I can work that out fella even if I am a thick leave voter

 

But you said the pound would come back again. Some think it will, some think it won't. The average view is where it is now is the right level - 13% less than the day before Brexit was announced.

 

 

Average view ... I don't know where or from whom you've come up with the average view so couldn't comment on that . I never put a timescale on the pound 'recovering' to pre-Brexit , I suppose a lot is still up in the air and depends on confidence , we are still only a couple of weeks since the result , in that time we've started the search for a new PM and no decision made when the whole process begins to officially leave , talk off a 2nd referendum desperately wanted by the losers now thankfully officially squashed ... The end of the world didn't happen , your still here the pounds dropped as predicted but history tells us time and time again it will return , suns out cheer up

 

Its an over simplification but basically half the traders think the pound is worth more and buy pushing the price up, half think its worth less and sell pushing the price down, so the average view is always where the price is now. So whilst you can find some people saying the pound will recover, and some saying it will fall further, its probably best to take the average view and assume its at the right value now - 13% less than before Brexit was announced.

No the 'end of the world' didn't happen. The immediate effect was a fall in the value of the pound but even that hasn't been felt yet, but it inevitably will as it feeds through to higher prices of imported goods. If the Brexiteers lost 13% of their savings and got a 13% pay cut immediately instead of gradually, they might understand that sooner.

Other effects will take even longer. Britain relies on foreign companies for most of its industry, and they are less likely to invest or expand in Britain if its going to be on the wrong side of trade barriers in a couple of years time...

[John52]

pelmetman - 2016-07-10 9:51 PM

 

Frankly "If" Britain can invade Iraq without a plan for what will happen after *-) ........

 

Then I suspect leaving the EU without a plan .......

 

 

Unfortunately the skills needed to climb the greasy pole of politics are not the same skills needed to run the country

[Tracker]

All these experts all over the world have about as much insight into the future as Mystic Meg.

 

We are where we are - no point in mythering about the destination because even if we had a driver they would not know where their sat nav was sending them until they get there - just sit back, smile a lot and enjoy the ride.

 

Just like Star Trekin' across the universe - we ain't gonna find reverse!

[Guest pelmetman]

John52 - 2016-07-11 7:53 AM

 

Other effects will take even longer. Britain relies on foreign companies for most of its industry, and they are less likely to invest or expand in Britain if its going to be on the wrong side of trade barriers in a couple of years time...

 

So less need for economic migrants, which will mean less strain on our services, schools, housing etc etc ;-) ..........another win win for Brexit :D ........

 

 

[Guest pelmetman]

John52 - 2016-07-11 7:57 AM

 

pelmetman - 2016-07-10 9:51 PM

 

Frankly "If" Britain can invade Iraq without a plan for what will happen after *-) ........

 

Then I suspect leaving the EU without a plan .......

 

 

Unfortunately the skills needed to climb the greasy pole of politics are not the same skills needed to run the country

 

Which is why the UK will prosper regardless of the EU ;-) ..........

 

 

[antony1969]

Theresa May , our next PM seems to be more of a a man than some on here taking into account that she was on the Remain side " some democratically elected politicians have suggested the government should ignore the referendum result and keep Britian inside the EU ... There must be no attempts to remain inside the EU , no attempts to rejoin it by the back door and no second referendum ... The country voted to leave the EU and as PM I will make sure that we leave the EU " ... Let the whingers move on , try getting a replay of last nights game please , I lost a tenner

[StuartO]

antony1969 - 2016-07-11 9:18 AM.... There must be no attempts to remain inside the EU , no attempts to rejoin it by the back door and no second referendum ...

 

Most people seem to be resolved to give leaving a real go, so the idea of a repeat Referendum is not in immediate prospect.  But in a democracy it will always be possible for a decision to overturn a previous one, so insisting that a particular decision must hold forever is incompatible with democracy.

 

[antony1969]

John52 - 2016-07-11 7:53 AM

 

antony1969 - 2016-07-10 3:08 PM

 

John52 - 2016-07-10 2:46 PM

 

antony1969 - 2016-07-10 2:04 PM

I think I can work that out fella even if I am a thick leave voter

 

But you said the pound would come back again. Some think it will, some think it won't. The average view is where it is now is the right level - 13% less than the day before Brexit was announced.

 

 

Average view ... I don't know where or from whom you've come up with the average view so couldn't comment on that . I never put a timescale on the pound 'recovering' to pre-Brexit , I suppose a lot is still up in the air and depends on confidence , we are still only a couple of weeks since the result , in that time we've started the search for a new PM and no decision made when the whole process begins to officially leave , talk off a 2nd referendum desperately wanted by the losers now thankfully officially squashed ... The end of the world didn't happen , your still here the pounds dropped as predicted but history tells us time and time again it will return , suns out cheer up

 

Its an over simplification but basically half the traders think the pound is worth more and buy pushing the price up, half think its worth less and sell pushing the price down, so the average view is always where the price is now. So whilst you can find some people saying the pound will recover, and some saying it will fall further, its probably best to take the average view and assume its at the right value now - 13% less than before Brexit was announced.

No the 'end of the world' didn't happen. The immediate effect was a fall in the value of the pound but even that hasn't been felt yet, but it inevitably will as it feeds through to higher prices of imported goods. If the Brexiteers lost 13% of their savings and got a 13% pay cut immediately instead of gradually, they might understand that sooner.

Other effects will take even longer. Britain relies on foreign companies for most of its industry, and they are less likely to invest or expand in Britain if its going to be on the wrong side of trade barriers in a couple of years time...

 

 

But if that's correct weren't half the traders buying and half selling before Brexit and weren't they gambling on a Remain win and therefore pushing the pound up on a bad gamble , so maybe your 13% drop isn't really 13%

As for who will invest and who won't , both you and I have no idea just like we have no idea what trade deals we will get ... Let's see

[antony1969]

StuartO - 2016-07-11 9:42 AM

antony1969 - 2016-07-11 9:18 AM.... There must be no attempts to remain inside the EU , no attempts to rejoin it by the back door and no second referendum ...

 

Most people seem to be resolved to give leaving a real go, so the idea of a repeat Referendum is not in immediate prospect.  But in a democracy it will always be possible for a decision to overturn a previous one, so insisting that a particular decision must hold forever is incompatible with democracy.

We should have made it a once in a lifetime referendum .... Maybe not if your Queen Nicola , her idea of a lifetime seems to be every couple of years

[Barryd999]

antony1969 - 2016-07-11 9:49 AM

StuartO - 2016-07-11 9:42 AM

antony1969 - 2016-07-11 9:18 AM.... There must be no attempts to remain inside the EU , no attempts to rejoin it by the back door and no second referendum ...

 

Most people seem to be resolved to give leaving a real go, so the idea of a repeat Referendum is not in immediate prospect.  But in a democracy it will always be possible for a decision to overturn a previous one, so insisting that a particular decision must hold forever is incompatible with democracy.

We should have made it a once in a lifetime referendum .... Maybe not if your Queen Nicola , her idea of a lifetime seems to be every couple of years

If it turns out that the government decide that we will leave but opt for a Norway type agreement with access to the single market, paying in and joining Schengen to allow free movement as conditions of that deal what will you think then? Its a genuine question because its a possible if not likely outcome.Will you and the other Brexiteers then think that we would have been better of staying in? will you then think that really we should have another referendum because thats not what we voted for? It will be too late by then though (I think but who knows) as presumably to get to that stage Article 50 would have been triggered and "officially" there is no turning back from that. This scenario is what I mean by the Brexiteers being cheated. I hope you can start to see my point as we voted on something that really nobody knew what exactly we were voting for. All those people in the news clips crying in their beer with joy about getting their country back may yet be in for a shock even if we do "leave". I wont be joyous about that by the way as I think we have all been cheated. With only 1 in 4 MP's supporting Brexit I think we can be certain that even if article 50 is invoked we wont be cutting the ties completely. They have all pretty much said they want the single market despite Boris etc during the campaign saying we didnt need it then back tracking. How will that be achieved without being in the EEA at the least?

[Guest pelmetman]

Barryd999 - 2016-07-11 11:17 AM

antony1969 - 2016-07-11 9:49 AM

StuartO - 2016-07-11 9:42 AM

antony1969 - 2016-07-11 9:18 AM.... There must be no attempts to remain inside the EU , no attempts to rejoin it by the back door and no second referendum ...

 

Most people seem to be resolved to give leaving a real go, so the idea of a repeat Referendum is not in immediate prospect.  But in a democracy it will always be possible for a decision to overturn a previous one, so insisting that a particular decision must hold forever is incompatible with democracy.

We should have made it a once in a lifetime referendum .... Maybe not if your Queen Nicola , her idea of a lifetime seems to be every couple of years

If it turns out that the government decide that we will leave but opt for a Norway type agreement with access to the single market, paying in and joining Schengen to allow free movement as conditions of that deal what will you think then? Its a genuine question because its a possible if not likely outcome.Will you and the other Brexiteers then think that we would have been better of staying in? will you then think that really we should have another referendum because thats not what we voted for? It will be too late by then though (I think but who knows) as presumably to get to that stage Article 50 would have been triggered and "officially" there is no turning back from that. This scenario is what I mean by the Brexiteers being cheated. I hope you can start to see my point as we voted on something that really nobody knew what exactly we were voting for. All those people in the news clips crying in their beer with joy about getting their country back may yet be in for a shock even if we do "leave". I wont be joyous about that by the way as I think we have all been cheated. With only 1 in 4 MP's supporting Brexit I think we can be certain that even if article 50 is invoked we wont be cutting the ties completely. They have all pretty much said they want the single market despite Boris etc during the campaign saying we didnt need it then back tracking. How will that be achieved without being in the EEA at the least?

If any government tries to stitch us up with free movement again.........then I suspect they'll soon get short shrift at the next election ;-) ...........

[candapack]

So Andrea Leadsom has quit the race. Her job was only to get rid of Gove

Theresa May, a Bremainer, will be the new PM.

The old PM stood down because he didn't think a Bremainer was the right person to lead Britain through a Brexit.

Stitch up?

 

 

[antony1969]

pelmetman - 2016-07-11 11:54 AM

Barryd999 - 2016-07-11 11:17 AM

antony1969 - 2016-07-11 9:49 AM

StuartO - 2016-07-11 9:42 AM

antony1969 - 2016-07-11 9:18 AM.... There must be no attempts to remain inside the EU , no attempts to rejoin it by the back door and no second referendum ...

 

Most people seem to be resolved to give leaving a real go, so the idea of a repeat Referendum is not in immediate prospect.  But in a democracy it will always be possible for a decision to overturn a previous one, so insisting that a particular decision must hold forever is incompatible with democracy.

We should have made it a once in a lifetime referendum .... Maybe not if your Queen Nicola , her idea of a lifetime seems to be every couple of years

If it turns out that the government decide that we will leave but opt for a Norway type agreement with access to the single market, paying in and joining Schengen to allow free movement as conditions of that deal what will you think then? Its a genuine question because its a possible if not likely outcome.Will you and the other Brexiteers then think that we would have been better of staying in? will you then think that really we should have another referendum because thats not what we voted for? It will be too late by then though (I think but who knows) as presumably to get to that stage Article 50 would have been triggered and "officially" there is no turning back from that. This scenario is what I mean by the Brexiteers being cheated. I hope you can start to see my point as we voted on something that really nobody knew what exactly we were voting for. All those people in the news clips crying in their beer with joy about getting their country back may yet be in for a shock even if we do "leave". I wont be joyous about that by the way as I think we have all been cheated. With only 1 in 4 MP's supporting Brexit I think we can be certain that even if article 50 is invoked we wont be cutting the ties completely. They have all pretty much said they want the single market despite Boris etc during the campaign saying we didnt need it then back tracking. How will that be achieved without being in the EEA at the least?

If any government tries to stitch us up with free movement again.........then I suspect they'll soon get short shrift at the next election ;-) ...........

We haven't been cheated Barry ... You just don't like the result , but that's life Our Theresa couldn't be clearer you ain't getting a 2nd referendum and we are leaving the EU Looks like the Tory leadership is decided so maybe now we can move on a little quicker and get Article 50 invoked ... Let's crack on

[Barryd999]

antony1969 - 2016-07-11 12:29 PM

pelmetman - 2016-07-11 11:54 AM

Barryd999 - 2016-07-11 11:17 AM

antony1969 - 2016-07-11 9:49 AM

StuartO - 2016-07-11 9:42 AM

antony1969 - 2016-07-11 9:18 AM.... There must be no attempts to remain inside the EU , no attempts to rejoin it by the back door and no second referendum ...

 

Most people seem to be resolved to give leaving a real go, so the idea of a repeat Referendum is not in immediate prospect.  But in a democracy it will always be possible for a decision to overturn a previous one, so insisting that a particular decision must hold forever is incompatible with democracy.

We should have made it a once in a lifetime referendum .... Maybe not if your Queen Nicola , her idea of a lifetime seems to be every couple of years

If it turns out that the government decide that we will leave but opt for a Norway type agreement with access to the single market, paying in and joining Schengen to allow free movement as conditions of that deal what will you think then? Its a genuine question because its a possible if not likely outcome.Will you and the other Brexiteers then think that we would have been better of staying in? will you then think that really we should have another referendum because thats not what we voted for? It will be too late by then though (I think but who knows) as presumably to get to that stage Article 50 would have been triggered and "officially" there is no turning back from that. This scenario is what I mean by the Brexiteers being cheated. I hope you can start to see my point as we voted on something that really nobody knew what exactly we were voting for. All those people in the news clips crying in their beer with joy about getting their country back may yet be in for a shock even if we do "leave". I wont be joyous about that by the way as I think we have all been cheated. With only 1 in 4 MP's supporting Brexit I think we can be certain that even if article 50 is invoked we wont be cutting the ties completely. They have all pretty much said they want the single market despite Boris etc during the campaign saying we didnt need it then back tracking. How will that be achieved without being in the EEA at the least?

If any government tries to stitch us up with free movement again.........then I suspect they'll soon get short shrift at the next election ;-) ...........

We haven't been cheated Barry ... You just don't like the result , but that's life Our Theresa couldn't be clearer you ain't getting a 2nd referendum and we are leaving the EU Looks like the Tory leadership is decided so maybe now we can move on a little quicker and get Article 50 invoked ... Let's crack on

We all now know Pollys say one thing one day and back peddle the next. She is hardly going to say right now that well actually we wont be leaving but it might well be out of her hands anywayhttp://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/11/brexit-parliament-should-make-ultimate-decision-on-whether-to-leave-eu-barristers-say?CMP=fb_guAnd the first legal attempt to prevent Brexit. http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/08/legal-attempt-prevent-brexit-preliminary-hearing-article-50The campaign to prevent Brexit it appears is gathering a good head of steam.

[malc d]

candapack - 2016-07-11 12:22 PM

 

So Andrea Leadsom has quit the race. Her job was only to get rid of Gove

Theresa May, a Bremainer, will be the new PM.

The old PM stood down because he didn't think a Bremainer was the right person to lead Britain through a Brexit.

Stitch up?

 

 

 

No stitch- up.

 

I think Theresa May played her hand very well.

 

Stayed pretty quiet during the campaign - probably realising that David Cameron was screwing it all up - and can now step in and take over - as there are no obvious alternate choices in the Tory party.

 

I'm just relieved that Cameron is going - his constant PR spin was very irritating.

 

 

;-)

[antony1969]

Barryd999 - 2016-07-11 1:00 PM

antony1969 - 2016-07-11 12:29 PM

pelmetman - 2016-07-11 11:54 AM

Barryd999 - 2016-07-11 11:17 AM

antony1969 - 2016-07-11 9:49 AM

StuartO - 2016-07-11 9:42 AM

antony1969 - 2016-07-11 9:18 AM.... There must be no attempts to remain inside the EU , no attempts to rejoin it by the back door and no second referendum ...

 

Most people seem to be resolved to give leaving a real go, so the idea of a repeat Referendum is not in immediate prospect.  But in a democracy it will always be possible for a decision to overturn a previous one, so insisting that a particular decision must hold forever is incompatible with democracy.

We should have made it a once in a lifetime referendum .... Maybe not if your Queen Nicola , her idea of a lifetime seems to be every couple of years

If it turns out that the government decide that we will leave but opt for a Norway type agreement with access to the single market, paying in and joining Schengen to allow free movement as conditions of that deal what will you think then? Its a genuine question because its a possible if not likely outcome.Will you and the other Brexiteers then think that we would have been better of staying in? will you then think that really we should have another referendum because thats not what we voted for? It will be too late by then though (I think but who knows) as presumably to get to that stage Article 50 would have been triggered and "officially" there is no turning back from that. This scenario is what I mean by the Brexiteers being cheated. I hope you can start to see my point as we voted on something that really nobody knew what exactly we were voting for. All those people in the news clips crying in their beer with joy about getting their country back may yet be in for a shock even if we do "leave". I wont be joyous about that by the way as I think we have all been cheated. With only 1 in 4 MP's supporting Brexit I think we can be certain that even if article 50 is invoked we wont be cutting the ties completely. They have all pretty much said they want the single market despite Boris etc during the campaign saying we didnt need it then back tracking. How will that be achieved without being in the EEA at the least?

If any government tries to stitch us up with free movement again.........then I suspect they'll soon get short shrift at the next election ;-) ...........

We haven't been cheated Barry ... You just don't like the result , but that's life Our Theresa couldn't be clearer you ain't getting a 2nd referendum and we are leaving the EU Looks like the Tory leadership is decided so maybe now we can move on a little quicker and get Article 50 invoked ... Let's crack on

We all now know Pollys say one thing one day and back peddle the next. She is hardly going to say right now that well actually we wont be leaving but it might well be out of her hands anywayhttp://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/11/brexit-parliament-should-make-ultimate-decision-on-whether-to-leave-eu-barristers-say?CMP=fb_guAnd the first legal attempt to prevent Brexit. http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/08/legal-attempt-prevent-brexit-preliminary-hearing-article-50The campaign to prevent Brexit it appears is gathering a good head of steam.

So you mean even more mis-information we've been given about leaving , I'm getting dizzy Those barristers , not human rights lawyers are they by any chance ???